Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

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potted plant
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:01 pm

Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby potted plant » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:44 pm

Any opinion on where in my resume to list a research assistant position with a professor? I'm doing a small amount of work over the summer and will be working for a prof over the coming year. Under my Michigan Law section? Experience? Activities?

oblig.lawl.ref
Posts: 232
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:46 pm

So I got a question about special resumes indicating office of interest that OCP mentions in the handbook thing. Specifically I was wondering if Cooley requires one.

It says on Cooley's OCI info that candidates submitting resumes must select one office as their office of interest. I am assuming this doesn't warrant a special resume with the office of interest in the corner cause it doesn't explicitly say that. Anyone else notice the same thing/have an opinion on the matter?

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:34 am

3L here. Here's my take based on anecdote, experience, and conversations with people who interview at my t-20.

1) The "big law" firms with very, very low median GPAs (think 3.1) are always way overbid, and they're probably overbid at every other school as well. Don't bother.

2) Don't get too wrapped up in the numbers. After the interview they're thinking of you as all As, All As and a B or two, As & Bs, Bs with a few As, all Bs, etc. Obviously, don't bid all 3.7s if you have a 3.2. But I had a 3.2 and I bid almost exclusively on firms in the 3.4-3.6 range, and I had 8 callbacks. Knowing about the firm, having a good reason to want to go there, giving good reasons to be in the city, being personable and confident (I'm aspie so I bought this: How to Talk to Anyone: 92 Little Tricks for Big Success in Relationships) . . . all these things matter more than 0.2. I know people on law review that are working shit jobs, and I know people in the bottom half of the class with v-20. Long story short: pay attention to the numbers, but don't obsess.

3) Don't look like a turd. Dress nice, have a pretty resume (http://typographyforlawyers.com/resumes.html), get a haircut. I know a top-10%-er who--I am convinced--didn't get an offer b/c he dressed like a neckbeard. You don't need to spend $1k, but don't look cheap. Look like someone who could be put in front of fortune-50 executives. For guys that means an expensive-looking tie, polished dress shoes with no rubber soles, and any suit: so long as it's charcoal/ navy, 2 button, & fits well (it fits well after you've taken it to the tailor twice . . . don't use the guy in the arcade, he's awful).

4) Don't stalk your interviewers & don't read their articles. It's creepy. Know their practice group & know where they went to school. That's all you need to know. You should, however, stalk the firm. Know the big practice areas. For every firm you interview with, you should be able to tell this story convincingly: "I have a strong interest in two areas: first, [insert their major practice group here] because . . . [convincing reasons and anecdotes]; second, [insert practice group you're really interested in here] because . . . [convincing reasons and anecdotes]. Create a convincing narrative for each firm (they don't have to be consistent).

5) Be prepared to play up past work experience in a way that's relevant to the practice areas at the firm you're interviewing with.

6) classes don't matter; nothing matters but getting a job. I know someone who literally missed the first four weeks and he was fine. Absolutely anything that's even tangentially job related >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readings, going to class, getting behind, having absolutely no idea what's going on in any of your classes. One day I stayed home and spent 6 hours cold-calling attorneys who went to my undergrad: one conversation led to an interview and eventually an offer; totally worth it.

7) don't hate on career services. some are good and some are bad. if you get an appointment with someone who's useless, just make another appointment with someone else. When they suggest something, do it quickly, then ask them "now what?" Once they see you're taking their advice seriously, they'll become more invested in your job search. At least that was my experience.

8) another person and I decided we'd proofread each other's employment-related correspondence. We each caught a bunch of typos. I'm glad we did that.

9) secondary journals mean nothing . . . don't sweat it if you have zero law-school related activites. They hire the person they like over the person they don't like who was the treasurer of so-and-so group.

10) be able to confidently explain-away mediocre grades without sounding like you're making excuses.

11) find ways to play up your writing ability

12) before interviews, ask the career services people how to pronounce the firm's name if you have any doubt.

13) after oci, don't ask anyone "where are you going" . . . total faux pas

14) before OCI email a young, michigan associate at every firm you interview with.

15) go to the hospitality suites and events (it's awkward, i know); the first question they'll ask you is "who did you interview with," so be sure you remember their names. Also, don't treat the hospitality suites like a second-interview; don't talk shop unless they initiate. The purpose of a hospitality suite is--in my opinion--to watch you mingle. Make small talk, ask questions about how they like the city, find out who they had as a 1L, make a non-awkward exit ("well, I have to go prep for my next interview"), get their card. If you have a really good conversation with someone, reach out to them sometime after OCI and say that you really like the firm and ask what you can do to advance your candidacy.

16) with firms you mass-mail, reach out to attorneys in the practice areas you're interested in . . . that'll get your resume to the top of the pile

17) good luck. whether or not you get a job is in your control. no excuses. don't let off the throttle until you have an offer.

18) shit, I need to stop procrastinating and get some work done

19) I'm not PMing anyone

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wiz
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby wiz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
3) Don't look like a turd. Dress nice, have a pretty resume (http://typographyforlawyers.com/resumes.html), get a haircut. I know a top-10%-er who--I am convinced--didn't get an offer b/c he dressed like a neckbeard. You don't need to spend $1k, but don't look cheap. Look like someone who could be put in front of fortune-50 executives. For guys that means an expensive-looking tie, polished dress shoes with no rubber soles, and any suit: so long as it's charcoal/ navy, 2 button, & fits well (it fits well after you've taken it to the tailor twice . . . don't use the guy in the arcade, he's awful).



Is the advice on typographyforlawyers credited? I agree that the posted example is a pretty resume, but the consensus in most places seems to be do not exceed one page, period. Is a clean two-page resume with large margins really better than a condensed one-page resume with small margins?

Also, what format should be used for writing samples? Should I be using the layout here (http://typographyforlawyers.com/research-memos.html) to make the writing "optimally legible," or should I just stick with the standard double spacing with one-inch margins?

GMVarun
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby GMVarun » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:32 pm

wiz wrote: Is the advice on typographyforlawyers credited? I agree that the posted example is a pretty resume, but the consensus in most places seems to be do not exceed one page, period. Is a clean two-page resume with large margins really better than a condensed one-page resume with small margins?

Also, what format should be used for writing samples? Should I be using the layout here (http://typographyforlawyers.com/research-memos.html) to make the writing "optimally legible," or should I just stick with the standard double spacing with one-inch margins?


I do not recommend a two-page resume. You should be able to have one page even with reasonable margins. The other advice on there looks fairly credited.

In terms of writing samples, I do not think it matters. Very few firms ask or want writing samples. The handful of firms that do ask will expect traditional 1 inch margins, but I can't imagine them caring either way. In terms of spacing, I used single spaced, because I hate the way double spaced looks and it wastes paper. From my experience, the few firms that actually ask for a writing sample will care more about the content (and will ask you to briefly lay out the arguments in a screener or CB).

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:25 pm

op here.

No, don't do a 2 page resume. I just meant pay attention to typography and formatting and such.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:3L here. Here's my take based on anecdote, experience, and conversations with people who interview at my t-20.

1) The "big law" firms with very, very low median GPAs (think 3.1) are always way overbid, and they're probably overbid at every other school as well. Don't bother.

2) Don't get too wrapped up in the numbers. After the interview they're thinking of you as all As, All As and a B or two, As & Bs, Bs with a few As, all Bs, etc. Obviously, don't bid all 3.7s if you have a 3.2. But I had a 3.2 and I bid almost exclusively on firms in the 3.4-3.6 range, and I had 8 callbacks. Knowing about the firm, having a good reason to want to go there, giving good reasons to be in the city, being personable and confident (I'm aspie so I bought this: How to Talk to Anyone: 92 Little Tricks for Big Success in Relationships) . . . all these things matter more than 0.2. I know people on law review that are working shit jobs, and I know people in the bottom half of the class with v-20. Long story short: pay attention to the numbers, but don't obsess.

3) Don't look like a turd. Dress nice, have a pretty resume (http://typographyforlawyers.com/resumes.html), get a haircut. I know a top-10%-er who--I am convinced--didn't get an offer b/c he dressed like a neckbeard. You don't need to spend $1k, but don't look cheap. Look like someone who could be put in front of fortune-50 executives. For guys that means an expensive-looking tie, polished dress shoes with no rubber soles, and any suit: so long as it's charcoal/ navy, 2 button, & fits well (it fits well after you've taken it to the tailor twice . . . don't use the guy in the arcade, he's awful).

4) Don't stalk your interviewers & don't read their articles. It's creepy. Know their practice group & know where they went to school. That's all you need to know. You should, however, stalk the firm. Know the big practice areas. For every firm you interview with, you should be able to tell this story convincingly: "I have a strong interest in two areas: first, [insert their major practice group here] because . . . [convincing reasons and anecdotes]; second, [insert practice group you're really interested in here] because . . . [convincing reasons and anecdotes]. Create a convincing narrative for each firm (they don't have to be consistent).

5) Be prepared to play up past work experience in a way that's relevant to the practice areas at the firm you're interviewing with.

6) classes don't matter; nothing matters but getting a job. I know someone who literally missed the first four weeks and he was fine. Absolutely anything that's even tangentially job related >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readings, going to class, getting behind, having absolutely no idea what's going on in any of your classes. One day I stayed home and spent 6 hours cold-calling attorneys who went to my undergrad: one conversation led to an interview and eventually an offer; totally worth it.

7) don't hate on career services. some are good and some are bad. if you get an appointment with someone who's useless, just make another appointment with someone else. When they suggest something, do it quickly, then ask them "now what?" Once they see you're taking their advice seriously, they'll become more invested in your job search. At least that was my experience.

8) another person and I decided we'd proofread each other's employment-related correspondence. We each caught a bunch of typos. I'm glad we did that.

9) secondary journals mean nothing . . . don't sweat it if you have zero law-school related activites. They hire the person they like over the person they don't like who was the treasurer of so-and-so group.

10) be able to confidently explain-away mediocre grades without sounding like you're making excuses.

11) find ways to play up your writing ability

12) before interviews, ask the career services people how to pronounce the firm's name if you have any doubt.

13) after oci, don't ask anyone "where are you going" . . . total faux pas

14) before OCI email a young, michigan associate at every firm you interview with.

15) go to the hospitality suites and events (it's awkward, i know); the first question they'll ask you is "who did you interview with," so be sure you remember their names. Also, don't treat the hospitality suites like a second-interview; don't talk shop unless they initiate. The purpose of a hospitality suite is--in my opinion--to watch you mingle. Make small talk, ask questions about how they like the city, find out who they had as a 1L, make a non-awkward exit ("well, I have to go prep for my next interview"), get their card. If you have a really good conversation with someone, reach out to them sometime after OCI and say that you really like the firm and ask what you can do to advance your candidacy.

16) with firms you mass-mail, reach out to attorneys in the practice areas you're interested in . . . that'll get your resume to the top of the pile

17) good luck. whether or not you get a job is in your control. no excuses. don't let off the throttle until you have an offer.

18) shit, I need to stop procrastinating and get some work done

19) I'm not PMing anyone


thanks for the advice, though you seem personable and not aspie

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:3L here. Here's my take based on anecdote, experience, and conversations with people who interview at my t-20.

1) The "big law" firms with very, very low median GPAs (think 3.1) are always way overbid, and they're probably overbid at every other school as well. Don't bother . . .


5) Be prepared to play up past work experience in a way that's relevant to the practice areas at the firm you're interviewing with.


Thanks for the post -- very helpful. I assume based on number 5 that you had pretty significant WE? Would you recommend bidding on similar firms (in the 3.4-3.5 range) for a K-JD slightly below 3.4? I'm a bit nervous to bid those firms since some of them have bottom quartile GPAs right around where mine is. FWIW, in mock interviews I've been told I interview pretty well.

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BuckinghamB
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby BuckinghamB » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:56 pm

potted plant wrote:Any opinion on where in my resume to list a research assistant position with a professor? I'm doing a small amount of work over the summer and will be working for a prof over the coming year. Under my Michigan Law section? Experience? Activities?


I would probably put it under Experience myself, but I don't think it would be weird at all to put it under the other sections you mentioned.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:58 pm

No employers from Indiana are showing up and I think they were previously (or I'm insane). Nobody wants to go to Indiana anyway, but those of you who were throwing bids at random Midwestern secondaries now have open slots if you had planned on throwing some there.

potted plant
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby potted plant » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:01 am

BuckinghamB wrote:
potted plant wrote:Any opinion on where in my resume to list a research assistant position with a professor? I'm doing a small amount of work over the summer and will be working for a prof over the coming year. Under my Michigan Law section? Experience? Activities?


I would probably put it under Experience myself, but I don't think it would be weird at all to put it under the other sections you mentioned.

Alright, thanks Buckingham.

What are people doing resume-wise for journals. I'm on a secondary now, but if I end up getting LR I'd do that instead. Should I just leave journals off my resume completely for the moment and revise it later on. Are we allowed to revise it after tomorrow? I'm a bit confused by the July 11th deadline to upload resumes to Symplicity.

Edit: Just realized this question was answered on the last page.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:No employers from Indiana are showing up and I think they were previously (or I'm insane). Nobody wants to go to Indiana anyway, but those of you who were throwing bids at random Midwestern secondaries now have open slots if you had planned on throwing some there.


This isn't correct. There are 5 firms coming from Indiana: Faegre, Ice Miller, Frost Brown, Hall Render, and Barrett McNagny.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:23 am

I hate the law review office. Its been 6 weeks now.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:No employers from Indiana are showing up and I think they were previously (or I'm insane). Nobody wants to go to Indiana anyway, but those of you who were throwing bids at random Midwestern secondaries now have open slots if you had planned on throwing some there.


This isn't correct. There are 5 firms coming from Indiana: Faegre, Ice Miller, Frost Brown, Hall Render, and Barrett McNagny.


Anon from above. You're correct. I must have messed with a filter on accident. My apologies.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:02 pm

LR calls going out. Good luck everybody.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:59 pm

Will LR finish making calls today? Will rejection emails be sent today too? UGH

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:04 pm

dammit and I was having such a peaceful sunday

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:27 am

Lol, they really did that on a Sunday? Glad I didn't check this thread earlier, would've been pissed had I ruined my Sunday checking my phone for that :lol:. Bidding starting soon, crazy.

Edit: Accidental anon, apologies.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:12 pm

Didn't apply for journals, really regretting my laziness. I guess there's no way to get on one this late? And the note write-on for law review next year is like a 1 in a million shot?

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm

Just did a mass-mail screener in a target secondary. Seemed to go alright, but there was one thing I forgot to mention during the interview. So, I sent the interviewer a thank you email from my phone and briefly mentioned it (I didn't have computer access all afternoon, so I figured it would be good to send an email ASAP while the interview was still fresh in his head). Proofread the email several times and it looked fine. Then I look at how it formatted on a computer, and it looks terrible, and there is a glaring typo, too. Feels terrible. Should I even bother saying anything about it?

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hyakku
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby hyakku » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:55 pm

Nah man, just let it go. It sucks that you have a typo in there, but most will advise you not to call attention to it even more than you have by writing the follow up email. Hopefully they just glance over it and don't notice, or alternatively, you really just slayed your interview such that they won't mind it. What's done is done.

To the anon regretting applying for journals, why be upset now? Unless you really are interested in a specific topic or want to clerk later, LR / Journal stuff is mainly to impress employers at OCI. I wouldn't stress out over it.

Edit: Also, I mean, statistically, your worst odds at writing on with the note is something like 1/435, assuming everyone participates. Not great, but better than 1 / million :lol:

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:11 pm

Is LR done making calls?

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outsidethescope
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby outsidethescope » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:3L here. Here's my take based on anecdote, experience, and conversations with people who interview at my t-20.

1) The "big law" firms with very, very low median GPAs (think 3.1) are always way overbid, and they're probably overbid at every other school as well. Don't bother.

2) Don't get too wrapped up in the numbers. After the interview they're thinking of you as all As, All As and a B or two, As & Bs, Bs with a few As, all Bs, etc. Obviously, don't bid all 3.7s if you have a 3.2. But I had a 3.2 and I bid almost exclusively on firms in the 3.4-3.6 range, and I had 8 callbacks. Knowing about the firm, having a good reason to want to go there, giving good reasons to be in the city, being personable and confident (I'm aspie so I bought this: How to Talk to Anyone: 92 Little Tricks for Big Success in Relationships) . . . all these things matter more than 0.2. I know people on law review that are working shit jobs, and I know people in the bottom half of the class with v-20. Long story short: pay attention to the numbers, but don't obsess.

3) Don't look like a turd. Dress nice, have a pretty resume (http://typographyforlawyers.com/resumes.html), get a haircut. I know a top-10%-er who--I am convinced--didn't get an offer b/c he dressed like a neckbeard. You don't need to spend $1k, but don't look cheap. Look like someone who could be put in front of fortune-50 executives. For guys that means an expensive-looking tie, polished dress shoes with no rubber soles, and any suit: so long as it's charcoal/ navy, 2 button, & fits well (it fits well after you've taken it to the tailor twice . . . don't use the guy in the arcade, he's awful).

4) Don't stalk your interviewers & don't read their articles. It's creepy. Know their practice group & know where they went to school. That's all you need to know. You should, however, stalk the firm. Know the big practice areas. For every firm you interview with, you should be able to tell this story convincingly: "I have a strong interest in two areas: first, [insert their major practice group here] because . . . [convincing reasons and anecdotes]; second, [insert practice group you're really interested in here] because . . . [convincing reasons and anecdotes]. Create a convincing narrative for each firm (they don't have to be consistent).

5) Be prepared to play up past work experience in a way that's relevant to the practice areas at the firm you're interviewing with.

6) classes don't matter; nothing matters but getting a job. I know someone who literally missed the first four weeks and he was fine. Absolutely anything that's even tangentially job related >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readings, going to class, getting behind, having absolutely no idea what's going on in any of your classes. One day I stayed home and spent 6 hours cold-calling attorneys who went to my undergrad: one conversation led to an interview and eventually an offer; totally worth it.

7) don't hate on career services. some are good and some are bad. if you get an appointment with someone who's useless, just make another appointment with someone else. When they suggest something, do it quickly, then ask them "now what?" Once they see you're taking their advice seriously, they'll become more invested in your job search. At least that was my experience.

8) another person and I decided we'd proofread each other's employment-related correspondence. We each caught a bunch of typos. I'm glad we did that.

9) secondary journals mean nothing . . . don't sweat it if you have zero law-school related activites. They hire the person they like over the person they don't like who was the treasurer of so-and-so group.

10) be able to confidently explain-away mediocre grades without sounding like you're making excuses.

11) find ways to play up your writing ability

12) before interviews, ask the career services people how to pronounce the firm's name if you have any doubt.

13) after oci, don't ask anyone "where are you going" . . . total faux pas

14) before OCI email a young, michigan associate at every firm you interview with.

15) go to the hospitality suites and events (it's awkward, i know); the first question they'll ask you is "who did you interview with," so be sure you remember their names. Also, don't treat the hospitality suites like a second-interview; don't talk shop unless they initiate. The purpose of a hospitality suite is--in my opinion--to watch you mingle. Make small talk, ask questions about how they like the city, find out who they had as a 1L, make a non-awkward exit ("well, I have to go prep for my next interview"), get their card. If you have a really good conversation with someone, reach out to them sometime after OCI and say that you really like the firm and ask what you can do to advance your candidacy.

16) with firms you mass-mail, reach out to attorneys in the practice areas you're interested in . . . that'll get your resume to the top of the pile

17) good luck. whether or not you get a job is in your control. no excuses. don't let off the throttle until you have an offer.

18) shit, I need to stop procrastinating and get some work done

19) I'm not PMing anyone


The Michigan Difference.

potted plant
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:01 pm

Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby potted plant » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:23 pm

Hey guys, bidding SF/SV non-IP. I'll probably add another market to fill out my list, but looking for feedback of my ordering here in terms of maximizing interviews. Any thoughts? Any other feedback is appreciated as well.

1. Mofo
2. Cooley
3. Wilson Sonsini
4. Jones Day
5. Gunderson Dettmer
6. O'Melveny
7. Gibson Dunn
8. DLA Piper
9. Sheppard Mullin
10. Shearman & Sterling
11. Dechert
12. Simpson Thacher
13. Hogan Lovells
14. Mayer Brown
15. Ropes & Gray
16. Kirkland
17. Perkins Coie
18. Schiff Hardin
19. Alston & Bird
20. Paul Hastings
21. Latham
22. Nixon Peabody
23. Pillsbury Winthrop

oblig.lawl.ref
Posts: 232
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:46 pm

That list looks pretty good. I have the same goal and my top 5 are pretty much identical to yours.

I have Latham significantly higher b/c I am really interested in their SV office and I wasn't sure how quickly the SV office slots would fill up. I know they weren't overbid last year but I wasn't sure how that shook out office to office.

Otherwise most of your bids are within the same 2-3 spots of mine. I tended to bid more dominant and interesting offices (to me anyways) higher (e.g. STB, Ropes, K&E) than you because I'd rather get an interview with them and lose a couple off my total than be stuck with an office like Dechert/Shearman which IIRC have very small SA classes in the Bay.

Good luck!




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