No Offer Guide and Support thread (no advice for SAs, 1Ls)

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rad lulz
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:41 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

NYstate
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby NYstate » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:42 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anon from before. I'm not trolling--this is 100% what happened.

Probably not trolling

I remember someone had poasted ab a seizure no offer before here

It's an unlikely long troll


I remember this as well. I think they were asking if they should disclose their medical condition or not because of fears it would affect their SA.

Maybe I'll try to find it.

Anonymous User
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:45 pm

These are all good posts, the reality is that the world doesn't give two shits about anyone: The exception is if you have lots and lots of money or lots and lots of connections. I graduated from a T10 and still don't have a job - I was so close to a 2L SA in a major market that I had the hiring partner call me and explain that everyone gave me the go ahead for an offer, but that my grades were very low, and he had the final decision. After making a 30 minute pitch, the dude rejected me the next day.

I worked my ass off while in law school working full-time for a fed agency, and then for a private firm. I worked for the private firm for my entire 3L year and was looking to move to their west coast office with a "guaranteed job" in their east cost office. 3 weeks before graduation, my boss quit the firm and my position was gone at the snap of a finger.

This shit isn't easy - I spent my entire 3L year thanking the lord above that I had not only found something I liked to do more than law, but that I was going to be working in a great city, at a job with decent salary and huge upside. The fact I struck out at OCI and had to listen to 75% of my school brag about their firms while I worked my ass off was worth it. Unfortunately, all that hard work can be thrown out the window because of something that has nothing to do with you. My boss quit because he didn't like the direction the firm was going, or something like that. After 9 years as a partner there, he up and quit during the 3 weeks that he absolutely could not quit in order for me to have a job - unfortunately, that is the real world, and all your peers with firm jobs will experience it soon enough.

rad lulz
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:50 pm

NYstate wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anon from before. I'm not trolling--this is 100% what happened.

Probably not trolling

I remember someone had poasted ab a seizure no offer before here

It's an unlikely long troll


I remember this as well. I think they were asking if they should disclose their medical condition or not because of fears it would affect their SA.

Maybe I'll try to find it.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=203705&hilit=medical+condition

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NinerFan
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby NinerFan » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
NYstate wrote:Regarding recommendations- be careful trusting the hiring partner. They will be asked why their firm didn't hire you. To protect themselves and their firm, they will almost inevitably come up with some negatives. They are never going to say that they have budget issues and they don't want to look like fools for not hiring you in the first place.

If you have other options for recommendations particularly a partner in a specific practice group, maybe try them first.


+ fucking 1

I think I may be the person OP is referring to when he (she?) said "I remember reading at least one story in the Vale where a hiring partner told a person he would give a favorable recommendation, then later gave a less than favorable one."

Story:

After I got the no offer call, they told me it wasn't my fault, and the hiring partner said he'd be more than happy to recommend me to others. Cool. So I get an interview with this midlaw firm I really like in an area I like. I do the phone screener and get the CB the next day. This is my only firm CB in the fall. They want some references, so I ask old firm hiring partner (OFHP) to be one, and OFHP is nice enough to even ask around his firm for me for any inside details about my interview. At this point I am down in the dumps and again, this is my only firm interview. I'm glad to have a good reference from my firm on my side.

So I get down there and I just KILL the interview. By this point I know a good interview when I see one. Everyone really likes me, and they even organize an impromptu meet and greet at a bar for me. These people were seriously awesome. Didn't even ask what happened to me this summer. Some people around town I know even called these guys on my behalf. At this point my self worth was still pretty tied to whether I could get a job, so I was feelin good.

I kept waiting for the decision. They tell me in November it's between me and two other people. It's cool, don't panic, prepare yourself for disappointment just in case. And then it came. The firm hiring partner emailed me and said it came down to me and another guy. They went with the other guy. The hiring partner said they really liked me, that he hoped to work with me in the future, and that if they had any more work they'd give me a call. He said to give him a call because he wanted to talk to me about how I could improve my interview.

So when I call him, he immediately says I needed a new reference. He refused to get specific with what was said, but he told me one of my reference was not good and really detracted from my candidacy. I asked him which reference it was, and he wouldn't tell me who it was, just someone at a firm I had worked for. Right then I knew it was OFHP, because he was the only reference from a firm I had listed. I couldn't believe I got stabbed in the back. Why lie to someone and tell them you will give them a good reference when you clearly won't? I went to lunch with some attorneys in town right afterward and ended up breaking down crying in front of one of them in the parking lot. I was just so hurt and angry about what went down. The only law firm interview I had managed to wrangle in 4 months, down the tubes.

I really appreciated what that hiring partner did for me when he didn't have to. I never spoke to OFHP again, but I really hope what goes around comes around.


This is one of the most terrible things I've ever read on here. Jesus. If you can't give someone a positive rec, FFS, just decline. I can't imagine ever doing that to anyone unless they somehow personally wronged me.

Anonymous User
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
+ fucking 1

I think I may be the person OP is referring to when he (she?) said "I remember reading at least one story in the Vale where a hiring partner told a person he would give a favorable recommendation, then later gave a less than favorable one."

Story:

After I got the no offer call, they told me it wasn't my fault, and the hiring partner said he'd be more than happy to recommend me to others. Cool. So I get an interview with this midlaw firm I really like in an area I like. I do the phone screener and get the CB the next day. This is my only firm CB in the fall. They want some references, so I ask old firm hiring partner (OFHP) to be one, and OFHP is nice enough to even ask around his firm for me for any inside details about my interview. At this point I am down in the dumps and again, this is my only firm interview. I'm glad to have a good reference from my firm on my side.
......
So when I call him, he immediately says I needed a new reference. He refused to get specific with what was said, but he told me one of my reference was not good and really detracted from my candidacy. I asked him which reference it was, and he wouldn't tell me who it was, just someone at a firm I had worked for. Right then I knew it was OFHP, because he was the only reference from a firm I had listed. I couldn't believe I got stabbed in the back. Why lie to someone and tell them you will give them a good reference when you clearly won't? I went to lunch with some attorneys in town right afterward and ended up breaking down crying in front of one of them in the parking lot. I was just so hurt and angry about what went down. The only law firm interview I had managed to wrangle in 4 months, down the tubes.

I really appreciated what that hiring partner did for me when he didn't have to. I never spoke to OFHP again, but I really hope what goes around comes around.


This is just plain evil. I don't even know what to say.

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Postby Myself » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:32 am

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Last edited by Myself on Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:31 am

Good luck everyone. I remember how irate I was. I drank a ton, drove home so drunk that it was unsafe for me to be walking, and my wife found my laying on the floor crying. It was one of the worst few days of my life.

I called my old boss from a previous career the next day and told him I'd drop out of law school if he had a job for me.

It was made worse because everyone I knew would ask "so, are you going back to [firm]." Umm, probably not. I hope you die. F--- you for asking.

I was lucky because the "get a clerkship" advice ended up turning my career around, but I couldn't imagine a worse feeling.

rad lulz
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:31 am

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Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:06 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ludo!
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby Ludo! » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:33 pm

+1 to all of that. I worked at a smaller office of a biglaw firm and I got to know every single person over the summer. I went to every social event. I met people's husbands and wives and kids. I had lunch with these people every day. My entire summer revolved around this firm and these people. And in my head this is what I thought my life was going to be for the foreseeable future. At the very last social event of the summer one of the partners on the hiring committee said to my fiance "we can't wait until you move up here."

So yeah, you feel all summer that the job is yours. You hear the horror stories about people who get no offered because they did something crazy like hit on a partner's wife, and you know you'll never do something like that so you assume you're safe.

It also sucked for me because this was basically my last shot at not being a loser. I did everything "right". I went to a T25 school with a big scholarship, I was in the top 5% of my class after 1l year, I made law review, I went to the firm where I thought I fit in the best with a normally pretty high offer rate. I had been poor my entire life and I thought I was finally going to make something of myself. And all of that was destroyed with one phone call.

And then there is the shame and embarrassment. People know you are "supposed" to be going back to your summer firm after graduation. It feels like people are always assuming that it's your fault, that you did something wrong. There are assholes on TLS who keep parroting the myths that people only get no offered for doing terrible work or being 'aspie'. People around you will always have lingering suspicions that you did something horrible you're not telling them. One time at a family BBQ over the summer I got a little too drunk and was being kind of loud and my mom asked me if this is how I acted at firm events and that's why I got no offered. That kind of shit hurts.

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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby Broseidon » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:05 pm

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Last edited by Broseidon on Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:38 pm

Broseidon if you do have one of those small firm law clerk positions I'd absolutely take that situation any day over getting no offered

When I was looking for jobs, THOSE were the jobs I was looking for

rad lulz
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:46 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Broseidon
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby Broseidon » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:00 pm

rad lulz wrote:Broseidon if you do have one of those small firm law clerk positions I'd absolutely take that situation any day over getting no offered

When I was looking for jobs, THOSE were the jobs I was looking for

Yea it's basically what I'm targeting now. Hoping for the best, but usually they are 2L summer and stay on for 3L year kind of gigs. Sucks that it won't really be 3LOL for me (and it will be for most of my friends) but it's been over a month and I'm starting to get over feeling sorry for myself. Although I'm really dreading the first law review meeting of the year and being surrounded by a bunch of people who got offers and will inevitably be talking about it.

rad lulz
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:04 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Broseidon
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby Broseidon » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:16 pm

Oh I definitely won't be going to any optional events this time around. But I'm on the e-board so I can't avoid them completely. Fortunately my closest friends, if they get offers, are chill dudes who know it's a sore subject.

NYstate
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby NYstate » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:18 pm

The shame part puzzles me. Pretty much everyone is getting screwed over when they get no- offered. I've never met anyone who was truly no offered because of their work. Maybe a partner didn't like them or finances changed or they started off with a bad impression for no reason. One girl I know got no offered but her personality truly just didn't fit, it was hard to quantify. But she is an exception.

To blame yourself for getting no offered makes it so much worse. To the firm it is just business. It isn't your fault- it can honestly be bad luck. Maybe people want to believe they have more control than they actually do.

I think that everyone ITT can blame the economy for getting no- offered. The economy isn't in your control.

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Broseidon
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby Broseidon » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:32 pm

Is that why people ITT are upset though? Doesn't really seem like anyone is lamenting the reason (at least anymore). Sounds to me that it's just anger/frustration/sadness at the result and fear about what whether they can salvage their legal careers.

That said, I can't imagine how it feels to be no-offered if you had multiple firms offering you an SA position. I know I would dwell on the whole "what if I picked a different firm" thing for a very, very long time.

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Ludo!
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby Ludo! » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:35 pm

The shame comes from the fact that other people did get offers. It's not like everybody in my class got no offered. Just me and one other person. There must be some reason they picked us

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worldtraveler
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby worldtraveler » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:40 pm

NinerFan wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
NYstate wrote:Regarding recommendations- be careful trusting the hiring partner. They will be asked why their firm didn't hire you. To protect themselves and their firm, they will almost inevitably come up with some negatives. They are never going to say that they have budget issues and they don't want to look like fools for not hiring you in the first place.

If you have other options for recommendations particularly a partner in a specific practice group, maybe try them first.


+ fucking 1

I think I may be the person OP is referring to when he (she?) said "I remember reading at least one story in the Vale where a hiring partner told a person he would give a favorable recommendation, then later gave a less than favorable one."

Story:

After I got the no offer call, they told me it wasn't my fault, and the hiring partner said he'd be more than happy to recommend me to others. Cool. So I get an interview with this midlaw firm I really like in an area I like. I do the phone screener and get the CB the next day. This is my only firm CB in the fall. They want some references, so I ask old firm hiring partner (OFHP) to be one, and OFHP is nice enough to even ask around his firm for me for any inside details about my interview. At this point I am down in the dumps and again, this is my only firm interview. I'm glad to have a good reference from my firm on my side.

So I get down there and I just KILL the interview. By this point I know a good interview when I see one. Everyone really likes me, and they even organize an impromptu meet and greet at a bar for me. These people were seriously awesome. Didn't even ask what happened to me this summer. Some people around town I know even called these guys on my behalf. At this point my self worth was still pretty tied to whether I could get a job, so I was feelin good.

I kept waiting for the decision. They tell me in November it's between me and two other people. It's cool, don't panic, prepare yourself for disappointment just in case. And then it came. The firm hiring partner emailed me and said it came down to me and another guy. They went with the other guy. The hiring partner said they really liked me, that he hoped to work with me in the future, and that if they had any more work they'd give me a call. He said to give him a call because he wanted to talk to me about how I could improve my interview.

So when I call him, he immediately says I needed a new reference. He refused to get specific with what was said, but he told me one of my reference was not good and really detracted from my candidacy. I asked him which reference it was, and he wouldn't tell me who it was, just someone at a firm I had worked for. Right then I knew it was OFHP, because he was the only reference from a firm I had listed. I couldn't believe I got stabbed in the back. Why lie to someone and tell them you will give them a good reference when you clearly won't? I went to lunch with some attorneys in town right afterward and ended up breaking down crying in front of one of them in the parking lot. I was just so hurt and angry about what went down. The only law firm interview I had managed to wrangle in 4 months, down the tubes.

I really appreciated what that hiring partner did for me when he didn't have to. I never spoke to OFHP again, but I really hope what goes around comes around.


This is one of the most terrible things I've ever read on here. Jesus. If you can't give someone a positive rec, FFS, just decline. I can't imagine ever doing that to anyone unless they somehow personally wronged me.


I'm just going to add that even if you think your reference will say good things, if they are writing a letter for you try and see if you can see a copy of it before it is turned in, or be 100% confident that they will say wonderful things and know what to say.

For one job offer I got totally hosed because my LOR writer just did not understand what went into an LOR. She said nice things about me, but it was all "WT is a nice person" and more of a character reference, and nothing about my quality of work. It really made it sound like I was fun to socialize with but not the hardest worker, which really wasn't what the place needed to hear. I think she really just didn't know how to write one. Other LOR writers just clearly know what to say and how to say it, and focus on the important stuff.

rad lulz
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:48 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:14 pm

I know this may not be a relevant question, but what kind of advice would you give rising 2Ls when choosing law offices? Do Biglaws in major markets also do this to their SAs? Or is it more often in smaller offices of big laws in secondary markets?

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glitched
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby glitched » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:19 pm

Sorry to everyone here but thanks for the awesome advice. SA here with some questions.

How did your mid summer reviews go and do you think that is any indication?
Are any of you hard ip? Specifically patent lit/pros?
We're any of you at HYSCCN and does that even matter anymore for 3L job search?
Did your grades significantly improve or worsen 2L year, and do you think that matters?

rad lulz
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Re: Guide to Getting No Offered / No Offer Support thread

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:32 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.




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