Penn OCI

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:32 pm

From past conversations with 2Ls and 3Ls, it seems like your top 30 bids are the only ones that really matter in terms of likelihood of getting a screener. So, if I'm aiming for DC with what I expect to be slightly above median grades (with NY as the second-choice result), how many of my top 30 slots should be for DC firms? Half, but reserve most, if not all, of the rest of my bids for NY?

Edit: By half, I don't mean literally 1-15 DC, 16-30 NY, but more like 5 DC firms in my top 10, another 5 in the 11-20 slots, and another 5 from 21-30, or something roughly along those lines.

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Nelson
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:From past conversations with 2Ls and 3Ls, it seems like your top 30 bids are the only ones that really matter in terms of likelihood of getting a screener. So, if I'm aiming for DC with what I expect to be slightly above median grades (with NY as the second-choice result), how many of my top 30 slots should be for DC firms? Half, but reserve most, if not all, of the rest of my bids for NY?

Edit: By half, I don't mean literally 1-15 DC, 16-30 NY, but more like 5 DC firms in my top 10, another 5 in the 11-20 slots, and another 5 from 21-30, or something roughly along those lines.

You're wasting bids on most DC firms unless your grades are significantly better than median. I wouldn't use more than a handful of your top bids on DC. You need to use those for the popular NYC firms.

Don't be one of the people midway through OCI who wishes they bid more NYC.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby OutCold » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:26 am

Agree with Nelson. I'll add that if you are dead set on DC, at least prioritize big summer classes at less selective firms. Every bid you spend on DC takes away from NY firms that you are likely to be more competitive at.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:33 am

OutCold wrote:Agree with Nelson. I'll add that if you are dead set on DC, at least prioritize big summer classes at less selective firms. Every bid you spend on DC takes away from NY firms that you are likely to be more competitive at.

Yeah I mean the thing is with DC is that big class sizes at non selective firms don't exist. The big class sizes are at Cov, Wilmer, etc. where top grades and law review are virtually required. The non selective firms have mostly around ten summers or less.

Don't bid heavy on DC without top grades (and probably law review). People got burned doing it last year.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:40 am

Nelson wrote:
OutCold wrote:Agree with Nelson. I'll add that if you are dead set on DC, at least prioritize big summer classes at less selective firms. Every bid you spend on DC takes away from NY firms that you are likely to be more competitive at.

Yeah I mean the thing is with DC is that big class sizes at non selective firms don't exist. The big class sizes are at Cov, Wilmer, etc. where top grades and law review are virtually required. The non selective firms have mostly around ten summers or less.

Don't bid heavy on DC without top grades (and probably law review). People got burned doing it last year.



Good to know. All this has me thinking I may bid no more than a small handful (3-5) of DC firms just to feel like I gave it some possibility of happening, but devote the vast majority of my bids to NY. If my grades come back less anything less than top 10-20% of class, and/or if I don't make LR, I will probably not waste time bidding DC at all.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:05 pm

Either B+ or A- average at Penn - still missing a grade - targeting Philly and Wilmington. Want to do litigation. Should I even bother ranking firms like Conrad O'Brien, Stradley Ronan, or Morris Nichols that don't seem to have hired any Penn grads in years or extended any callback invitations?
What about firms that do primarily transactional and don't seem to have much of a litigation practice?

Not sure whether my bids and time would be better spent trying for these places, or focusing on lit firms that actually hire Penn grads (Ballard, Cozen, Pepper, etc.) and using the rest of my bids to secure backup offers in NYC.

Also not really sure how to do this rank order. With the places like Dechert or Potter that had 80-100% successful bids last year, do I need to place them in my top ten, or would I be safe ranking them in the teens or twenties? I don't want to "waste" top 10 slots on firms that seem to have plenty of invites to spare, but at the same token I don't want to miss out on an interview given how few Philly firms there are to begin with.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Should I even bother ranking firms like Conrad O'Brien, Stradley Ronan, or Morris Nichols that don't seem to have hired any Penn grads in years or extended any callback invitations?

Not sure whether my bids and time would be better spent trying for these places, or focusing on lit firms that actually hire Penn grads (Ballard, Cozen, Pepper, etc.) and using the rest of my bids to secure backup offers in NYC.

Pepper routinely hires from Penn. In the last year or two O’Brien has turned to Penn, possibly because they have been rapidly expanding throughout the state. Looks like they’re in Jersey too.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Either B+ or A- average at Penn - still missing a grade - targeting Philly and Wilmington. Want to do litigation. Should I even bother ranking firms like Conrad O'Brien, Stradley Ronan, or Morris Nichols that don't seem to have hired any Penn grads in years or extended any callback invitations?
What about firms that do primarily transactional and don't seem to have much of a litigation practice?

Not sure whether my bids and time would be better spent trying for these places, or focusing on lit firms that actually hire Penn grads (Ballard, Cozen, Pepper, etc.) and using the rest of my bids to secure backup offers in NYC.

Also not really sure how to do this rank order. With the places like Dechert or Potter that had 80-100% successful bids last year, do I need to place them in my top ten, or would I be safe ranking them in the teens or twenties? I don't want to "waste" top 10 slots on firms that seem to have plenty of invites to spare, but at the same token I don't want to miss out on an interview given how few Philly firms there are to begin with.

Some of the Wilmington firms have definitively made offers, though some of that may have been outside of OCI. You don't need to bid the Philly firms with a lot of slots in the top 10. Dechert, MLB, Pepper could all be had with bids in the 20s last year.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:47 pm

Does anyone have an idea how low we can rank the big NY firms with a lot of interview slots (e.g. Shearman & Sterling with 80 slots and a 50% bid success rate last year) and still be confident that we'll get an interview?

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone have an idea how low we can rank the big NY firms with a lot of interview slots (e.g. Shearman & Sterling with 80 slots and a 50% bid success rate last year) and still be confident that we'll get an interview?


I wish we had some kind of formula for these. CP&P tells us nothing about the algorithm and we have such limited data available for making these decisions.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone have an idea how low we can rank the big NY firms with a lot of interview slots (e.g. Shearman & Sterling with 80 slots and a 50% bid success rate last year) and still be confident that we'll get an interview?


I wish we had some kind of formula for these. CP&P tells us nothing about the algorithm and we have such limited data available for making these decisions.


There is no "algorithm" or "formula" because it's a combination of slot size and subjective popularity, so this isn't a CP&P fail. They're helping you assess the latter with the percentage the best they can. A popular firm with eighty slots will need to be placed higher than a less popular firm with eighty slots.

It can be as wide as one firm needing to be bid top 5 to have a shot and the other firm needing to be bid top 25.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone have an idea how low we can rank the big NY firms with a lot of interview slots (e.g. Shearman & Sterling with 80 slots and a 50% bid success rate last year) and still be confident that we'll get an interview?


I wish we had some kind of formula for these. CP&P tells us nothing about the algorithm and we have such limited data available for making these decisions.

LOL what? It's a simple draft, but with ties decided by lottery. They place everyone in their 1 firm and then their 2 firm and so on. Once a firm is full, no one who bid them lower gets a screener. If there are ties, e.g. more people put Dewey Cheatem at 3 than there are remaining slots, it's random among the people who put that firm at that number.

The success rate tells you how many people bid that firm got a screener last year. This varies year to year because some years certain firms/cities are more popular than others.

You should focus more on the number of slots and selectivity than anything else. Slot size is the most important factor, but selectivity matters too. Firms with tons of slots are available later than firms with fewer. But nonselective firms will attract more bids. So even though Shearman, Paul Weiss, and Cravath all have approximately the same number of slots, you need to bid Shearman higher than Paul Weiss, and Paul Weiss higher than Cravath, because the firms that aren't as grade selective will attract more attention.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:11 pm

PennBull wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone have an idea how low we can rank the big NY firms with a lot of interview slots (e.g. Shearman & Sterling with 80 slots and a 50% bid success rate last year) and still be confident that we'll get an interview?


I wish we had some kind of formula for these. CP&P tells us nothing about the algorithm and we have such limited data available for making these decisions.


There is no "algorithm" or "formula" because it's a combination of slot size and subjective popularity, so this isn't a CP&P fail. They're helping you assess the latter with the percentage the best they can. A popular firm with eighty slots will need to be placed higher than a less popular firm with eighty slots.

It can be as wide as one firm needing to be bid top 5 to have a shot and the other firm needing to be bid top 25.


Nelson wrote:LOL what? It's a simple draft, but with ties decided by lottery. They place everyone in their 1 firm and then their 2 firm and so on. Once a firm is full, no one who bid them lower gets a screener. If there are ties, e.g. more people put Dewey Cheatem at 3 than there are remaining slots, it's random among the people who put that firm at that number.

The success rate tells you how many people bid that firm got a screener last year. This varies year to year because some years certain firms/cities are more popular than others.

You should focus more on the number of slots and selectivity than anything else. Slot size is the most important factor, but selectivity matters too. Firms with tons of slots are available later than firms with fewer. But nonselective firms will attract more bids. So even though Shearman, Paul Weiss, and Cravath all have approximately the same number of slots, you need to bid Shearman higher than Paul Weiss, and Paul Weiss higher than Cravath, because the firms that aren't as grade selective will attract more attention.


Ok, that's simpler than I realized. So if Firm A has 20 slots, and 20 students select that firm as their #1 bid, those 20 students will get the 20 slots, even if another 50 students ranked Firm A as their #2 bid?

Basically I just wasn't aware the lottery aspect was only for tie breakers. The student org OCI panels I attended stated that ranking a firm higher gives you more lottery "tickets" - a higher percentage chance of getting it - but doesn't necessarily guarantee you the spot against someone who ranked it lower.
This misinformation, if it is misinformation, seems to be very widespread.

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Nelson
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:30 pm

I am 99% sure it works as I described (unless they made some weird change this year). It's not like the NBA draft. If you bid the firm higher you get it over anyone who bid it lower than you.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:03 pm

Nelson wrote:I am 99% sure it works as I described (unless they made some weird change this year). It's not like the NBA draft. If you bid the firm higher you get it over anyone who bid it lower than you.


And I mean even if it isn't, there's no reason to approach it any other way.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby OutCold » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:20 pm

Regardless of the mechanism, you need to be weighing supply and demand. That's really all there is to it. I also kept an eye on the percentage of callbacks firms were giving out and, subsequently, the amount of offers that were being extended. I wasn't too far above median at the time, so it was all about maximizing callbacks.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:40 pm

how effed am i for oci with: B, B, B+, B, B-, B-, B-. 4 years higher level work experience, strong interviewer, do i have any hope of getting callbacks or even an offer if i'm not too selective about geography? or should i prep myself for joblessness?

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:how effed am i for oci with: B, B, B+, B, B-, B-, B-. 4 years higher level work experience, strong interviewer, do i have any hope of getting callbacks or even an offer if i'm not too selective about geography? or should i prep myself for joblessness?


Bid NY, get as many interviews as possible off the schedule, start mailing.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:15 am

any thoughts about which firms I should not waste a bid on? (good interview skills, awesome in-house summer gig, K-JD)

H, A+, A, A-, B+, B+, B+, B+

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:any thoughts about which firms I should not waste a bid on? (good interview skills, awesome in-house summer gig, K-JD)

H, A+, A, A-, B+, B+, B+, B+

Impossible to answer without more info on goals and market.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:30 am

FYI saying you have "good interview skills" means absolutely nothing.

a.) Most other people do, so it's not like you're really making yourself stand out, and b.) you may be completely incorrect about your interview "skills."

"But I'm a special snowflake who REALLY IS good at interviewing!"

Doesn't matter; what matters are your grades and your substantive experience. As long as you sound like a functional human being the first two are going to be what matters. Your "good interview skills" aren't going to make anyone be like "oh then you should apply ANYWHERE!"

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby OutCold » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:33 am

PennBull wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:how effed am i for oci with: B, B, B+, B, B-, B-, B-. 4 years higher level work experience, strong interviewer, do i have any hope of getting callbacks or even an offer if i'm not too selective about geography? or should i prep myself for joblessness?


Bid NY, get as many interviews as possible off the schedule, start mailing.

Yes, mail every firm in every market you can conceivably stretch some sort of tie to. Then mail markets with no ties if you have the time.

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Nelson
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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Nelson » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:how effed am i for oci with: B, B, B+, B, B-, B-, B-. 4 years higher level work experience, strong interviewer, do i have any hope of getting callbacks or even an offer if i'm not too selective about geography? or should i prep myself for joblessness?

You should be prepared to not get anything from OCI. It's worth mass mailing, focus on smaller places. I would plan to stack your schedule with internships and maximize your practical experience to try to make yourself attractive to small firms and state government jobs.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby PennBull » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:12 am

Nelson wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:how effed am i for oci with: B, B, B+, B, B-, B-, B-. 4 years higher level work experience, strong interviewer, do i have any hope of getting callbacks or even an offer if i'm not too selective about geography? or should i prep myself for joblessness?

You should be prepared to not get anything from OCI. It's worth mass mailing, focus on smaller places. I would plan to stack your schedule with internships and maximize your practical experience to try to make yourself attractive to small firms and state government jobs.


Great advice. Check out the Legal Employment section of TLS. They have lots of advice for off-OCI job searching.

I mean this earnestly: you're off to a great start by preparing now. Better than bitching about it come late October.

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Re: Penn OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:11 pm

PennBull wrote:
Nelson wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:how effed am i for oci with: B, B, B+, B, B-, B-, B-. 4 years higher level work experience, strong interviewer, do i have any hope of getting callbacks or even an offer if i'm not too selective about geography? or should i prep myself for joblessness?

You should be prepared to not get anything from OCI. It's worth mass mailing, focus on smaller places. I would plan to stack your schedule with internships and maximize your practical experience to try to make yourself attractive to small firms and state government jobs.


Great advice. Check out the Legal Employment section of TLS. They have lots of advice for off-OCI job searching.

I mean this earnestly: you're off to a great start by preparing now. Better than bitching about it come late October.


Prepare to strike out. People with better grades do. Same advice as above. Start early. Apply to all jobs that don't ask for transcripts upfront. Bid firms that don't care about grades and highlight your work experience like crazy during OCI. Look at your resume, especially given said work experience. I mean really look at it and think about the types of employers that are going to value the type of experience you have and target them both in OCI and outside of OCI. Internships/extracurriculars are your friend (as mentioned above). Gun 2L and get those grades up.




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