I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

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CaptainLeela
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby CaptainLeela » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:28 pm

With the clear understanding that I fully respect the prohibition against posting as a 0L in this forum, I'm violating that rule in this instance. I apologize in advance, but I feel like I'm the "target" of these comments, particularly as a 0L.

I've read the student forums regularly for the last ~6 months or so. They seem even more helpful than the application ones, as they have more constructive advice, clear feedback/results, and the stakes are certainly higher. Obviously you don't feel the same way. That's fine! However, you've stormed in, attempted to invalidate the information, and mocked other posters, without giving a single piece of constructive information or advice.

What kind of a job do you have? How did you find it? What did you do that was so critical in differentiating yourself? What alternatives do you suggest to the advice here? The one sentence you included about being earnest & making a good impression doesn't really help me or any rising 1L/2L answer these questions in a meaningful way.

TLS can be extremely receptive to constructive criticism, but you're akin to "that guy" in every workplace who shits on every suggestion, while never presenting a single idea of his own, yet clings to his owns brilliance as everyone else is clearly an idiot, since their ideas are stupid. It's easy to criticize, but if you want that criticism to be seen as valid & respected you almost always have to present some sort of alternative solution or idea.

While I'm a 0L who knows NOTHING about legal hiring, you're not exactly garnering much credibility as an alternative to the "fear mongering 95%" by name calling without adding anything constructive to the dialogue
Last edited by CaptainLeela on Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NYstate
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby NYstate » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:28 pm

johnpierce14 wrote:Anecdotal evidence is exactly what threads like these need.

Not sure if you at being sarcastic. I specifically asked about his experience because I wanted to know. I am only familiar with biglaw and I don't know much about smaller firms.

The number of people getting hired into biglaw is what, a few thousand at most? Government is barely hiring and same with PI. I think it is useful to hear from people who get jobs at small firms. The focus on credentials seems to not be as grade-based and maybe more experience based? Can't tell.

After a certain point(biglaw, clerkships), grades no longer seem to be the determining factor. So who knows how relevant class standing is to getting a job.

I can't tell if OP is just a lucky guy or if other people from schools like his and with his rank are finding decent jobs.

Stinson
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Stinson » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:29 pm

Is there any way to tell whether OP is an alt of a Cooley admissions officer?

Hero2013
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Hero2013 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:32 pm

Hhhhhmm, is that right?

User was outed and banned for anon abuse and posting in Employment as a 0L.

NYstate
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby NYstate » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:32 pm

CaptainLeela wrote:With the clear understanding that I fully respect the prohibition against posting as a 0L in this forum, I'm violating that rule in this instance. I apologize in advance, but I feel like I'm the "target" of these comments, particularly as a 0L.

I've read the student forums regularly for the last ~6 months or so. They seem even more helpful than the application ones, as they have more constructive advice, clear feedback/results, and the stakes are certainly higher. Obviously you don't feel the same way. That's fine! However, you've stormed in, attempted to invalidate the information, and mocked other posters, without giving a single piece of constructive information or advice.

What kind of a job do you have? How did you find it? What did you do that was so critical in differentiating yourself? What alternatives do you suggest to the advice here? The one sentence you included about being earnest & making a good impression doesn't really help me or any rising 1L/2L answer these questions in a meaningful way.

TLS can be extremely receptive to constructive criticism, but you're akin to "that guy" in every workplace who shits on every suggestion, while never presenting a single idea of his own, yet clings to his owns brilliance as everyone else is clearly an idiot, since their ideas are stupid. It's easy to criticize, but if you want that criticism to be seen as valid & respected you almost always have to present some sort of alternative solution or idea.

While I'm a 0L who knows NOTHING about legal hiring, you're not exactly garnering much credibility as an alternative to the "fear mongering 95%" by name calling.


The rule is there for a reason. Why is this hard to understand? Just start another thread in th appropriate place if you need to.

Sorry, not a moderator . This is just my opinion. I'm curious as to OP found a job and how representative he may be.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby FeelTheHeat » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hhhhhmm, is that right?


solid anon use

NYstate
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby NYstate » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:37 pm

Stinson wrote:Is there any way to tell whether OP is an alt of a Cooley admissions officer?


??

OP went to a top 30 school. He is trying to say it is possible to find work even below median. I'm probably the only one who cares about his story, but I think the next batch of no- offered and laid off people might want to know something about getting jobs in small firms. Most people on TLS aren't going to end up in biglaw no matter how much they plan on it.

Maybe his tone is objectionable but tone seems to not matter much on TLS.
Last edited by NYstate on Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby FeelTheHeat » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:38 pm

NYstate wrote:
Stinson wrote:Is there any way to tell whether OP is an alt of a Cooley admissions officer?


??

OP went to a top 20 school. He is trying to say it is possible to find work even below median. I'm probably the only one who cares about his story, but I think the next batch of no- offered and laid off people might want to know something about getting jobs in small firms. Most people on TLS aren't going to end up in biglaw no matter how much they plan on it.

Maybe his tone is objectionable but tone seems to not matter much on TLS.


no one says you can't get a job below median

statistics how do they work

NYstate
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby NYstate » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:41 pm

FeelTheHeat wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Stinson wrote:Is there any way to tell whether OP is an alt of a Cooley admissions officer?


??

OP went to a top 20 school. He is trying to say it is possible to find work even below median. I'm probably the only one who cares about his story, but I think the next batch of no- offered and laid off people might want to know something about getting jobs in small firms. Most people on TLS aren't going to end up in biglaw no matter how much they plan on it.

Maybe his tone is objectionable but tone seems to not matter much on TLS.


no one says you can't get a job below median

statistics how do they work


Really? I've seen many people advised to drop out if below median because they won't find a job. I don't know anyone in OPs position. Maybe the chances of getting a job from below median are so low that people should drop out. I don't think LST correlates grades with jobs. I just assumed that correlation existed so the jobs went to above median people first. But that assumption is not true outside of grade conscious biglaw.
Last edited by NYstate on Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby FeelTheHeat » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:43 pm

it's a reasonable conclusion based on probabilities

let's try this

"it's probably in your best interest to drop out because the probability you find a job that will enable you to pay back the debt you will have accumulated is extremely low"

AllTheLawz
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby AllTheLawz » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:45 pm

I think what the OP really points out is the difference expectations make. OP is happy having $120k+ in debt without getting biglaw (I'm actually not sure if he is making biglaw money at a non-biglaw firm so just generalizing). Personally, I would consider it a questionable decision if I grossed less than my total debt my first year. It also sounds like the OP is taking a 10-year repayment approach. Most people I know, including myself, are approaching repayment as a 5-year or less goal so that also changes things.

NYstate
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby NYstate » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:49 pm

FeelTheHeat wrote:it's a reasonable conclusion based on probabilities

let's try this

"it's probably in your best interest to drop out because the probability you find a job that will enable you to pay back the debt you will have accumulated is extremely low"


How do you know that small firms are only hiring from above median?

Hero2013
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Hero2013 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:50 pm

FeelTheHeat wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hhhhhmm, is that right?


solid anon use


Hmmmmm, is that right?

User was outed for anon abuse.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby FeelTheHeat » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:52 pm

NYstate wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:it's a reasonable conclusion based on probabilities

let's try this

"it's probably in your best interest to drop out because the probability you find a job that will enable you to pay back the debt you will have accumulated is extremely low"


How do you know that small firms are only hiring from above median?


wut

Stinson
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Stinson » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:53 pm

NYstate wrote:
Stinson wrote:Is there any way to tell whether OP is an alt of a Cooley admissions officer?


??

OP went to a top 30 school. He is trying to say it is possible to find work even below median. I'm probably the only one who cares about his story, but I think the next batch of no- offered and laid off people might want to know something about getting jobs in small firms. Most people on TLS aren't going to end up in biglaw no matter how much they plan on it.

Maybe his tone is objectionable but tone seems to not matter much on TLS.


Then OP is welcome to make a thread offering up his wisdom to people in that position, not trying to lead 0L's into making bad decisions with anecdotes.

Paul Campos
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Paul Campos » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:44 pm

The OP's post and replies in the thread illustrate a couple of very common psychological reactions/defense mechanisms, that I think are related in an interesting way.

(1) A basic refusal, at a psychological/emotional level, to accept the validity of statistically-based arguments. The OP no doubt understands that if half the graduates of a law school don't get jobs as lawyers that means the chances of not getting a legal job for graduates of that school is 50%, but, if he gets a legal job, this reasoning no longer applies, since the odds of him getting a job are now reinterpreted as 100%. After all, now he isn't a statistic, he's a "success."

(2) An overwhelming desire to give a moralized interpretation to statistical outcomes. If half his classmates didn't get legal jobs while he did, even though he wasn't an obvious candidate to get a job (not top 10% etc), then that must mean that they failed to do what he did to get a job (key terms: "hustle," "network").

This is all tied up with cultural imperatives to treat social outcomes as reflections of merit, as opposed to cronyism and other forms of unearned privilege, and most of all sheer random luck.

mrsmartypants
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby mrsmartypants » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:01 pm

Leading to (3) a false determinism of the form "X was the outcome in my situation, so X is foreordained for everyone similarly situated."

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20160810
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby 20160810 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:02 pm

Dude probably works at a foreclosure mill

RodneyRuxin
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby RodneyRuxin » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:03 pm

Did the TLS-induced freak out cause you to hustle to find a job? Probably. I think you should be thanking the community. Just be glad you're not unemployed like the other half of your classmates.

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Bikeflip
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Bikeflip » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:21 pm

Stinson wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Stinson wrote:Is there any way to tell whether OP is an alt of a Cooley admissions officer?


??

OP went to a top 30 school. He is trying to say it is possible to find work even below median. I'm probably the only one who cares about his story, but I think the next batch of no- offered and laid off people might want to know something about getting jobs in small firms. Most people on TLS aren't going to end up in biglaw no matter how much they plan on it.

Maybe his tone is objectionable but tone seems to not matter much on TLS.


Then OP is welcome to make a thread offering up his wisdom to people in that position, not trying to lead 0L's into making bad decisions with anecdotes.

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Agoraphobia
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Agoraphobia » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:22 pm

I might be overly cynical, but I don't think one thing OP posted was true. I think he's just someone bored trying to get reactions out of people.

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stillwater
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby stillwater » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:32 pm

.
Last edited by stillwater on Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby PDaddy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
johnpierce14 wrote:There are some helpful threads - like the procedural/mechanical aspects of looking for a job - but don't believe anything you believe on these forums. It's just fear mongering at its most disgusting level. This is the fox news of internet forums.

I was caught up in here for a while, then things worked out excellent for me (top 30 school, bottom half) and I feel FOOLISH for being stressed out by what I would read here on a nightly basis.

Unbelievable. These threads in the legal employment section epitomize why law school sucks, you're a masochist if you read too much into what some of these people claim.


Agreed.

Everyone said getting a job "ITE" would be hard, but then I wound up first in my class and it was really easy. I can't believe all the fear mongering... everybody should just do what I did: be first in your class. That's really all it took for me.

Now I work for a great firm. Sure, I have a ton of friends who are unemployed or underemployed, and sure it's dramatically worse at lower ranked schools than at top schools. But I really think everything could have worked out for people if they'd just been first in their class.


+1 :roll: Exactly! Just be first in your class and everything will work out. Forget about aggregate statistics...why do those matter? After all, a potential law student about to spend between $50-200K on his education should never worry about the odds of ever being employed, debt-free and happy, right?

Silly us!

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PDaddy
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby PDaddy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:50 pm

Paul Campos wrote:The OP's post and replies in the thread illustrate a couple of very common psychological reactions/defense mechanisms, that I think are related in an interesting way.

(1) A basic refusal, at a psychological/emotional level, to accept the validity of statistically-based arguments. The OP no doubt understands that if half the graduates of a law school don't get jobs as lawyers that means the chances of not getting a legal job for graduates of that school is 50%, but, if he gets a legal job, this reasoning no longer applies, since the odds of him getting a job are now reinterpreted as 100%. After all, now he isn't a statistic, he's a "success."

(2) An overwhelming desire to give a moralized interpretation to statistical outcomes. If half his classmates didn't get legal jobs while he did, even though he wasn't an obvious candidate to get a job (not top 10% etc), then that must mean that they failed to do what he did to get a job (key terms: "hustle," "network").

This is all tied up with cultural imperatives to treat social outcomes as reflections of merit, as opposed to cronyism and other forms of unearned privilege, and most of all sheer random luck.


...yeah! That what, um, Paul Campos said above:

OP's post is tied up in a defense mechanism, a basic psychomotional refusal to statistically validate the basic argument, which is that an overwhelming statistical moralization of imperatives like random, privileged cronyism are social outcomes that reflect the rarest forms of luck.

It's humilimeaning and demilitating at its worst base level.

NYstate
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby NYstate » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:52 pm

Bikeflip wrote:
Stinson wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Stinson wrote:Is there any way to tell whether OP is an alt of a Cooley admissions officer?


??

OP went to a top 30 school. He is trying to say it is possible to find work even below median. I'm probably the only one who cares about his story, but I think the next batch of no- offered and laid off people might want to know something about getting jobs in small firms. Most people on TLS aren't going to end up in biglaw no matter how much they plan on it.

Maybe his tone is objectionable but tone seems to not matter much on TLS.


Then OP is welcome to make a thread offering up his wisdom to people in that position, not trying to lead 0L's into making bad decisions with anecdotes.


Fair enough.




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