State clerkship v. Shit law firm

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
Bronte
Posts: 2128
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Bronte » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:31 pm

It's going to be tough to transfer to big law from that kind of a firm. There are essentially three ways into big law: (1) through a summer associateship, (2) lateraling from another full-service firm, and (3) from certain prestigious government positions. The reason you're not fitting into number two is because the work at the firm you're describing will have essentially no overlap with the type of work big firms do.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273582
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:33 pm

What does it matter if one guy in the firm has a great practice if you're going to be stuck plug-and-playing ID templates?

Again, the decision of whether the firm is shitty or not is up to you, but absent more information if you tell people you're going to do ID work, we're going to tell you that ID work kinda sucks.

User avatar
20160810
Posts: 19648
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby 20160810 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:33 pm

Bronte wrote:It's going to be tough to transfer to big law from that kind of a firm. There are essentially three ways into big law: (1) through a summer associateship, (2) lateraling from another full-service firm, and (3) from certain prestigious government positions. The reason you're not fitting into number two is because the work at the firm you're describing will have essentially no overlap with the type of work big firms do.

Er, (4) from a clerkship.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby rad lulz » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:35 pm

SBL wrote:
Bronte wrote:It's going to be tough to transfer to big law from that kind of a firm. There are essentially three ways into big law: (1) through a summer associateship, (2) lateraling from another full-service firm, and (3) from certain prestigious government positions. The reason you're not fitting into number two is because the work at the firm you're describing will have essentially no overlap with the type of work big firms do.

Er, (4) from a clerkship.

As to this specific situation, I wasn't under the impression that big NJ firms hire from state trial clerkships (I could be wrong).

Anonymous User
Posts: 273582
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:35 pm

[quote="Bronte"]It's going to be tough to transfer to big law from that kind of a firm. There are essentially three ways into big law: (1) through a summer associateship, (2) lateraling from another full-service firm, and (3) from certain prestigious government positions. The reason you're not fitting into number two is because the work at the firm you're describing will have essentially no overlap with the type of work
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
20160810
Posts: 19648
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby 20160810 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:38 pm

rad lulz wrote:
SBL wrote:
Bronte wrote:It's going to be tough to transfer to big law from that kind of a firm. There are essentially three ways into big law: (1) through a summer associateship, (2) lateraling from another full-service firm, and (3) from certain prestigious government positions. The reason you're not fitting into number two is because the work at the firm you're describing will have essentially no overlap with the type of work big firms do.

Er, (4) from a clerkship.

As to this specific situation, I wasn't under the impression that big NJ firms hire from state trial clerkships (I could be wrong).

I have absolutely no idea what the exit options are from a NJ trial court clerkship. Purely anecdotally, I can say that everyone I know in the "less preftigious" clerkships (state, magistrate, bk) has ended up working for a decent law firm. Another possibility would be starting here, getting a better clerkship, and then going for firms within 5 years. A lot of judges like hiring former clerks because they aren't starting from square one.

My $0.02 is that the knowledge gained in any clerkship makes it a value-adding experience, and there are always going to be ID firms out there, so it's not as if he's passing up a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take this.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273582
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Bronte wrote:It's going to be tough to transfer to big law from that kind of a firm. There are essentially three ways into big law: (1) through a summer associateship, (2) lateraling from another full-service firm, and (3) from certain prestigious government positions. The reason you're not fitting into number two is because the work at the firm you're describing will have essentially no overlap with the type of work big firms do.


Big firms don't do employment law? Also this is a full service firm with ex big law associates and partners.

Dooder if you just wanted people to tell you to take the firm job, why make the thread?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273582
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:48 pm

rad lulz wrote:
SBL wrote:
Bronte wrote:It's going to be tough to transfer to big law from that kind of a firm. There are essentially three ways into big law: (1) through a summer associateship, (2) lateraling from another full-service firm, and (3) from certain prestigious government positions. The reason you're not fitting into number two is because the work at the firm you're describing will have essentially no overlap with the type of work big firms do.

Er, (4) from a clerkship.

As to this specific situation, I wasn't under the impression that big NJ firms hire from state trial clerkships (I could be wrong).


Some do, some don't. Depends on the judge. I'd say as a whole most trial-level state court clerkships don't feed into Lowenstein/McCarter & English, but there are probably some exceptions (depends on your judge and where the judge has connections), and some of the midlaw firms will hire occasionally out of them. Also depends on whether the clerkships is civil part vs. criminal part vs. chancery (family, equity, probate, etc.). Additionally, a lot of NJ midsized firms have axed their summer programs in favor of hiring out of clerkships instead. Doesn't mean you're guaranteed in there if you do the clerkship, but at least you can take the year and try to make the necessary connections and hope they're hiring.

Of course, the downside to taking the clerkship is you could end up with a less lucrative offer and could still potentially end up in a practice area you don't want; and you don't have a fantastic chance of making more than $70-80k out of the clerkship (and it will be less if you're doing criminal part since prosecutors/PD/private criminal defense pays less). I personally think state trial clerkships are pretty high-value and if I were in your shoes, I'd pick that over the firm unless the firm is something you really want to do long-term.

User avatar
Lasers
Posts: 1576
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:46 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Lasers » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Bronte wrote:It's going to be tough to transfer to big law from that kind of a firm. There are essentially three ways into big law: (1) through a summer associateship, (2) lateraling from another full-service firm, and (3) from certain prestigious government positions. The reason you're not fitting into number two is because the work at the firm you're describing will have essentially no overlap with the type of work big firms do.


Big firms don't do employment law? Also this is a full service firm with ex big law associates and partners.

it depends on the firm you're going to join, what experience you will have, what kind of work you will be doing.

i know the top employment practices among biglaw will hire a few laterals from mid-sized firms every once in a while, but they need to have extensive experience within the practice area, and lots of marketable hands on experience.

User avatar
Bronte
Posts: 2128
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Bronte » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:56 pm

SBL wrote:Er, (4) from a clerkship.


Well typically from an Article III clerkship, usually someone who did a summer associateship and deferred, which doesn't really count as an alternate route. I'm not saying the state court clerkship isn't the best plan for OP, but I think the prospects of going to a big firm afterword are low regardless of which route OP takes.

Anonymous User wrote:Big firms don't do employment law? Also this is a full service firm with ex big law associates and partners.


If it's a full-service firm with ex-big law people that also does insurance defense then it is an anomaly. You should note that your thread title labels the firm "shit law" and you've been describing it as an ID mill and now you're incrementally changing your description to characterize it as a reputable mid-law firm.

User avatar
Lasers
Posts: 1576
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:46 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Lasers » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Bronte wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Any firm that does work where an insurance co pays the bill is shitty?


No. Insurance defense is a term of art that refers to specific type of practice. The firms are on contract to handle small claims that insurance companies don't want to settle. They're the attorneys on the other side of slip and falls. Major insurance litigation, e.g., litigation between an insurer and a reinsurer for $200 million, is handled by big law firms.


So then what about a midsized firm where there's an employment litigation practice billing like 250 an hour and where the firm usually bills anywhere between 70-150k per case. And obv they represent the insured and the insurance co pays the attys fees and any settlement. Where you know, you engage in whatever litigation needed...extensive motion practice, doc review, experts. No half-assing the case.


Can anyone else please comment on this? By the way, the whole firm does not do "ID" just the section ill be involved with has a lot of it. In fact, the firm as a whole kind of looks down on it. Top guy at the firm charges 700 an hour on his cases not related to ID at all.

well then how is that going to help you be marketable when trying to lateral? who cares what else the firm does.

User avatar
20160810
Posts: 19648
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby 20160810 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:08 pm

Bronte wrote:
SBL wrote:Er, (4) from a clerkship.


Well typically from an Article III clerkship, usually someone who did a summer associateship and deferred, which doesn't really count as an alternate route. I'm not saying the state court clerkship isn't the best plan for OP, but I think the prospects of going to a big firm afterword are low regardless of which route OP takes.

Anonymous User wrote:Big firms don't do employment law? Also this is a full service firm with ex big law associates and partners.


If it's a full-service firm with ex-big law people that also does insurance defense then it is an anomaly. You should note that your thread title labels the firm "shit law" and you've been describing it as an ID mill and now you're incrementally changing your description to characterize it as a reputable mid-law firm.

Yeah this is getting pretty inconsistent.

FWIW, I still say take the trial court clerkship. What you learn in a year of doing that is worth more than the $30,000 or so in salary you'd be missing out on at this point in your career.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273582
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:42 pm

Hhgf Hogg hgf
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
20160810
Posts: 19648
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby 20160810 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:47 pm

Also Google your judges name along with "clerkship" or "clerk" and you should get a sense of what firms, if any, past clerks landed at

User avatar
Bronte
Posts: 2128
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Bronte » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Are you guys crazy? State trial clerkship are worthless! This guy is saying he's got a secure associate position at a sizable firm with 80k and you guys are telling him to go do a clerkship??? A clerkship where in a year he will likely have no offers?? Holy crap.


You're overstating the case, but I think I agree with your conclusion. It's a tough decision if the firm is really an ID mill, but I would still probably go with the firm. If the firm is full-service and mid-sized, I think you clearly have to go with the firm. But OP only switched to that characterization in the last post or two.

Also, I still think OP should look into deferment wherein he could potentially have his cake and eat it too.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273582
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:00 pm

Bronte wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Are you guys crazy? State trial clerkship are worthless! This guy is saying he's got a secure associate position at a sizable firm with 80k and you guys are telling him to go do a clerkship??? A clerkship where in a year he will likely have no offers?? Holy crap.


You're overstating the case, but I think I agree with your conclusion. It's a tough decision if the firm is really an ID mill, but I would still probably go with the firm. If the firm is full-service and mid-sized, I think you clearly have to go with the firm. But OP only switched to that characterization in the last post or two.

Also, I still think OP should look into deferment wherein he could potentially have his cake and eat it
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Lasers
Posts: 1576
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:46 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Lasers » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:10 pm

Bronte wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Are you guys crazy? State trial clerkship are worthless! This guy is saying he's got a secure associate position at a sizable firm with 80k and you guys are telling him to go do a clerkship??? A clerkship where in a year he will likely have no offers?? Holy crap.


You're overstating the case, but I think I agree with your conclusion. It's a tough decision if the firm is really an ID mill, but I would still probably go with the firm. If the firm is full-service and mid-sized, I think you clearly have to go with the firm. But OP only switched to that characterization in the last post or two.

Also, I still think OP should look into deferment wherein he could potentially have his cake and eat it too.

would be ideal.

also, the poll clearly states small shitlaw. i don't know how that became a full-service mid-size firm. OP, paint an accurate picture if you want relevant advice.

in the end, 80k ITE is tough to pass up so i would take the job.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273582
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:25 pm

Flame. Firms like that don't even hire entry level. I don't even know where state clerks get jobs except some small firm or pd da office.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby keg411 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:30 pm

OP - I'm from NJ and know a ton about the legal market there and how state trial clerkships work. PM me the name of the firm (and possibly the judge if you feel comfortable) and I'll tell you what you should do.

supertoots
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:12 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby supertoots » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:02 pm

Take the firm job. If you really wanted to see how a court worked you could have done an internship, and probably interned higher on the food chain; i.e., A.J.S.C. than any clerkship you could get. The people who do well out of NJ trial-level clerkships are the ones who had good credentials or connections or both going into them.

User avatar
Bronte
Posts: 2128
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Bronte » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Flame. Firms like that don't even hire entry level. I don't even know where state clerks get jobs except some small firm or pd da office.


No reason to call flame here, especially anonymously. (In fact there's rarely a good reason to call flame. It happens way too much here.) Anyway, this would be a very weird flame.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273582
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: State clerkship v. Shit law firm

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:17 am

New Jersey clerkships are worthwhile from the Assignment Judge position upwards (Appellate Division and Supreme Court). Firms and the AG/Prosecutor's office still actively recruit out of the latter two clerkships and probably the Chancery Division to a degree. You will meet a lot of people in a trial level clerkship because there is daily/hourly contact with counsel. You have to use those contacts to make up for the perceived "lack of prestige" associated with a standard NJ trial level clerkship. If your judge is active in county bar associations they will probably take you along and make introductions. Ball is in your court if you want to level the playing field with the firms and gov't offices that actively recruit from the higher levels.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.