2014 Vault Rankings

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thefuturenow
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby thefuturenow » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:22 pm

Do we have to?

nymario
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby nymario » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:26 pm

Who fell off? Four new faces on the list. Dewey is one. Kasowitz Benson is another I think? Anyone have a side by side to compare offhand?

kaiser
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby kaiser » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:26 pm

A circle of self-perpetuating irrelevance

johndhi
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby johndhi » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:26 pm

Good for Boies.

fanlinxun
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby fanlinxun » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:38 pm

Nothing to discuss. Not really getting excited about S&C now being .06 points above Skadden and everything else in the top 15 remaining the same. Actually, wouldn't be much more exciting if the rankings flipped entirely. Seriously, they mean nothing to anyone except lawyers. If you don't believe me drop the name of any V-10 firm at a gathering of non-lawyers and wait for them to ask if you do personal injury work.

Anonymous User
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:41 pm

fanlinxun wrote:Nothing to discuss. Not really getting excited about S&C now being .06 points above Skadden and everything else in the top 15 remaining the same. Actually, wouldn't be much more exciting if the rankings flipped entirely. Seriously, they mean nothing to anyone except lawyers. If you don't believe me drop the name of any V-10 firm at a gathering of non-lawyers and wait for them to ask if you do personal injury work.


Outside of lawyers, its only a select few firms with really big "brands" that people seem to know. They release a list each year of firms with the best brands based on non-lawyer recognition. Skadden, Jones Day, DLA Piper, K&L Gates, etc. are usually the top few since people outside law recognize these large firms as brands. I've had numerous non-lawyers (mostly businesspeople who are family friends) recognize the name Jones Day when I mentioned that I was doing an SA there.

fanlinxun
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby fanlinxun » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
fanlinxun wrote:Nothing to discuss. Not really getting excited about S&C now being .06 points above Skadden and everything else in the top 15 remaining the same. Actually, wouldn't be much more exciting if the rankings flipped entirely. Seriously, they mean nothing to anyone except lawyers. If you don't believe me drop the name of any V-10 firm at a gathering of non-lawyers and wait for them to ask if you do personal injury work.


Outside of lawyers, its only a select few firms with really big "brands" that people seem to know. They release a list each year of firms with the best brands based on non-lawyer recognition. Skadden, Jones Day, DLA Piper, K&L Gates, etc. are usually the top few since people outside law recognize these large firms as brands. I've had numerous non-lawyers (mostly businesspeople who are family friends) recognize the name Jones Day when I mentioned that I was doing an SA there.


Exactly, which is why the vault rankings are useless. It is funny that you would probably get more lay prestige at Jones Day or Baker and McKenzie than you would at Wachtell or Cravath. That said, I plan to stay in the legal field my entire career, so as a practical matter the perception of lawyers may be more important.

Anonymous User
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:49 pm

fanlinxun wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
fanlinxun wrote:Nothing to discuss. Not really getting excited about S&C now being .06 points above Skadden and everything else in the top 15 remaining the same. Actually, wouldn't be much more exciting if the rankings flipped entirely. Seriously, they mean nothing to anyone except lawyers. If you don't believe me drop the name of any V-10 firm at a gathering of non-lawyers and wait for them to ask if you do personal injury work.


Outside of lawyers, its only a select few firms with really big "brands" that people seem to know. They release a list each year of firms with the best brands based on non-lawyer recognition. Skadden, Jones Day, DLA Piper, K&L Gates, etc. are usually the top few since people outside law recognize these large firms as brands. I've had numerous non-lawyers (mostly businesspeople who are family friends) recognize the name Jones Day when I mentioned that I was doing an SA there.


Exactly, which is why the vault rankings are useless. It is funny that you would probably get more lay prestige at Jones Day or Baker and McKenzie than you would at Wachtell or Cravath. That said, I plan to stay in the legal field my entire career, so as a practical matter the perception of lawyers may be more important.


Lots of people plan, but lots of plans don't work out, so it ends up being a form of contingency. Sure, it wouldn't be a reason to pick Jones Day or Baker over a tippy top firm, but among peer firms, it can give a leg up in exit opportunities, especially if you plan to go in house to a large corporation.

Anonymous User
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:06 pm

While Vault rankings are not that cool, some of the Vault subscription stuff was somewhat helpful during OCI in terms of what people said about the work/culture/people at these firms. Not sure if those get updated with these rankings, but that's perhaps one benefit of the whole ordeal.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Lots of people plan, but lots of plans don't work out, so it ends up being a form of contingency. Sure, it wouldn't be a reason to pick Jones Day or Baker over a tippy top firm, but among peer firms, it can give a leg up in exit opportunities, especially if you plan to go in house to a large corporation.

If by "in house" you mean as a lawyer, then, extremely doubtful.

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Old Gregg
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Old Gregg » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:21 pm

Inhouse lawyers will know your firm. If they don't, that should worry you.

Prestigious firms will get a bump, but so will firms the counsel frequently works with.

Anonymous User
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:28 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Lots of people plan, but lots of plans don't work out, so it ends up being a form of contingency. Sure, it wouldn't be a reason to pick Jones Day or Baker over a tippy top firm, but among peer firms, it can give a leg up in exit opportunities, especially if you plan to go in house to a large corporation.

If by "in house" you mean as a lawyer, then, extremely doubtful.


My bad. I didn't mean necessarily as a lawyer. I just meant that if you end up with a corporation in a non-legal position. DIdn't mean in-house.

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Bronte
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Bronte » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:43 pm

fanlinxun wrote:Seriously, they mean nothing to anyone except lawyers. If you don't believe me drop the name of any V-10 firm at a gathering of non-lawyers and wait for them to ask if you do personal injury work.


fanlinxun wrote:Exactly, which is why the vault rankings are useless. It is funny that you would probably get more lay prestige at Jones Day or Baker and McKenzie than you would at Wachtell or Cravath. That said, I plan to stay in the legal field my entire career, so as a practical matter the perception of lawyers may be more important.


How does the fact that Vault rankings only matter to lawyers make them irrelevant? Lawyers are exactly the people that matter in the legal profession. Your posts read as if what matters is what lay people think at cocktail parties. You sort of acknowledge that in your last sentence, but if that's the case, why say the rest of the stuff you said? And before you say that lay people matter because it's corporations that pay for legal services, note that it's in-house counsel--lawyers--that select outside counsel.

I'm not saying Vault is super important. I'm just saying the fact that the rankings only matter to lawyers is not a good argument for their irrelevance.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:49 pm

.
Last edited by JamMasterJ on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:00 pm

Bronte wrote:
fanlinxun wrote:Seriously, they mean nothing to anyone except lawyers. If you don't believe me drop the name of any V-10 firm at a gathering of non-lawyers and wait for them to ask if you do personal injury work.


fanlinxun wrote:Exactly, which is why the vault rankings are useless. It is funny that you would probably get more lay prestige at Jones Day or Baker and McKenzie than you would at Wachtell or Cravath. That said, I plan to stay in the legal field my entire career, so as a practical matter the perception of lawyers may be more important.


How does the fact that Vault rankings only matter to lawyers make them irrelevant? Lawyers are exactly the people that matter in the legal profession. Your posts read as if what matters is what lay people think at cocktail parties. You sort of acknowledge that in your last sentence, but if that's the case, why say the rest of the stuff you said? And before you say that lay people matter because it's corporations that pay for legal services, note that it's in-house counsel--lawyers--that select outside counsel.

I'm not saying Vault is super important. I'm just saying the fact that the rankings only matter to lawyers is not a good argument for their irrelevance.


Vault is intended to measure prestige within the industry. Prestige, in fact, within a small slice of the industry because associates at big law firms do the surveys. My point is that after graduation, your prestige among lawyers will not necessarily translate to prestige among non-lawyers. For people whose friends and acquaintances are mostly non-lawyers, the vault rankings do not offer any value. The rankings therefore fail to confer the value (prestige) that they purport to confer. This renders the rankings irrelevant for many people.

As mentioned above, in house counsel rankings of firms differ from the Vault rankings quite a bit. So being at a top-ranked Vault firm does not even guarantee prestige within the industry. Many lawyers outside of New York have not heard of Wachtell or Cravath, but most of them have heard of DLA Piper.

I challenge you to give some reasons why the vault rankings are relevant. Come up with a few and we can debate them.

Anonymous User
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:07 pm

Bronte wrote:
fanlinxun wrote:Seriously, they mean nothing to anyone except lawyers. If you don't believe me drop the name of any V-10 firm at a gathering of non-lawyers and wait for them to ask if you do personal injury work.


fanlinxun wrote:Exactly, which is why the vault rankings are useless. It is funny that you would probably get more lay prestige at Jones Day or Baker and McKenzie than you would at Wachtell or Cravath. That said, I plan to stay in the legal field my entire career, so as a practical matter the perception of lawyers may be more important.


How does the fact that Vault rankings only matter to lawyers make them irrelevant? Lawyers are exactly the people that matter in the legal profession. Your posts read as if what matters is what lay people think at cocktail parties. You sort of acknowledge that in your last sentence, but if that's the case, why say the rest of the stuff you said? And before you say that lay people matter because it's corporations that pay for legal services, note that it's in-house counsel--lawyers--that select outside counsel.

I'm not saying Vault is super important. I'm just saying the fact that the rankings only matter to lawyers is not a good argument for their irrelevance.


yeah i'm still trying to figure out why "lay prestige" matters at all. the only reason a normal person should really worry about "prestige" is if its going to advance your position in some way, which lay prestige won't really help with.... unless you're trying to get out of the legal industry all together..... (and into an industry that doesn't know/care
about the legal industry)

omg jones day. so impressive. totally worth the lay prestige. maybe people from michigan should transfer to GULC because it has more "lay prestige"

also: vault rankings do seem to matter for exit options. a v10 is going to give you more exit options than baker and mckenzie. if more employment options isn't really something you'd worry about, just rely on that good ole lay prestige to keep you all warm and fuzzy inside.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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IrwinM.Fletcher
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby IrwinM.Fletcher » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I challenge you to give some reasons why the vault rankings are relevant.

Bro these rankings fuel my game with mongoloid paralegals from lowly NLJ firms. If you ain't droppin your V-whatever status in the opening line, you might as well just stay home.

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Lacepiece23
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Lacepiece23 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:21 pm

omg jones day. so impressive. totally worth the lay prestige. maybe people from michigan should transfer to GULC because it has more "lay prestige"



Not going to lie. I do enjoy when my friends comment on the fact that I go to an Ivy league law school. Does that make me a bad person?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:25 pm

Lacepiece23 wrote:
omg jones day. so impressive. totally worth the lay prestige. maybe people from michigan should transfer to GULC because it has more "lay prestige"



Not going to lie. I do enjoy when my friends comment on the fact that I go to an Ivy league law school. Does that make me a bad person?

If you go to Cornell, yes.

NYstate
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby NYstate » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:34 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Lacepiece23 wrote:
omg jones day. so impressive. totally worth the lay prestige. maybe people from michigan should transfer to GULC because it has more "lay prestige"



Not going to lie. I do enjoy when my friends comment on the fact that I go to an Ivy league law school. Does that make me a bad person?

If you go to Cornell, yes.


Every bit of law is prestige obsessed. At my sisters wedding is an uncle who practiced shit law and now runs drug court and other crap in some smaller city in Ohio. He is more arrogant about his career than most biglaw partners I know. He was wearing his shirt from the private country club they belong to, at least that is what I'm assuming it was. Just oozing with his need to show prestige and status. ( he's a good guy; just arrogant about career)

Because law is prestige obsessed it attracts people who will strive for that prestige and enjoy the relative status they find. They will also constantly rank each other on the prestige pecking order.

The Vault rankings play a role in ordering firms so you can know who is who by where they work.

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Lacepiece23
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Lacepiece23 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:37 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Lacepiece23 wrote:
omg jones day. so impressive. totally worth the lay prestige. maybe people from michigan should transfer to GULC because it has more "lay prestige"



Not going to lie. I do enjoy when my friends comment on the fact that I go to an Ivy league law school. Does that make me a bad person?

If you go to Cornell, yes.


Haha fair enough. I was sort of joking. Not really to be completely honest.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:42 pm

Lacepiece23 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Lacepiece23 wrote:
omg jones day. so impressive. totally worth the lay prestige. maybe people from michigan should transfer to GULC because it has more "lay prestige"



Not going to lie. I do enjoy when my friends comment on the fact that I go to an Ivy league law school. Does that make me a bad person?

If you go to Cornell, yes.


Haha fair enough. I was sort of joking. Not really to be completely honest.

Only a bad person would derive satisfaction from going to a T13 school. You call that prestige?

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Bronte
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Bronte » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Vault is intended to measure prestige within the industry. Prestige, in fact, within a small slice of the industry because associates at big law firms do the surveys. My point is that after graduation, your prestige among lawyers will not necessarily translate to prestige among non-lawyers. For people whose friends and acquaintances are mostly non-lawyers, the vault rankings do not offer any value. The rankings therefore fail to confer the value (prestige) that they purport to confer. This renders the rankings irrelevant for many people.

As mentioned above, in house counsel rankings of firms differ from the Vault rankings quite a bit. So being at a top-ranked Vault firm does not even guarantee prestige within the industry. Many lawyers outside of New York have not heard of Wachtell or Cravath, but most of them have heard of DLA Piper.

I challenge you to give some reasons why the vault rankings are relevant. Come up with a few and we can debate them.


Again you stated that the Vault rankings don't confer prestige outside of lawyers, most people's friends aren't lawyers, and thus the Vault rankings don't matter. Your underlying assumption is that what "matters" is the amount of prestige you have with your friends. Whether or not this matters, nobody is looking at the Vault rankings with an eye on what their lay friends are going to think.

And I'm not going to take you up on your challenge because it was never my intention to argue that the Vault rankings are important, as I've already said. It was just my intention to question your strange logic about lay prestige.

Anonymous User
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Re: 2014 Vault Rankings

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Bronte wrote:
fanlinxun wrote:yeah i'm still trying to figure out why "lay prestige" matters at all. the only reason a normal person should really worry about "prestige" is if its going to advance your position in some way, which lay prestige won't really help with.... unless you're trying to get out of the legal industry all together..... (and into an industry that doesn't know/care
about the legal industry)

omg jones day. so impressive. totally worth the lay prestige. maybe people from michigan should transfer to GULC because it has more "lay prestige"

also: vault rankings do seem to matter for exit options. a v10 is going to give you more exit options than baker and mckenzie. if more employment options isn't really something you'd worry about, just rely on that good ole lay prestige to keep you all warm and fuzzy inside.


I strongly disagree with the notion that a normal person shouldn't worry about prestige. People make decisions all the time based on the perceptions of others. Cars, homes, watches, cell phones, and yes, careers are all ways that people try to distinguish themselves from others. The problem with law students is that most of them still live in a very insular world where their perceptions of prestige are based on their law student peers. Once students have left school and begin to interact with non-lawyers in a variety of social settings they will discover that the V-10 firm does not impress others as much being a lawyer with a high salary. The classic post about S&C shoulder bags illustrates this point pretty well. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=195625

Vault rankings don't matter for exit options any more than the overall US News rankings matter for recruiting purposes. Headhunters do not anxiously bite their fingernails until the end of June hoping that their candidate's firm is still V-X. True story: I know a guy from Wachtel who wanted to go to a US law firm in China. It took him forever to find a position even though the hiring market was hot because none of the US firms' Chinese recruiters knew what a Wachtel was. This is just one example, but it illustrates that rankings don't matter as much as the brand name in many cases.

I will give you that Vault may be one place to start researching for someone who doesn't understand the biglaw scene. But IMO besides giving a general lay of the land it is fairly useless.




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