I wouldn't listen to 95 percent of the stuff here Forum

[JusticeHarlan]

My employment prospects from outside the top 25% outside the T14 in biglaw aren't great, but they ARE great for everything else.

What do you base this on?

http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

What a helpful and informative response

How about, since you're so keen on using the anonymous posting feature "reasonably," you could mention which school you're at so we can actually have a conversation about the substance of your claim of "great" employment prospects? Or anything else to back it up?

Or did you just feel like ranting?

[Bronte]

I hate it when stupid people make good threads and the domination makes people think that their point isn't good. I almost suspect this is a troll not attempting to piss people off, but attempting to further the TLS pessimist bullshit.

* * *

I agree that law school was a pretty good time (although at times it was hell), but who cares? That does not come close to justifying the costs of law school and is essentially irrelevant. Likewise, I agree that posters on TLS (and nearly all internet forums) are overly pessimistic in general to the point of being wrong about a lot of stuff, but again so what? TLS is not wrong about the central claim that most law schools are not a good economic investment.

As to your claim about employment outcomes, you are as wrong as the OP. How do you explain that, while you claim non-big law employment is "great," 50% of graduates do not get legal jobs? It's a simple, direct question, backed by statistics. Can you answer it?

Also, if you are at your state flagship, you're making a straw man argument here, because the general TLS wisdom that you so despise is that state flagships can be a good idea for practice in that region, at least with a decent scholarship.

Finally, to those earlier in the thread who were asking why people post earnest responses to obvious trolls like OP, it's because real posters, as demonstrated by anon here, actually believe this crap.

[DocReviewPro]

Law school is still a good investment. The reason T14-ers discourage 0Ls from going to law school, and even encourage those attending to drop out, is because they don't want to be associated with non-elite lawyers. In other words, they think tier 2 lawyers are bringing down the prestige of the profession and would rather have them not exist at all. They would rather not have to explain the distinction to lay people. Lawyer should equal prestigious. And yet, this is not so as droves of non-elite lawyers who settle for less than biglaw wages are creating the perception that this is not necessarily the case. Afterall, does an individual surgeon ever need to qualify him/herself and explain that they are the exception? No. Do lawyers these days? Absolutely. This is frustrating for T14ers and is the main driving force behind all the negativity.

Otherwise, there are jobs, good ones, available for those who have minimum sociability qualifications.

[Danger Zone]

Law school is still a good investment. The reason T14-ers discourage 0Ls from going to law school, and even encourage those attending to drop out, is because they don't want to be associated with non-elite lawyers. In other words, they think tier 2 lawyers are bringing down the prestige of the profession and would rather have them not exist at all. That is the main driving force behind all the negativity. Otherwise, there are jobs, good ones available for those who have minimum sociability qualifications.

These are getting professional now. Well done, sir.

[DocReviewPro]

Law school is still a good investment. The reason T14-ers discourage 0Ls from going to law school, and even encourage those attending to drop out, is because they don't want to be associated with non-elite lawyers. In other words, they think tier 2 lawyers are bringing down the prestige of the profession and would rather have them not exist at all. That is the main driving force behind all the negativity. Otherwise, there are jobs, good ones available for those who have minimum sociability qualifications.

These are getting professional now. Well done, sir.

Updated:

Law school is still a good investment. The reason T14-ers discourage 0Ls from going to law school, and even encourage those attending to drop out, is because they don't want to be associated with non-elite lawyers. In other words, they think tier 2 lawyers are bringing down the prestige of the profession and would rather have them not exist at all. They would rather not have to explain the distinction to lay people. Lawyer should equal prestigious. And yet, this is not so as droves of non-elite lawyers who settle for less than biglaw wages are creating the perception that this is not necessarily the case. Afterall, does an individual surgeon ever need to qualify him/herself and explain that they are the exception? No. Do lawyers these days? Absolutely. This is frustrating for T14ers and is the main driving force behind all the negativity.

Otherwise, there are jobs, good ones, available for those who have minimum sociability qualifications.

[Another]

.

[Samara]

Law school is still a good investment. The reason T14-ers discourage 0Ls from going to law school, and even encourage those attending to drop out, is because they don't want to be associated with non-elite lawyers. In other words, they think tier 2 lawyers are bringing down the prestige of the profession and would rather have them not exist at all. They would rather not have to explain the distinction to lay people. Lawyer should equal prestigious. And yet, this is not so as droves of non-elite lawyers who settle for less than biglaw wages are creating the perception that this is not necessarily the case. Afterall, does an individual surgeon ever need to qualify him/herself and explain that they are the exception? No. Do lawyers these days? Absolutely. This is frustrating for T14ers and is the main driving force behind all the negativity.

Otherwise, there are jobs, good ones, available for those who have minimum sociability qualifications.

LOL

In a thread with a lot of dumb posts, this has to be one of the dumbest.

[Bronte]

Law school is still a good investment. The reason T14-ers discourage 0Ls from going to law school, and even encourage those attending to drop out, is because they don't want to be associated with non-elite lawyers. In other words, they think tier 2 lawyers are bringing down the prestige of the profession and would rather have them not exist at all. They would rather not have to explain the distinction to lay people. Lawyer should equal prestigious. And yet, this is not so as droves of non-elite lawyers who settle for less than biglaw wages are creating the perception that this is not necessarily the case. Afterall, does an individual surgeon ever need to qualify him/herself and explain that they are the exception? No. Do lawyers these days? Absolutely. This is frustrating for T14ers and is the main driving force behind all the negativity.

Otherwise, there are jobs, good ones, available for those who have minimum sociability qualifications.

LOL

In a thread with a lot of dumb posts, this has to be one of the dumbest.

It's 100% flame, i.e., written by someone who doesn't believe a word of it. Look at the username.

[DocReviewPro]

Law school is still a good investment. The reason T14-ers discourage 0Ls from going to law school, and even encourage those attending to drop out, is because they don't want to be associated with non-elite lawyers. In other words, they think tier 2 lawyers are bringing down the prestige of the profession and would rather have them not exist at all. They would rather not have to explain the distinction to lay people. Lawyer should equal prestigious. And yet, this is not so as droves of non-elite lawyers who settle for less than biglaw wages are creating the perception that this is not necessarily the case. Afterall, does an individual surgeon ever need to qualify him/herself and explain that they are the exception? No. Do lawyers these days? Absolutely. This is frustrating for T14ers and is the main driving force behind all the negativity.

Otherwise, there are jobs, good ones, available for those who have minimum sociability qualifications.

LOL

In a thread with a lot of dumb posts, this has to be one of the dumbest.

It's 100% flame, i.e., written by someone who doesn't believe a word of it. Look at the username.

The solution to this negativity is simple: designate a different label to the non-elite lawyer. "Non-elite lawyer," of course will not do. "Shit-law practitioner" is far too unrealistically demeaning for the non-elite lawyer to adopt. Perhaps "legal practitioner" is the term. "Lawyer" or "Attorney" shall be reserved for select group of "practitioners": 1) associates on a partnership-track (no staff attorney, career associate, will not do) at firms that pay no less than the city's market rate, 2) Judicial Clerks (Federal) + top flight school/top 10% law school credentials, and 3) certain government position, usually by way of entry through an "Honors" program, and almost always Federal. Now of course, there may be exceptions. As such, the request must be posted on a TLS/JD Underground thread to determine results; if more than 40% of posts consider the position to be legitimately equal to "biglaw," then the individual may represent him/herself as a "Lawyer" to the general public.

[nevdash]

The solution to this negativity is simple: designate a different label to the non-elite lawyer. "Non-elite lawyer," of course will not do. "Shit-law practitioner" is far too unrealistically demeaning for the non-elite lawyer to adopt. Perhaps "legal practitioner" is the term. "Lawyer" or "Attorney" shall be reserved for select group of "practitioners": 1) associates on a partnership-track (no staff attorney, career associate, will not do) at firms that pay no less than the city's market rate, 2) Judicial Clerks (Federal) + top flight school/top 10% law school credentials, and 3) certain government position, usually by way of entry through an "Honors" program, and almost always Federal. Now of course, there may be exceptions. As such, the request must be posted on a TLS/JD Underground thread to determine results; if more than 40% of posts consider the position to be legitimately equal to "biglaw," then the individual may represent him/herself as a "Lawyer" to the general public.

Partner Emeritus, is that you?

[timbs4339]

The fact that TLS is so concerned with biglaw or bust because of the 1st year "dichotomy" is so misleading that one may conclude it is willfully deceptive (perhaps an effort to promote a blog/book, perhaps to discourage competition for admissions steps, perhaps to make oneself feel better about his or her own failures, perhaps pure malice...).

God I wish I got paid for the time I spent here giving advice.

[DocReviewPro]

The fact that TLS is so concerned with biglaw or bust because of the 1st year "dichotomy" is so misleading that one may conclude it is willfully deceptive (perhaps an effort to promote a blog/book, perhaps to discourage competition for admissions steps, perhaps to make oneself feel better about his or her own failures, perhaps pure malice...).

God I wish I got paid for the time I spent here giving advice.

0.3 [Review TLS Thread in connection with drafting post regarding the quality of advice provided by fellow TLS-posters]
0.6 [Draft "post" regarding T14 perceptions of non-elite lawyers, its impact, and advance solutions] (x2)
0.2 [Review responses regarding drafted posts] (x2)

[romothesavior]

The solution to this negativity is simple: designate a different label to the non-elite lawyer. "Non-elite lawyer," of course will not do. "Shit-law practitioner" is far too unrealistically demeaning for the non-elite lawyer to adopt. Perhaps "legal practitioner" is the term. "Lawyer" or "Attorney" shall be reserved for select group of "practitioners": 1) associates on a partnership-track (no staff attorney, career associate, will not do) at firms that pay no less than the city's market rate, 2) Judicial Clerks (Federal) + top flight school/top 10% law school credentials, and 3) certain government position, usually by way of entry through an "Honors" program, and almost always Federal. Now of course, there may be exceptions. As such, the request must be posted on a TLS/JD Underground thread to determine results; if more than 40% of posts consider the position to be legitimately equal to "biglaw," then the individual may represent him/herself as a "Lawyer" to the general public.

Partner Emeritus, is that you?

Lol'd

[timbs4339]

The fact that TLS is so concerned with biglaw or bust because of the 1st year "dichotomy" is so misleading that one may conclude it is willfully deceptive (perhaps an effort to promote a blog/book, perhaps to discourage competition for admissions steps, perhaps to make oneself feel better about his or her own failures, perhaps pure malice...).

God I wish I got paid for the time I spent here giving advice.

0.3 [Review TLS Thread in connection with drafting post regarding the quality of advice provided by fellow TLS-posters]
0.6 [Draft "post" regarding T14 perceptions of non-elite lawyers, its impact, and advance solutions] (x2)
0.2 [Review responses regarding drafted posts] (x2)

I like you. How's life on the circuit?

[romothesavior]

Alright you can have a pass because this thread is a trainwreck and I actually laughed at that exchange, but tone the trolling down in the on-topics.

[DocReviewPro]

For what it's worth, I agree with what would be OP's coherent underlying statement: ultimately you make your own decisions based on your own unique circumstances. People have different values. If for one person paying sticker cost and becoming a lawyer is in of itself sufficient (w/job or not), then so be it.

[Dany]

My anecdotal evidence is more helpful than your "statistics" and "data." My anecdote is data with a soul.

I lol'd so hard motherfuckas wanna fine me.

I love this quote so much. Don't even care if troll.

[AllTheLawz]

Why the hell are people trying to come up with reasons why people say law school is a bad idea for the majority of people? Its simple math. Say you get "lucky" and are making $70k/yr by your 3rd year and graduated with a "moderate" amount of debt at $150k.

$70k is $50k after tax. Payments on $150k at 7% are about $1,700/month so you are probably using IBR to get payments down to $660/month, leaving you with a pretty solid $42k post tax and loans. Unfortunately, problem #2 is that the IBR payments don't even cover interest so your principal is still growing until you make more money (you won't begin to touch principal until you payments rise over $900/month, which IBR says you can afford at ~90k/yr). So what, forgiveness in 25 years right? Then problem #3, tax payments. If you are lucky enough to actually pay down the interest to say $130K you are suddenly probably looking at $45-55k tax bill just as you are entering prime retirement savings years.

All that to say, the reason people aren't so excited about the possibility of making $60k starting with a likely $90k salary 20 years later is that even that rosy outcome puts you in a difficult spot if you had to take out significant loans. Believe it or not, no one cares how many "non-prestigious" lawyers there are as long as they are getting paid.

[Bronte]

Why the hell are people trying to come up with reasons why people say law school is a bad idea for the majority of people?

*Proceeds to try to come up with reasons why people say law school is a bad idea for the majority of people.*

[Anonymous User]

And yet it still manages to be one of the most intelligent things you've ever said on TLS.

Why can mods see who anon is prior to an anon-abuse determination? Mods shouldn't simultaneously play poster and admin in that regard.

[soj]

And yet it still manages to be one of the most intelligent things you've ever said on TLS.

Why can mods see who anon is prior to an anon-abuse determination? Mods shouldn't simultaneously play poster and admin in that regard.

sometimes anon abuse isn't apparent until you see who it is (e.g. a poster replying to himself and pretending to be another person).

[Anonymous User]

Stuff

1. I agree with you that law school has been enjoyable in many respects. I think the experience itself is rather unnecessary and idiotic, and aspects of it are not fun (I can tell you right now that bar studying is a miserable time), but overall I enjoyed my three years.

2. Do you have a job? It doesn't sound like it. What makes you think that you have "great" non-biglaw job prospects? Do you have rich family and great connections? Because if that's it, then your experience and background isn't normal. Or are you just proclaiming victory without anything to show for it. It sounds like you're celebrating your successes before they've even arrived.

3. You're talking about it like we're just a bunch of elitist, frustrated losers who are lashing out at the world based on our sense of disappointment and bitterness. That's just ridiculous. I'm fortunate enough to have a good job for good pay at a respectable firm that I like, and even I still tremble at the debt that I have and the uncertainty that lies ahead. And I'm not blind to the many good friends of mine who are 3Ls studying for the bar without jobs, not knowing how they're going to service their 100k+, or even 200k+, of debt. This isn't really about you or me or individuals we know; it's about trends, about data, about the collective profession. That's why you have state bar associations looking at the long-impacts of the system, and senators talking about the problem behind closed doors, and professors and administrators standing up and saying basically the same things we TLS posters have been saying for years. Are they all just elitist and myopic and willfully deceptive and all the other shit you just leveled at the TLS community?

4. Most of the regular posters, and the posters whom I suspect most of your post is directed towards, are not "biglaw or bust" in that they treat anything and everything outside of biglaw as shitlaw. Much of what you just said is a strawman at best, and just plain false at worst. And yet it still manages to be one of the most intelligent things you've ever said on TLS.

1. OK
2. (a) By doesn't sound like it, I presume you mean that since I explained that I haven't gone through OCI and such, I do not have a job lined up for 2L summer, although I was able to find work this summer. I know zero people not working. Those not being paid chose to clerk or work as public defenders. For many, jobs were found close to midnight --but everything worked out. 1L summer has been tight.
(b) I haven't congratulated myself by any means. I've looked at statistics for law schools in general, and my school, and recognize that I have a good shot of finding something that I enjoy doing. Working in any legal role will be a privilege, and I understand that, but I am much closer to being able to work in this awesome profession because I chose to attend law school. At the end of the day, 50% of "law students" end up working in law --but that includes people at Cooley et. al. What I'm trying to explain is is that after getting my very average grades back, TLS made me feel like shit. And after doing more research and talking to non-TLSers (lawyers, upper-level students), I'm not convinced I should feel like shit.
(c) I'm hoping my family helps me, though certainly not counting on that. I'm also not convinced that knowing lawyers who are family friends makes me an exception to the average law student. In fact, I'm rather tired of drawing out this regular guy law student as this guy who went to a non-flagship State and has parents who make $50k. There's certainly a number of these people, and a lot of them are great people, but most people do grow up comfortably and are able to ask their parents for help networking.

3 and 4. Again, maybe I'm wrong. I post here a shitload, and I get the feeling that this place is way too pessimistic. My friends who I know don't post here but have visited also communicate that vibe. This site is famous for its I-failed-at-OCI-even-though-I'm-#-5 threads, and I think it's important to make a big thread like this to say that to say that those are the same people who post on Yelp when their suit gets fucked at the dry cleaner --the guy who gets 10 shirts done a week for 3 years with no problems is pretty unlikely to post a review of his dry cleaner.

And further, I think most people know when they're going for their MBA (outside the top ones) that they're going to get a degree that might help them land a dope job... and that's worth it. I don't know MBA numbers, but I'm guessing they'd take a 30% chance at a dopey-dope job and a 85% chance at a "comfortable living." That comfortable living again is far superior to the alternative coming out of college these days, and certainly far more comfortable than your typical american. Given my abysmal undergrad GPA, I'm extremely grateful that there's an enterprise like law school that has given me still a fighting chance to have a successful white collar life...I've enjoyed every second of the experience so far (except journal write on), and I'm optimistic that things will work out from here on out.

I'm suggesting that those who are not as happy as I am are that way because they're frustrated entitled brats. That doesn't mean I'm patting myself on the back.

[Danger Zone]

Congrats on everyone you know having a 1L job. That's seriously difficult to obtain.

[Bronte]

1. OK

* * *

You say the 50% figure is no big deal because it includes Cooley and similar schools. Again, this shows an egregious misunderstanding of statistics. Fifty-percent is the average figure. Cooley, at the bottom of the distribution, gets only 25% of its graduates legal jobs. A random T30, say Boston University, gets only 65% of its graduates legal jobs. Again, your original post stated that graduates at your school have "great" options outside of big law. I just don't see how that can be the case given the statistics.

Separately, like Danger Zone said, internships outside of big law SAs have almost nothing to do with employment. The fact that all your buddies have them means nothing.

Again, I agree that TLS is a cynical and pessimistic place. There are some core beliefs on this site--like the idea that you learn nothing in law school--that just aren't correct. But, unfortunately, TLS's collective wisdom with respect to the legal market is spot on and supported by hard evidence.

[Anonymous User]

1. OK

* * *

You say the 50% figure is no big deal because it includes Cooley and similar schools. Again, this shows an egregious misunderstanding of statistics. Fifty-percent is the average figure. Cooley, at the bottom of the distribution, gets only 25% of its graduates legal jobs. A random T30, say Boston University, gets only 65% of its graduates legal jobs. Again, your original post stated that graduates at your school have "great" options outside of big law. I just don't see how that can be the case given the statistics.

Separately, like Danger Zone said, internships outside of big law SAs have almost nothing to do with employment. The fact that all your buddies have them means nothing.

Again, I agree that TLS is a cynical and pessimistic place. There are some core beliefs on this site--like the idea that you learn nothing in law school--that just aren't correct. But, unfortunately, TLS's collective wisdom with respect to the legal market is spot on and supported by hard evidence.

I wasn't saying that because Cooley is included that 50% becomes 100%, but you must understand if you see a number that is an average, and know for a fact that that average includes a number that is far below that average, that if you don't include that lower number, the average increases, right?

And if my language was ambiguous, I apologize. What I meant is that I have a very good shot at getting a legal job, and I think that any legal job is a very cool outcome. "Shit-law" pays more than what I couldve gotten, and it's an enjoyable thing to do.