I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

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Bronte
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Bronte » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I wasn't saying that because Cooley is included that 50% becomes 100%, but you must understand if you see a number that is an average, and know for a fact that that average includes a number that is far below that average, that if you don't include that lower number, the average increases, right?

And if my language was ambiguous, I apologize. What I meant is that I have a very good shot at getting a legal job, and I think that any legal job is a very cool outcome. "Shit-law" pays more than what I couldve gotten, and it's an enjoyable thing to do.


My grasp of averages is pretty good. Cooley's 25% drags the average down and Chicago's 95% pulls the average up and schools in the middle of the pack are, well, average. And that average, about 55%, is not a pretty number.

I think a legal job is a cool outcome too. And I have nothing against so-called shitlaw and don't make a habit of using that term. But your core claim, that TLS is too pessimistic because it doesn't think 55% is good odds for a $150,000 degree, is not supported by the fact that you have a positive outlook and are optimistic about your chances.

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minnbills
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby minnbills » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:11 pm

Bronte wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I wasn't saying that because Cooley is included that 50% becomes 100%, but you must understand if you see a number that is an average, and know for a fact that that average includes a number that is far below that average, that if you don't include that lower number, the average increases, right?

And if my language was ambiguous, I apologize. What I meant is that I have a very good shot at getting a legal job, and I think that any legal job is a very cool outcome. "Shit-law" pays more than what I couldve gotten, and it's an enjoyable thing to do.


My grasp of averages is pretty good. Cooley's 25% drags the average down and Chicago's 95% pulls the average up and schools in the middle of the pack are, well, average. And that average, about 55%, is not a pretty number.

I think a legal job is a cool outcome too. And I have nothing against so-called shitlaw and don't make a habit of using that term. But your core claim, that TLS is too pessimistic because it doesn't think 55% is good odds for a $150,000 degree, is not supported by the fact that you have a positive outlook and are optimistic about your chances.


There are a lot more cooleys than there are chicagos though

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laotze
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby laotze » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:12 pm

If the "crisis" were that 50% of law students failed to obtain biglaw jobs and instead were forced to settle for other forms of legal practice, no one would be crying fire here.
The point is that 50% of law students fail to obtain any legal jobs, and bro if that is not a catastrophic figure for an vocational education industry than I don't know what is.

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Bronte
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Bronte » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:15 pm

minnbills wrote:
Bronte wrote:My grasp of averages is pretty good. Cooley's 25% drags the average down and Chicago's 95% pulls the average up and schools in the middle of the pack are, well, average. And that average, about 55%, is not a pretty number.

I think a legal job is a cool outcome too. And I have nothing against so-called shitlaw and don't make a habit of using that term. But your core claim, that TLS is too pessimistic because it doesn't think 55% is good odds for a $150,000 degree, is not supported by the fact that you have a positive outlook and are optimistic about your chances.


There are a lot more cooleys than there are chicagos though


I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me, but so what? The average is 55%. T30s get about 65%. Those numbers suck. That's the point.

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romothesavior
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:2. (a) By doesn't sound like it, I presume you mean that since I explained that I haven't gone through OCI and such, I do not have a job lined up for 2L summer, although I was able to find work this summer. I know zero people not working. Those not being paid chose to clerk or work as public defenders. For many, jobs were found close to midnight --but everything worked out. 1L summer has been tight.
Like others have said, this is fairly meaningless. Everyone finds work as a 1L.

What I'm trying to explain is is that after getting my very average grades back, TLS made me feel like shit. And after doing more research and talking to non-TLSers (lawyers, upper-level students), I'm not convinced I should feel like shit.
Depends on lots of factors like debt, what you want to do, etc. There was a thread not even an hour ago where I was telling someone at a T20 with sub-median grades that he isn't screwed, he should stay persistent, it'll likely work out, etc. TLS is closer to realistic than pessimistic; if you want to see pessimism, go check out JDU. The notion that TLS is over the top with pessimism is really not my experience at all, and people like you typically arrive at that conclusion by creating one hell of a strawman.
3 and 4. Again, maybe I'm wrong.
Yep.
This site is famous for its I-failed-at-OCI-even-though-I'm-#-5 threads, and I think it's important to make a big thread like this to say that to say that those are the same people who post on Yelp when their suit gets fucked at the dry cleaner --the guy who gets 10 shirts done a week for 3 years with no problems is pretty unlikely to post a review of his dry cleaner.
Nope. Even a cursory sample of the most pessimistic and "anti" law school people from my class on TLS tells me that this is total BS.
And if my language was ambiguous, I apologize. What I meant is that I have a very good shot at getting a legal job, and I think that any legal job is a very cool outcome. "Shit-law" pays more than what I couldve gotten, and it's an enjoyable thing to do.
I used to be really against the term "shitlaw" and even now I try to limit my use of it. I'll agree that TLS unfairly looks down on small firm work and most forms of non-corporate litigation, and there are some great small and mid-sized firms out there (I work part time for a great little family law firm in STL). But there are lots of shitty law jobs, there's no way around it. Tons of legal jobs are a combination of low pay, few opportunities, high turnover, terrible hours, and little resume benefit. Not every legal job is "a very cool outcome," and something tells me that by the time you're a 3L or a recent graduate your outlook will change.

I also highly doubt "shitlaw" pays more than you could have gotten without law school. Many, many legal jobs start out between 30-50k, which is simply awful considering how much time and money it takes to become a member of this "noble profession." I saw a sign at Family Video yesterday advertising for new manager jobs starting at 35k with benefits. Sure, not a ton of upward mobility there and I don't doubt that most lawyers will make more than video store managers over the long term, but it also doesn't cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to become a retail manager either.
I'm suggesting that those who are not as happy as I am are that way because they're frustrated entitled brats.
No.
I'm optimistic that things will work out from here on out.
I hope they do for you and I'm guessing if you're median at a T20 they will in the long run... but Jesus Christ, lay off the profession's Kool Aid.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:25 pm

Alright well we're all working with the same figures and generally understand the outlook so that's about as far as I can get with this thread with you guys... I don't think it's worth writing to the NY Times every week, starting a blog, or writing a book about this shit being a "scam," and I'm not sure I can help the fact that this site makes me feel like I'm fucked all the time so perhaps it's not yall who make me feel that way :lol: , but I'll admit that upon reconsideration, 50% isn't good :lol:

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Bronte
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Bronte » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Alright well we're all working with the same figures and generally understand the outlook so that's about as far as I can get with this thread with you guys... I don't think it's worth writing to the NY Times every week, starting a blog, or writing a book about this shit being a "scam," and I'm not sure I can help the fact that this site makes me feel like I'm fucked all the time so perhaps it's not yall who make me feel that way :lol: , but I'll admit that upon reconsideration, 50% isn't good :lol:


Good enough for me.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:42 pm

oops

timbs4339
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Alright well we're all working with the same figures and generally understand the outlook so that's about as far as I can get with this thread with you guys... I don't think it's worth writing to the NY Times every week, starting a blog, or writing a book about this shit being a "scam," and I'm not sure I can help the fact that this site makes me feel like I'm fucked all the time so perhaps it's not yall who make me feel that way :lol: , but I'll admit that upon reconsideration, 50% isn't good :lol:


Again, who are these posters writing books about law school? Am I missing out on boatloads of $$$?

Actually, that's a good idea. TLS crowdsources a law school advice guide. Proceeds go to LST.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby laxbrah420 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:45 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Alright well we're all working with the same figures and generally understand the outlook so that's about as far as I can get with this thread with you guys... I don't think it's worth writing to the NY Times every week, starting a blog, or writing a book about this shit being a "scam," and I'm not sure I can help the fact that this site makes me feel like I'm fucked all the time so perhaps it's not yall who make me feel that way :lol: , but I'll admit that upon reconsideration, 50% isn't good :lol:


Again, who are these posters writing books about law school? Am I missing out on boatloads of $$$?

Actually, that's a good idea. TLS crowdsources a law school advice guide. Proceeds go to LST.

Paul Columbus.
LST certainly needs proceeds. They've got like 15 different seemingly different employment scores for every school that are slightly different. The site's awfully hard to decipher. I'd rather MYLSN gets funding though --seems like better leadership.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:49 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Alright well we're all working with the same figures and generally understand the outlook so that's about as far as I can get with this thread with you guys... I don't think it's worth writing to the NY Times every week, starting a blog, or writing a book about this shit being a "scam," and I'm not sure I can help the fact that this site makes me feel like I'm fucked all the time so perhaps it's not yall who make me feel that way :lol: , but I'll admit that upon reconsideration, 50% isn't good :lol:


Again, who are these posters writing books about law school? Am I missing out on boatloads of $$$?

Actually, that's a good idea. TLS crowdsources a law school advice guide. Proceeds go to LST.

Paul Columbus.
LST certainly needs proceeds. They've got like 15 different seemingly different employment scores for every school that are slightly different. The site's awfully hard to decipher. I'd rather MYLSN gets funding though --seems like better leadership.


This site, LSN, and LST should be mandatory viewing for all law school applicants.

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stillwater
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby stillwater » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:51 pm

I think TLS gave me a critically important cynical view to law school but also made me into an insatiable troll

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DoubleChecks
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:51 pm

johnpierce14 wrote:There are some helpful threads - like the procedural/mechanical aspects of looking for a job - but don't believe anything you believe on these forums. It's just fear mongering at its most disgusting level. This is the fox news of internet forums.

I was caught up in here for a while, then things worked out excellent for me (top 30 school, bottom half) and I feel FOOLISH for being stressed out by what I would read here on a nightly basis.

Unbelievable. These threads in the legal employment section epitomize why law school sucks, you're a masochist if you read too much into what some of these people claim.


You're the type of person to ignore 5000 user ratings saying car x is bad in favor of your neighbor who bought it and thought it was good, huh?

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romothesavior
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:03 am

laxbrah420 wrote:LST certainly needs proceeds. They've got like 15 different seemingly different employment scores for every school that are slightly different. The site's awfully hard to decipher.

What? No its not.

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stillwater
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby stillwater » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:04 am

romothesavior wrote:
laxbrah420 wrote:LST certainly needs proceeds. They've got like 15 different seemingly different employment scores for every school that are slightly different. The site's awfully hard to decipher.

What? No its not.


+1. wut?

JusticeJackson
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby JusticeJackson » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:41 am

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Last edited by JusticeJackson on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bronte
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Bronte » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:39 am

JusticeJackson wrote:If you're fine with any law job, regardless of pay and ultimate debt level, then law school might not be a bad choice. It sounds like that's the type of person the OP is. To be honest, every single person I know that went to a second tier or third tier school has a legal job of some kind. But, if you're the type of person that would like to make more than 50k after 7 years of expensive schooling, then you need to be cognizant of school ranking and class ranking, because the highly grade-and school-selective jobs also pay the best. Being cognizant of those important factors that play a huge role in whether you can repay student loans does not make you a cunt.


So, to be clear, it is your belief that the 55% statistic is false? That, in fact, closer to 100% of law school graduates get legal jobs?

JusticeJackson
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby JusticeJackson » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:22 am

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Last edited by JusticeJackson on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.

RodneyRuxin
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby RodneyRuxin » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:35 am

WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL GOING ON

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romothesavior
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:35 am

You must have gone to one helluva tier 2/3 school if everyone has a job. But of course, as you said, you didn't do a scientific pole.

lukertin
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby lukertin » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:39 am

aye, he didn't do a scientific pole

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Danger Zone
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Danger Zone » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:40 am

Hardy har, we all got it. Obvious troll is obvious.

JusticeJackson
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby JusticeJackson » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:17 pm

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Last edited by JusticeJackson on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JusticeJackson
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby JusticeJackson » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:21 pm

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Last edited by JusticeJackson on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bronte
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Bronte » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:24 pm

JusticeJackson wrote:
romothesavior wrote:You must have gone to one helluva tier 2/3 school if everyone has a job. But of course, as you said, you didn't do a scientific pole.


I didn't go there. I'm at a local firm and there's also a tier 2 in my city. I have a lot of friends that went to tier 2/3 schools, and a ton of co-workers from the local tier 2. They all have jobs. If someone on here really really wants a job and doesn't mind making 35k-45k, I am 100% certain I can find you one. You'd have to be willing to move anywhere. I'm blown away people disagree with this. Perhaps my view of the world is slanted because I have a job and maybe all of my friends had stellar grades (I doubt it).


How can you be blown away that people disagree with a point that is directly contradicted by reams of statistical evidence?




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