I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

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Birdnals
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Birdnals » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:50 pm

Skye wrote:
johnpierce14 wrote:There are some helpful threads - like the procedural/mechanical aspects of looking for a job - but don't believe anything you believe on these forums. It's just fear mongering at its most disgusting level. This is the fox news of internet forums. .

What I don’t see on TLS are many discouraging grumbles from T14 students. What I do see a lot of are people with +5,000 posts proclaiming how bad things are. There is a solid disconnect between those two worlds.

User was outed for anon abuse.


I truly hope bad things happen to you.

rad lulz
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby rad lulz » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:58 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

NYstate
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby NYstate » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:27 pm

Birdnals wrote:
Skye wrote:
johnpierce14 wrote:There are some helpful threads - like the procedural/mechanical aspects of looking for a job - but don't believe anything you believe on these forums. It's just fear mongering at its most disgusting level. This is the fox news of internet forums. .

What I don’t see on TLS are many discouraging grumbles from T14 students. What I do see a lot of are people with +5,000 posts proclaiming how bad things are. There is a solid disconnect between those two worlds.

User was outed for anon abuse.


I truly hope bad things happen to you.


There have been posts by jobless T14 grads and by unhappy T14 grads. People tend to accuse the poster of being a poor interviewer, social misfit or otherwise at fault for their predicament. Or they just post questions about how to avoid that fate.

You can see why jobless T14 grads don't turn to TLS.

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20160810
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby 20160810 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:59 pm

Whenever I see "top-30 law school" I immediately wonder if it's someone who went to Davis with me (are we still top-30? I guess it doesn't matter.) But in this case I doubt it, because I think people at the bottom of my class can't even find shitlaw jobs.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:42 pm

--ImageRemoved--

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:48 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Got to disagree here, and this logic is repeated over and over again on TLS. It's basic: 50% of people got X, so chances of obtaining X equals 50%. This logic is completely false. It assumes 100% of people are striving for X.

1/4 people at your law school (and mine) came here to study environmental puppy law. Others came here to kill time and would rather get married/join Peace Corps/become a farmer than work full-time in a JD required role. A few came here and got depressed because they never got over their old boyfriend, never forgave their dad, or never found their true calling. For lack of a better way of putting it, I am not really competing with these people. Then you have all the other people who have the maturity and drive to become a successful professional, but you can't assume they are all working towards "X." Point is, the "56% of Oregon grads obtain full-time JD required work, so Oregon students have a coins flip chance of becoming a real lawyer" thing is mindless and silly. Maybe at U of Chicago 90% of students want X, but the difference between U of Chicago and whatever the fuck "T30" signifies is huge. There is a difference in intelligence between top schools and average schools, especially at the bottom of the class, but the real difference is culture, work ethic, goals, etc. That's why OP (who was clearly being a dick and attempting to start a fight) is finding some support. TLS over-states the problems of the legal market. The truth is the legal market sucks, but TLS tries so hard to avoid blaming students that it presents ridiculous alternatives-- that legal hiring is completely different than non-legal hiring, that (outside of Biglaw and Fed clerks) grades trump actual skills, that everyone wants the same thing out of law school, etc.


You can't assume this. I know several people at my T10 who really had no interest in the legal profession, went to law school because that is what upper-middle-class kids who are good at readin' and ritin' but not good at math or science do, and are now effectively out of the profession because they can't hack having a job (or they really never wanted one to begin with). I'm one year out.
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:53 pm

Paul Campos wrote:The 50% stat getting legal jobs (give or take) at most law schools seems to be on the whole loosely related to class standing. From what I've seen, it's fairly tightly related to class standing at the very top of the class (someone close to the top of the class has far better than even odds of getting a legal job). But if you're not near the top of the class, grades rapidly become of quite limited significance, at least in comparison to the importance law students are told to ascribe to them.

Again, this applies to non-elite schools. Whether you're in the 70th or the 30th percentile matters a lot at an elite school, but seems to make very little difference outside those schools. (This what I've seen in studying the issue over the past couple of years, and I'd be curious to know how well it lines up with current students' and recent graduates' experiences).


In an effort to turn this thread to some purpose, yes, that's been my experience and the experience of my circle of acquaintances at both high and lower ranked schools. I look at it as the difference between "institutional" hiring organizations- what you called HSLE, and "informal" firms that hire based mostly on connections, alma mater, maybe working part-time during school. Of course a person who gets a job at a "respected litigation boutique making 1/2 NY market" can point to some causal chain of events that resulted in them getting the job. But that doesn't mean the folks who didn't get the job didn't do the same stuff. Maybe their uncle's friend wasn't as big a client as they thought, maybe their resume hit the employer's desk on the same day the divorce papers did, or maybe the firm that hired them to work for $10/hour for 2L summer lost a close motion to dismiss and now doesn't have the money to bring on a FT employee.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:34 pm

This thread was great. We haven't had a good "TLS sucks, you guys are all a bunch of pessimistic morans!" thread in a while. I yearn for the days when they were a regular thing.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby rad lulz » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:39 pm

romothesavior wrote:This thread was great. We haven't had a good "TLS sucks, you guys are all a bunch of pessimistic morans!" thread in a while. I yearn for the days when they were a regular thing.

TLS is a mindless echo chamber

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Danger Zone » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:46 pm

Is this basically an on-topic trolls assemble?

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby minnbills » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:49 pm

rad lulz wrote:TLS is a mindless echo chamber


It kinda is

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:50 pm

romothesavior wrote:This thread was great. We haven't had a good "TLS sucks, you guys are all a bunch of pessimistic morans!" thread in a while. I yearn for the days when they were a regular thing.


Image

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby hiima3L » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:25 pm

180 troll thread.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby AllTheLawz » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:35 pm

NYstate wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:The 50% stat getting legal jobs (give or take) at most law schools seems to be on the whole loosely related to class standing. From what I've seen, it's fairly tightly related to class standing at the very top of the class (someone close to the top of the class has far better than even odds of getting a legal job). But if you're not near the top of the class, grades rapidly become of quite limited significance, at least in comparison to the importance law students are told to ascribe to them.

Again, this applies to non-elite schools. Whether you're in the 70th or the 30th percentile matters a lot at an elite school, but seems to make very little difference outside those schools. (This what I've seen in studying the issue over the past couple of years, and I'd be curious to know how well it lines up with current students' and recent graduates' experiences).


This is the information I was asking about. Maybe the advice should be that if you aren't at a T14 and you aren't top 5-10% you should either drop out or realize that your grades are not the key factor in getting a job? The below median cutoff as a job determinant maybe only applies to the top schools?

I'm not with OP as I think more people should drop out and I would have advised OP to drop out. But for those people who are searching, maybe the idea that some small percentage of people will get jobs is helpful?


What he is sating is that that since major law firms hire deep into T14 classes what percentile you are matters deeper into the range. At non-elite schools, very quickly it doesn't matter what percentile you are since you are out of the running for jobs that care about rank within the first 10% or so it doesn't matter as much deeper into the class.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby nevdash » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:30 pm

SBL wrote:Whenever I see "top-30 law school" I immediately wonder if it's someone who went to Davis with me (are we still top-30? I guess it doesn't matter.) But in this case I doubt it, because I think people at the bottom of my class can't even find shitlaw jobs.

Not to go off on a tangent, but I've always wondered about that too. Since the education across schools is all equal, rank only matters as an indication of an incoming class's quality. So shouldn't your school rank refer to the year that you were admitted? And to the extent that employers foolishly rely on it, shouldn't they only look at the rank for that year?

(shameless trolling from a BU grad admitted while it was a T20)

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:38 pm

Except that I don't think employers' opinions of various schools change in tandem with the vagaries of USNWR - their opinion of BU hasn't changed just because USNWR messed with the numbers.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby lolwat » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:50 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Except that I don't think employers' opinions of various schools change in tandem with the vagaries of USNWR - their opinion of BU hasn't changed just because USNWR messed with the numbers.


IMO, depends on the employer's familiarity with the school. I've never seen BU while it was a T20 and I'm not overly familiar with the school. So if I was ever asked to do some really arbitrary cut-offs to whittle down hundreds of resumes into a more manageable size (say, when reviewing clerkship applications...), a school that's currently in the T20 (say, Minnesota, which I also am not very familiar with) might make the cut while BU (at 29th now, right?) might not. Assuming all else equal.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby nevdash » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:52 pm

But that just seems weird to separate the employer's opinion from the quality of students that enroll in a school. Law schools don't really change law students in any meaningful way (or at least any given school isn't better at making a student "think like a lawyer" than the others), so the quality of incoming students is all that really matters when you're trying to factor an applicant's school into your hiring decision. Top 10% at HLS is better than top 10% at Cooley because the 90% of students you have to beat at HLS are invariably better than the 90% at Cooley. But imagine that the entering classes of Cooley and HLS were switched one year; an employer's opinion about either wouldn't matter. So if a school's ranking changes over time, the employer's opinion of the school should change depending on when the student enrolled since students still choose schools primarily based on US News rank.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:54 pm

I hate it when stupid people make good threads and the domination makes people think that their point isn't good. I almost suspect this is a troll not attempting to piss people off, but attempting to further the TLS pessimist bullshit.

Right now, I'm slightly above median, gonna graduate with about 110k in debt from a non-T14. The first thing that TLS got extremely wrong was that law school was a bad time. This almost made me not go to law school, though I suspected that perhaps the odd characters here weren't the best judges of what a good time constitutes. I've met good and trustworthy friends who I get to have intelligent conversations with, get to struggle with, and get to celebrate with. I've had the pleasure of interacting with genius professors and incredible practitioners. I get to contemplate fascinating subject material on a daily basis (and some not-so interesting stuff too, but that's life), and I get to close up shop each night feeling accomplished and without worry/carry-over to the next day (exception: 5 weeks before/during finals x2 times a year). I'm not burdened with deadlines or expectations of third parties. Life as a law student is good (or at least, it was during 1L. 2L might be more demanding for all I know --certainly cannot trust TLS wisdom).

My employment prospects from outside the top 25% outside the T14 in biglaw aren't great, but they ARE great for everything else. Yes, it's important to factor in debt payments as negative income, but if $75k constitutes the normal happiness threshold, my changes of making $85k/year (threshold + reasonable yearly debt payments) are FAR greater than what they would have been coming out of college with a rather undesirable degree/grade point average, and certainly far greater than the shot the general population has. The fact that TLS is so concerned with biglaw or bust because of the 1st year "dichotomy" is so misleading that one may conclude it is willfully deceptive (perhaps an effort to promote a blog/book, perhaps to discourage competition for admissions steps, perhaps to make oneself feel better about his or her own failures, perhaps pure malice...). Whatever the reason, it's elitist, myopic, and stress inducing, and makes this site an all around a bad place. If I don't get to that 80k number, I will struggle. But success takes risks, and I'm quite sure that the product of (chance of success)/(chance of failure) having gone to law school exceeds that number when choosing not to attend. (Of course, sigma (happiness levels*risk))

The good news is that just as people still use dry cleaners after reading Yelp reviews, this site's impact is limited by the fact that reasonable minds can see through the bullshit, and there are a handful of honest posters.

Anonymous disclaimer: I posted personal shit and abrasive shit --if you feel I've abused the anon feature because of the abrasive shit, please don't out me, just give me a chance to revise. I'm 90% sure I've used the feature reasonably though.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby JusticeHarlan » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My employment prospects from outside the top 25% outside the T14 in biglaw aren't great, but they ARE great for everything else.

What do you base this on?

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby lolwat » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:05 pm

But that just seems weird to separate the employer's opinion from the quality of students that enroll in a school. Law schools don't really change law students in any meaningful way (or at least any given school isn't better at making a student "think like a lawyer" than the others), so the quality of incoming students is all that really matters when you're trying to factor an applicant's school into your hiring decision. Top 10% at HLS is better than top 10% at Cooley because the 90% of students you have to beat at HLS are invariably better than the 90% at Cooley. But imagine that the entering classes of Cooley and HLS were switched one year; an employer's opinion about either wouldn't matter. So if a school's ranking changes over time, the employer's opinion of the school should change depending on when the student enrolled since students still choose schools primarily based on US News rank.


There's rarely ever a reason for employers to make that kind of year-specific analysis rather than looking at generalizations. Also, an employer might be an entity, but the people calling the shots there are human. They're going to make the same kind of judgment call based on what they know. I can't even tell you how many times my relatively-high ranked school has gotten confused with other schools or an employer has otherwise never even heard of it. If they look up US News, they're going to see whatever rank my school is, and that's going to form the basis of their opinion of my school, regardless of where it ranked any other year.

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Danger Zone
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Danger Zone » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:08 pm

Oh great, the "law school was the right choice for me; therefore, you're all overreacting" schtick again.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby nevdash » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:08 pm

lolwat wrote:
But that just seems weird to separate the employer's opinion from the quality of students that enroll in a school. Law schools don't really change law students in any meaningful way (or at least any given school isn't better at making a student "think like a lawyer" than the others), so the quality of incoming students is all that really matters when you're trying to factor an applicant's school into your hiring decision. Top 10% at HLS is better than top 10% at Cooley because the 90% of students you have to beat at HLS are invariably better than the 90% at Cooley. But imagine that the entering classes of Cooley and HLS were switched one year; an employer's opinion about either wouldn't matter. So if a school's ranking changes over time, the employer's opinion of the school should change depending on when the student enrolled since students still choose schools primarily based on US News rank.


There's rarely ever a reason for employers to make that kind of year-specific analysis rather than looking at generalizations. Also, an employer might be an entity, but the people calling the shots there are human. They're going to make the same kind of judgment call based on what they know. I can't even tell you how many times my relatively-high ranked school has gotten confused with other schools or an employer has otherwise never even heard of it.

How was WUSTL? :P

Yeah, I see your point. Guess I'm just opining about what would happen in an ideal world. But then again, in an ideal world, employers would be able to devote enough time to evaluate a candidate without resorting to any generalizations at all, so.

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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:12 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:My employment prospects from outside the top 25% outside the T14 in biglaw aren't great, but they ARE great for everything else.

What do you base this on?

http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

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romothesavior
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Re: I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Stuff

1. I agree with you that law school has been enjoyable in many respects. I think the experience itself is rather unnecessary and idiotic, and aspects of it are not fun (I can tell you right now that bar studying is a miserable time), but overall I enjoyed my three years.

2. Do you have a job? It doesn't sound like it. What makes you think that you have "great" non-biglaw job prospects? Do you have rich family and great connections? Because if that's it, then your experience and background isn't normal. Or are you just proclaiming victory without anything to show for it. It sounds like you're celebrating your successes before they've even arrived.

3. You're talking about it like we're just a bunch of elitist, frustrated losers who are lashing out at the world based on our sense of disappointment and bitterness. That's just ridiculous. I'm fortunate enough to have a good job for good pay at a respectable firm that I like, and even I still tremble at the debt that I have and the uncertainty that lies ahead. And I'm not blind to the many good friends of mine who are 3Ls studying for the bar without jobs, not knowing how they're going to service their 100k+, or even 200k+, of debt. This isn't really about you or me or individuals we know; it's about trends, about data, about the collective profession. That's why you have state bar associations looking at the long-impacts of the system, and senators talking about the problem behind closed doors, and professors and administrators standing up and saying basically the same things we TLS posters have been saying for years. Are they all just elitist and myopic and willfully deceptive and all the other shit you just leveled at the TLS community?

4. Most of the regular posters, and the posters whom I suspect most of your post is directed towards, are not "biglaw or bust" in that they treat anything and everything outside of biglaw as shitlaw. Much of what you just said is a strawman at best, and just plain false at worst. And yet it still manages to be one of the most intelligent things you've ever said on TLS.




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