Done well at P, how does this look?

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Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:44 pm

So, I've finally decided to jump onto the OCI bid-list boat. I'm at around a 3.66 (top 10-ish%?) and looking at DC (extensive ties), NY (ties), and the Bay Area (minimal ties but tons of start up experience). At the moment I'm unsure if I want transactional or litigation, but, I think I'd be happy with either. 1-30 are here mostly as our CSO said that 31-60 we probably won't get.

Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP (New York, NY)
Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati, P.C. (Palo Alto, CA)
Gunderson Dettmer Stough Villeneuve Franklin & Hachigian, LLP (Redwood City, CA)
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP (Washington, DC)
Jones Day (Washington, DC)
Cooley LLP (Palo Alto, CA)
Debevoise & Plimpton LLP (New York, NY)
Arnold & Porter LLP (Washington, DC)
Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP (Armonk, NY)
Covington & Burling LLP (Washington, DC)
Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP (New York, NY)
Latham & Watkins LLP (Washington, DC)
WilmerHale LLP (Washington, DC)
Hogan Lovells (Washington, DC)
Morrison & Foerster LLP (San Francisco, CA)
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP (New York, NY)
Kirkland & Ellis LLP (Washington, DC)
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP (New York, NY)
Davis Polk & Wardwell (New York, NY)
Sullivan & Cromwell LLP (New York, NY)
Sidley Austin LLP (Chicago, IL)
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP (New York, NY)
Kaye Scholer LLP (New York, NY)
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher, & Flom LLP (New York, NY)
Schulte Roth & Zabel LLP (New York, NY)
Pepper Hamilton LLP (Philadelphia, PA)
Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP (New York, NY)
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen and Katz (New York, NY)
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP (New York, NY)
Williams & Connolly LLP (Washington, DC)

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koalatriste
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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby koalatriste » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:08 pm

Do you want to live in/have ties to Westchester? If not, why Boies Armonk??

I think this list is a tad aggressive, FWIW.

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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So, I've finally decided to jump onto the OCI bid-list boat. I'm at around a 3.66 (top 10-ish%?) and looking at DC (extensive ties), NY (ties), and the Bay Area (minimal ties but tons of start up experience). At the moment I'm unsure if I want transactional or litigation, but, I think I'd be happy with either. 1-30 are here mostly as our CSO said that 31-60 we probably won't get.

Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP (New York, NY)
Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati, P.C. (Palo Alto, CA)
Gunderson Dettmer Stough Villeneuve Franklin & Hachigian, LLP (Redwood City, CA)
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP (Washington, DC)
Jones Day (Washington, DC)
Cooley LLP (Palo Alto, CA)
Debevoise & Plimpton LLP (New York, NY)
Arnold & Porter LLP (Washington, DC)
Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP (Armonk, NY)
Covington & Burling LLP (Washington, DC)
Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP (New York, NY)
Latham & Watkins LLP (Washington, DC)
WilmerHale LLP (Washington, DC)
Hogan Lovells (Washington, DC)
Morrison & Foerster LLP (San Francisco, CA)
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP (New York, NY)
Kirkland & Ellis LLP (Washington, DC)
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP (New York, NY)
Davis Polk & Wardwell (New York, NY)
Sullivan & Cromwell LLP (New York, NY)
Sidley Austin LLP (Chicago, IL)
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP (New York, NY)
Kaye Scholer LLP (New York, NY)
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher, & Flom LLP (New York, NY)
Schulte Roth & Zabel LLP (New York, NY)
Pepper Hamilton LLP (Philadelphia, PA)
Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP (New York, NY)
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen and Katz (New York, NY)
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP (New York, NY)
Williams & Connolly LLP (Washington, DC)


Not familiar with the DC market but for NY firms you should be fine strictly in terms of grade selectivity. Your grades won't get in your way for the majority of the NY firms. Wacthell and Cravath being the exceptions.

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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:29 pm

As long as P still stands for Penn, there is no such thing as a "too aggresive" bid list for top 10%. I guess if you picked boutiques / small satelite offices in a half dozen major cities you might be shooting yourself in the foot... but that's definitely not an issue.

If I were you, I'd do my best to soul search down to 2 markets tops. Trying to do callbacks in Cali, NYC, and DC from Penn is going to be brutal, and give you a lot less exposure/fewer options within each city. It's fine to not be totally certain at this point, but you'll be working against yourself as it stands.

I do some interviewing at my firm, and you'd be surprised how easy it can be to trip people up with simple questions like "so where else are you interviewing?" - if you don't name the firms I consider peer firms in my city, I'll ask why. If it's because you spread your bidding across the country... that's a red flag in my eyes. Not because I expect you to be sure of everything at this stage (I don't) but because I know we have better odds of attracting candidates who already know they want my geographic region.

Having said that, depending on how your process works it may make sense to have a broad bidlist (just because you have to use the bids somewhere) then narrow it down for accepting/declining interviews. Just keep the above in mind.

As to the list, if you want W&C, I wouldn't bid it so low - they probably don't have many slots at your school and will be popular.

And why on earth is freshfields your #1 bid? Why a random Philly firm, especially one that's Pepper Hamilton?

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Emma.
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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Emma. » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:50 pm

Sidley Chicago is a random addition. I don't think bidding 4 markets is well-advised.

I had a terrible opinion of both WSGR and MoFo when I interviewed. If you are interested in startups you should consider ditching MoFo and adding Cooley and Fenwick.

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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:02 pm

I agree with anon that it would be better to narrow down to two markets. But I had similar credentials and bid three markets and got CBs in all three, so you can probably get away with it. You should almost certainly drop Sidley Chicago. Based on my experience they are going to kick you to the curb when they hear you're not all in for Chicago.

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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:56 am

OP here. Thanks everyone! I changed things up a bit so it's only 3 cities; DC, NYC, and SV/SF and added a bit more DC/NY.

To Anon at 7:50; Yeah, we've got 60 bids and there just aren't that many SV/SF firms with big offices coming. So, I'm aiming for DC, bidding the SF/SV firms that look good up top, and filling in the rest (mostly) with NY firms. Depending on how first rounds at Penn go/the bidding, I might end up declining a number of these interviews and/or focusing heavily on two markets (as Penn is 100% lottery). As for why Freshfields? It seems like a good full service international firm with plenty of options abroad. They're also looking to expand so that means (hopefully) responsibility for juniors. Plus, they pay market with a bit of a better culture/QoL than your standard NYC V10 with almost the same prestige (preftiege).

To Koalatriste: For Boies, they're doing the whole "pick an interview slot, we're interviewing for all locations" thing so I decided to go for their biggest office.

To Emma:Thanks! I've got Cooley at 6. Fenwick isn't coming though but I think I'll mass mail them once I find out about journal.

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Nelson
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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Nelson » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:52 am

Is 3.66 top 10% at Penn? I think that's being generous. OP you might want to consider throwing in a few more bigger class size firms or at least making sure they're high on your list so you definitely get interviews.

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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:As for why Freshfields? It seems like a good full service international firm with plenty of options abroad. They're also looking to expand so that means (hopefully) responsibility for juniors. Plus, they pay market with a bit of a better culture/QoL than your standard NYC V10 with almost the same prestige (preftiege).



8:29 pm here: Be careful with that line of reasoning. I understand where all of those impressions came from, but a lot of that is marketing.

First, Freshfields is a successful business with a great starting salary, but they are miles away in terms of pregtiege from "the standard NYC V10." If you want data, just compare Chambers & Partners rankings. Rankings aren't the end all and be all, but there's a very real difference in perception there.

Second, be extremely skeptical of any NYC firm (or really any big law firm) that's selling you on a better QoL. Differences exist and I have no doubt Wachtell is worse than Hunton Williams, but all big firm practices entail sacrifices and your individual experience is going to be unpredictable.

By all means take a look at them - and it's especially healthy to not be blindly chasing PRESTIGE - but it's possible to take things too far in the opposite direction as well.

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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:06 pm

Thanks again! I made a few more changes (also, why was I posting at 7 AM? @_@)

Nelson: I bumped up Cleary, Simpson, Paul Weiss and Davis Polk. Hopefully I should get most of these big firms with 100 or so interview slots as they're in my top 15 now.

Anon at 8:29: Thanks! I think I'll still bid them at 1 (and this is much better than my first bidlist which was just the V10 :D) but I'm going to keep prestige or lack of it in mind with interviews and accepting callbacks.

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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:01 pm

I interviewed with a similar GPA at P a few years back. I would reiterate others' advice about narrowing your markets down. I did NY/DC and got the impression in some callbacks that people disliked my interviewing in another city. You might be able to avoid sharing this information but I remember being asked outright if I was interviewing in NYC too. Though, your extensive ties to DC might help alleviate concerns (since this was more of an issue with DC firms).

I don't know that the bay area firms are a great use of high bids since you don't have ties (our CA placement is not great). If you have a lot of start-up experience, may as well try for Wilson/Cooley/Gunderson, but for firms like MoFo I'd recommend bidding for NY instead.

Given your grades, I think you are selling yourself short by using your #1 bid on Freshfields. Magic circle firms are great if you want to interview for London (in which case, bid on the London offices), but not anything special in NYC. A lot of U.S. firms have offices abroad (and you are no more/less likely to get sent to them than if you are at a British firm), so you're best off going somewhere with a more secure U.S. office. If you're looking for a friendlier culture (keeping in mind that there is a lot of variation in every firm and none of them are all that nice), I'd use your top bid on something like Covington (if you're leaning DC) or Cleary (if you're leaning NYC). Do Sidley DC/NY instead of Chicago and lose Pepper Hamilton unless you actually want to work in Philly. I would also say lose Wachtell in your top 30 -- I think you are bidding it too low to get an interview, which I assume is because you know it isn't going to happen, so you may as well use that spot for something else.

Did you choose Kaye Scholer and Shulte Roth for any particular reason or just random picks to round out the vault rankings in your top 30?

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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I interviewed with a similar GPA at P a few years back. I would reiterate others' advice about narrowing your markets down. I did NY/DC and got the impression in some callbacks that people disliked my interviewing in another city. You might be able to avoid sharing this information but I remember being asked outright if I was interviewing in NYC too. Though, your extensive ties to DC might help alleviate concerns (since this was more of an issue with DC firms).

I don't know that the bay area firms are a great use of high bids since you don't have ties (our CA placement is not great). If you have a lot of start-up experience, may as well try for Wilson/Cooley/Gunderson, but for firms like MoFo I'd recommend bidding for NY instead.

Given your grades, I think you are selling yourself short by using your #1 bid on Freshfields. Magic circle firms are great if you want to interview for London (in which case, bid on the London offices), but not anything special in NYC. A lot of U.S. firms have offices abroad (and you are no more/less likely to get sent to them than if you are at a British firm), so you're best off going somewhere with a more secure U.S. office. If you're looking for a friendlier culture (keeping in mind that there is a lot of variation in every firm and none of them are all that nice), I'd use your top bid on something like Covington (if you're leaning DC) or Cleary (if you're leaning NYC). Do Sidley DC/NY instead of Chicago and lose Pepper Hamilton unless you actually want to work in Philly. I would also say lose Wachtell in your top 30 -- I think you are bidding it too low to get an interview, which I assume is because you know it isn't going to happen, so you may as well use that spot for something else.

Did you choose Kaye Scholer and Shulte Roth for any particular reason or just random picks to round out the vault rankings in your top 30?


Hey! Thanks for the advice! I've ended up revising my list pretty heavily with a lot more of a DC focus (as while I'd love to be in the bay area doing start up stuff and I'm fine living in NYC, my top choice is staying in DC). As for why Schulte? They had a great firm reception and I really liked the people there (though as I've done more research, they've slowly been creeping down my bidlist). Hopefully I won't do any more revising today, but, how does this look?

Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP (Washington, DC)
Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati, P.C. (Palo Alto, CA)
Gunderson Dettmer Stough Villeneuve Franklin & Hachigian, LLP (Redwood City, CA)
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP (Washington, DC)
Covington & Burling LLP (Washington, DC)
Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP (New York, NY)
Cooley LLP (Palo Alto, CA)
Debevoise & Plimpton LLP (New York, NY)
Hogan Lovells (Washington, DC)
Jones Day (Washington, DC)
Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP (New York, NY)
Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP (Armonk, NY)
WilmerHale LLP (Washington, DC)
Arnold & Porter LLP (Washington, DC)
Latham & Watkins LLP (Washington, DC)
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP (New York, NY)
Kirkland & Ellis LLP (Washington, DC)
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP (New York, NY)
Williams & Connolly LLP (Washington, DC)
Sullivan & Cromwell LLP (New York, NY)
Davis Polk & Wardwell (New York, NY)
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP (New York, NY)
Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP (Washington, DC)
Wiley Rein LLP (Washington, DC)
Shearman & Sterling LLP (New York, NY)
Schulte Roth & Zabel LLP (New York, NY)
Steptoe & Johnson LLP (Washington, DC)
Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP (New York, NY)
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP (New York, NY)
Sidley Austin LLP (Chicago, IL)
K&L Gates LLP (Washington, DC)
Pepper Hamilton LLP (Philadelphia, PA)
Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP (San Francisco, CA)
Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen and Katz (New York, NY)
Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP (Philadelphia, PA)
Ballard Spahr LLP (Philadelphia, PA)
Paul Hastings LLP (New York, NY)
Baker Botts L.L.P. (Houston, TX)
Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP (New York, NY)
Cahill Gordon & Reindel LLP (New York, NY)
Dechert LLP (Philadelphia, PA)
Patton Boggs LLP (Washington, DC)
Holland & Knight LLP (New York, NY)
Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP (Washington, DC)
Vinson & Elkins L.L.P. (Austin, TX)
Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP (Philadelphia, PA)
Clifford Chance US LLP (New York, NY)
Kaye Scholer LLP (New York, NY)
Morrison & Foerster LLP (San Francisco, CA)
Linklaters LLP (New York, NY)
Fish & Richardson P.C. (New York, NY)
Dechert LLP (New York, NY)
Allen & Overy LLP (New York, NY)
O'Melveny & [deleted] LLP (New York, NY)
Cozen O'Connor (Philadelphia, PA)
Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP (Washington, DC)
Kasowitz Benson Torres & Friedman LLP (New York, NY)
Proskauer LLP (New York, NY)
Fitzpatrick, Cella, Harper & Scinto (Costa Mesa, CA)
Venable LLP (Baltimore, MD)
Stroock & Stroock & Lavan LLP (New York, NY)

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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:39 pm

Looks good, though if your first choice is DC, I would move up every DC firm before Philly/Texas/SF firms. (Did they not have a DC option for BB?) Akin and Fried Frank seem to be pretty good places to work so those may at least be worth moving up (maybe before Shearman NY). Even outside your top 20-30 bids, you usually get a few of your picks, so may as well use all of them wisely. As for your #1, just fyi, Skadden DC has a pretty New York-ish culture (which isn't a good thing considering that some of the other DC offices are less intense). They of course do good work, but it wouldn't be in my top 10 of DC offices to work in. Just a thought.

Is Paul Weiss DC doing OCI at Penn? If so, it might be worth bidding on instead of NY (or, if not, applying to separately). The NY office has a bigger summer class but I think they are expanding the DC office and people seem to like working there.

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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Venable LLP (Baltimore, MD)


Just a random note fwiw, Venable's Baltimore office seems to hire people with strong ties to Baltimore (i.e. one of the sa's is the son of a partner there and one is a daughter of a big lawyer in Baltimore, both from umd, neither on lr)

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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Looks good, though if your first choice is DC, I would move up every DC firm before Philly/Texas/SF firms. (Did they not have a DC option for BB?) Akin and Fried Frank seem to be pretty good places to work so those may at least be worth moving up (maybe before Shearman NY). Even outside your top 20-30 bids, you usually get a few of your picks, so may as well use all of them wisely. As for your #1, just fyi, Skadden DC has a pretty New York-ish culture (which isn't a good thing considering that some of the other DC offices are less intense). They of course do good work, but it wouldn't be in my top 10 of DC offices to work in. Just a thought.

Is Paul Weiss DC doing OCI at Penn? If so, it might be worth bidding on instead of NY (or, if not, applying to separately). The NY office has a bigger summer class but I think they are expanding the DC office and people seem to like working there.


Again, thanks! I liked both Fried Frank and Akin Gump when they did receptions at Penn and almost completely forgot about bidding their DC offices. I think I've got about my final list with these changes:

Covington & Burling LLP (Washington, DC)
Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati, P.C. (Palo Alto, CA)
Gunderson Dettmer Stough Villeneuve Franklin & Hachigian, LLP (Redwood City, CA)
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP (Washington, DC)
Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP (Armonk, NY)
Cooley LLP (Palo Alto, CA)
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP (Washington, DC)
Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP (New York, NY)
Debevoise & Plimpton LLP (New York, NY)
Hogan Lovells (Washington, DC)
Jones Day (Washington, DC)
Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP (New York, NY)
WilmerHale LLP (Washington, DC)
Arnold & Porter LLP (Washington, DC)
Latham & Watkins LLP (Washington, DC)
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP (New York, NY)
Kirkland & Ellis LLP (Washington, DC)
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP (New York, NY)
Williams & Connolly LLP (Washington, DC)
Sullivan & Cromwell LLP (New York, NY)
Davis Polk & Wardwell (New York, NY)
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP (New York, NY)
Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP (Washington, DC)
Wiley Rein LLP (Washington, DC)
Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP (Washington, DC)
Baker Botts L.L.P. (Washington, DC)
Shearman & Sterling LLP (New York, NY)
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP (New York, NY)
Steptoe & Johnson LLP (Washington, DC)
Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP (New York, NY)

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Emma.
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Re: Done well at P, how does this look?

Postby Emma. » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Looks good, though if your first choice is DC, I would move up every DC firm before Philly/Texas/SF firms. (Did they not have a DC option for BB?) Akin and Fried Frank seem to be pretty good places to work so those may at least be worth moving up (maybe before Shearman NY). Even outside your top 20-30 bids, you usually get a few of your picks, so may as well use all of them wisely. As for your #1, just fyi, Skadden DC has a pretty New York-ish culture (which isn't a good thing considering that some of the other DC offices are less intense). They of course do good work, but it wouldn't be in my top 10 of DC offices to work in. Just a thought.

Is Paul Weiss DC doing OCI at Penn? If so, it might be worth bidding on instead of NY (or, if not, applying to separately). The NY office has a bigger summer class but I think they are expanding the DC office and people seem to like working there.


Again, thanks! I liked both Fried Frank and Akin Gump when they did receptions at Penn and almost completely forgot about bidding their DC offices. I think I've got about my final list with these changes:

Covington & Burling LLP (Washington, DC)
Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati, P.C. (Palo Alto, CA)
Gunderson Dettmer Stough Villeneuve Franklin & Hachigian, LLP (Redwood City, CA)
Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP (Washington, DC)
Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP (Armonk, NY)
Cooley LLP (Palo Alto, CA)
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP (Washington, DC)
Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP (New York, NY)
Debevoise & Plimpton LLP (New York, NY)
Hogan Lovells (Washington, DC)
Jones Day (Washington, DC)
Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP (New York, NY)
WilmerHale LLP (Washington, DC)
Arnold & Porter LLP (Washington, DC)
Latham & Watkins LLP (Washington, DC)
Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP (New York, NY)
Kirkland & Ellis LLP (Washington, DC)
Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison LLP (New York, NY)
Williams & Connolly LLP (Washington, DC)
Sullivan & Cromwell LLP (New York, NY)
Davis Polk & Wardwell (New York, NY)
Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP (New York, NY)
Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP (Washington, DC)
Wiley Rein LLP (Washington, DC)
Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP (Washington, DC)
Baker Botts L.L.P. (Washington, DC)
Shearman & Sterling LLP (New York, NY)
Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP (New York, NY)
Steptoe & Johnson LLP (Washington, DC)
Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP (New York, NY)


Gunderson Dettmer is a cool firm, but their model (only early stage startups) seems kind of risky to me. Why not switch them out with one of the DC firms you have listed lower down if DC is your top choice?




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