Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

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UnamSanctam
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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby UnamSanctam » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:15 pm

blackhawkfan wrote:
UnamSanctam wrote:You're better off knocking out those NYC bids with low interview rates (e.g. Paul Weiss) and putting a secondary market around Chicago there, provided you have the ties. You're not getting those bids and clearly you want to be around Chicago. If you're deadset on going to a big market like NYC if you don't get Chicago, then you either need to put the ones with low interview rates near the top, or you need to replace them with firms that interview as close to 100% of bids as you can.



no ties to any secondary, grew up in chicago, went to school in Illinois, interned every summer in Chicago, and worked in Chicago. honestly, I just really want to be in Chicago but can't come up with thirty Chicago firms to bid. Thus, just threw some easy to get interviews with New York on to round out the bid list. OCP told me to put Paul Weiss on, I hadn't checked their bid to interview ration. All the other New York Firms had fairly high bid to interview ratios I think. Or am I dreaming by bidding them after 20?


Grain of salt, but probably keep White & Case and Debevoise. No go on the others, and Gibson might be doable at 20 or 22, but even then I think you're getting risky.

ETA: Sorry, I meant Debevoise, not Milbank, and my text above correctly reflects the edit.
Last edited by UnamSanctam on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:33 pm

oblig.lawl.ref wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A 3.4 median for 1L means that the majority of the class had over a B+ average. Looking at the grades distributions Michigan provides, that is statistically impossible.


Anonymous User wrote:On another note, can we stop debating what median is? we have significant amounts of data on gpa from employers coming to oci. I don't fully understand what difference where 3.22 ranks makes for OCI when we have the other information.


I just have a hard time believing that 3.4 is median with some employers dipping down to closer to 3.0 and not just once or twice. Isn't 3.4 generally the cut-off for cum laude or something? Anyways, as noted before we can just base it off the provided gpa information.


Greater than 50% get cum laude at graduation. Even at graduation the cutoff for cum laude is below median. As for the statistical impossibility, you're assuming the median student got all median grades...this isn't a mean. In reality, some people will have an A in one class and a B in another, etc. Then you line all of them up by GPA and take the middle. Statistics tell you that the median can be well below, or above, the actual median in a given class. And a curve doesn't mean there isn't wide variation. A prof could give 1 A+ and a large number B+s/Bs while another could give lots of As and Cs. One of my profs gave like 1 A, 1 A-, and all the rest B+s and Bs. Where another prof gave a lot of As and Cs. Both would have the same median.

Further, lots of firms go below median...for some people. Be cautious relying on those min GPA numbers as they could be IP people, minorities, etc. But even for all people some firms have to go below median, there just aren't enough people to fill the positions otherwise. For example, if you look at my firm it looks like they go down to ~3.0. But according to the hiring partner, they have a firm floor well above that. They only dipped down that far for a specific reason and had to get permission from the main office to do so.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
oblig.lawl.ref wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A 3.4 median for 1L means that the majority of the class had over a B+ average. Looking at the grades distributions Michigan provides, that is statistically impossible.


Anonymous User wrote:On another note, can we stop debating what median is? we have significant amounts of data on gpa from employers coming to oci. I don't fully understand what difference where 3.22 ranks makes for OCI when we have the other information.


I just have a hard time believing that 3.4 is median with some employers dipping down to closer to 3.0 and not just once or twice. Isn't 3.4 generally the cut-off for cum laude or something? Anyways, as noted before we can just base it off the provided gpa information.


Greater than 50% get cum laude at graduation. Even at graduation the cutoff for cum laude is below median. As for the statistical impossibility, you're assuming the median student got all median grades. In reality, some people will have an A in one class and a B in another, etc. Then you line all of them up by GPA and take the middle. Statistics tell you that the median can be well below, or above, the actual median in a given class. And a curve doesn't mean there isn't wide variation. A prof could give 1 A+ and a large number B+s/Bs while another could give lots of As and Cs. One of my profs gave like 1 A, 1 A-, and all the rest B+s and Bs. Where another prof gave a lot of As and Cs. Both would have the same median.

Further, lots of firms go below median...for some people. Be cautious relying on those min GPA numbers as they could be IP people, minorities, etc. But even for all people some firms have to go below median, there just aren't enough people to fill the positions otherwise. For example, if you look at my firm it looks like they go down to ~3.0. But according to the hiring partner, they have a firm floor well above that. They only dipped down that far for a specific reason.


Why is it so difficult for you to understand that 2l and 3l grades are higher than 1l grades and thus the medians post graduation and the medians after 1l are dramatically different? Look at the grade distributions for the first semester on the registrar records page. Median last semester for 1ls was at a 3.2_ while median for the rest of the class was substantially higher. The only way for the median to be at a 3.4 for the first year class would be if the median second semester was at a 3.6. Think about that for a second. Then come back and explain how the median could be at a 3.4.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that 2l and 3l grades are higher than 1l grades and thus the medians post graduation and the medians after 1l are dramatically different? Look at the grade distributions for the first semester on the registrar records page. Median last semester for 1ls was at a 3.2_ while median for the rest of the class was substantially higher. The only way for the median to be at a 3.4 for the first year class would be if the median second semester was at a 3.6. Think about that for a second. Then come back and explain how the median could be at a 3.4.


What is so hard for you to understand that is the MEAN and not the MEDIAN. It says it right there....MEAN. https://www.law.umich.edu/currentstudents/registration/StudentOnlyDocuments/F12_combined_Grade_Reports.pdf

I'm not an idiot. I've been through this before. I've seen the data for both rising 2Ls and grads.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that 2l and 3l grades are higher than 1l grades and thus the medians post graduation and the medians after 1l are dramatically different? Look at the grade distributions for the first semester on the registrar records page. Median last semester for 1ls was at a 3.2_ while median for the rest of the class was substantially higher. The only way for the median to be at a 3.4 for the first year class would be if the median second semester was at a 3.6. Think about that for a second. Then come back and explain how the median could be at a 3.4.


What is so hard for you to understand that is the MEAN and not the MEDIAN. https://www.law.umich.edu/currentstudents/registration/StudentOnlyDocuments/F12_combined_Grade_Reports.pdf

OH YES BECAUSE THE MEDIAN IN A CLASS WITH 350+ STUDENTS IS GOING TO BE MULTIPLE STATISTICAL DISTRIBUTIONS AWAY FROM THE MEAN. Got it.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:44 pm

I know you have to be careful with those gpa numbers but we're not talking about cut-off/lowest gpa accepted here.

To minimize the data published here let me just tell you based on the gpa information provided to us multiple V50 firms' gpa medians are below a 3.4. Some V15 medians are roughly a 3.5. That's out of dozens of reported gpas. That means that MORE than half of the class recruited by some big name V50s (maybe even V25s) from Michigan are below what you say is median. This would mean they very regularly dip down closer to the bottom 1/3 or even 1/4 of the class. I doubt that is the case.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that 2l and 3l grades are higher than 1l grades and thus the medians post graduation and the medians after 1l are dramatically different? Look at the grade distributions for the first semester on the registrar records page. Median last semester for 1ls was at a 3.2_ while median for the rest of the class was substantially higher. The only way for the median to be at a 3.4 for the first year class would be if the median second semester was at a 3.6. Think about that for a second. Then come back and explain how the median could be at a 3.4.


What is so hard for you to understand that is the MEAN and not the MEDIAN. https://www.law.umich.edu/currentstudents/registration/StudentOnlyDocuments/F12_combined_Grade_Reports.pdf

OH YES BECAUSE THE MEDIAN IN A CLASS WITH 350+ STUDENTS IS GOING TO BE MULTIPLE STATISTICAL DISTRIBUTIONS AWAY FROM THE MEAN. Got it.


Uh yeah. The larger the number of students the more likely this is to happen actually.

Set 1 (1L): 2.7, 3, 3, 3, 3.3, 3.3, 4, 4, 4

Set 2 (upper class): 3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 4, 4, 4, 4

Set 1 = 3.36 (mean) and 3.3 (median)

Set 2 = 3.57 (mean) and 3.3 (median)

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:55 pm

oblig.lawl.ref wrote:I know you have to be careful with those gpa numbers but we're not talking about cut-off/lowest gpa accepted here.

To minimize the data published here let me just tell you based on the gpa information provided to us multiple V50 firms' gpa medians are below a 3.4. Some V15 medians are roughly a 3.5. That's out of dozens of reported gpas. That means that MORE than half of the class recruited by some big name V50s (maybe even V25s) from Michigan are below what you say is median. This would mean they very regularly dip down closer to the bottom 1/3 or even 1/4 of the class. I doubt that is the case.



The employment statistics demonstrate this must be true. Lots of people below median got BigLaw offers my year. In many cases, the higher the vault rank the larger the class and the lower they must dip. So say median is 3.5...that makes your number more believable. But a 3.2 is definitely not ABOVE median.

Also, the numbers you're seeing are still 5-year numbers right? That means they still include the Class of 2009 numbers: https://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classstats/Pages/employmentstats.aspx where >50% went to firms >500 people and when they still dipped much lower.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Uh yeah. The larger the number of students the more likely this is to happen actually.

Set 1 (1L): 2.7, 3, 3, 3, 3.3, 3.3, 4, 4, 4

Set 2 (upper class): 3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 4, 4, 4, 4

Set 1 = 3.36 (mean) and 3.3 (median)

Set 2 = 3.57 (mean) and 3.3 (median)

Lets stop and think why this cherry picked data set may not be indicative of reality. Lets ignore, for the time being, that Set 1 (the 1L class) has a mean and median that is fairly close and just look at the numbers picked here. Free dominics to the person that can spot the largest number of hilarious logical flaws. I'll start: Classes are supposed to be curved to a bell curve. Theoretically, this means that the mean and median should be close to identical. The more data points, the higher the likelihood that these numbers are closer than they are further apart. I'll give a second: The grade distributions in classes indicate that the vast number of grades given are either a B or a B+, the middle of which, amazingly, is around a 3.2 AND the number of A's and A-'s roughly tracks the number of B-'s and lower!

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Lets stop and think why this cherry picked data set may not be indicative of reality. Lets ignore, for the time being, that Set 1 (the 1L class) has a mean and median that is fairly close and just look at the numbers picked here. Free dominics to the person that can spot the largest number of hilarious logical flaws. I'll start: Classes are supposed to be curved to a bell curve. Theoretically, this means that the mean and median should be close to identical. The more data points, the higher the likelihood that these numbers are closer than they are further apart. I'll give a second: The grade distributions in classes indicate that the vast number of grades given are either a B or a B+, the middle of which, amazingly, is around a 3.2 AND the number of A's and A-'s roughly tracks the number of B-'s and lower!


We aren't talking about 1L courses where the bell curve is more prevalent. The point is that upper classes, many of which are uncurved or where profs don't adhere can have a mean way higher and still not affect the median grade dramatically.

You believe what you want. I was just trying to help out. I'm going back to studying for the bar now. But a 3.2 is not median and certainly isn't above it. Nor is a 3.4 top 1/3.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Lets stop and think why this cherry picked data set may not be indicative of reality. Lets ignore, for the time being, that Set 1 (the 1L class) has a mean and median that is fairly close and just look at the numbers picked here. Free dominics to the person that can spot the largest number of hilarious logical flaws. I'll start: Classes are supposed to be curved to a bell curve. Theoretically, this means that the mean and median should be close to identical. The more data points, the higher the likelihood that these numbers are closer than they are further apart. I'll give a second: The grade distributions in classes indicate that the vast number of grades given are either a B or a B+, the middle of which, amazingly, is around a 3.2 AND the number of A's and A-'s roughly tracks the number of B-'s and lower!


We aren't talking about 1L courses where the bell curve is more prevalent. The point is that upper classes, many of which are uncurved or where profs don't adhere can have a mean way higher and still not affect the median grade dramatically.

You believe what you want. I was just trying to help out. I'm going back to studying for the bar now.


OCI deals with 1L Median, not 3L median. Good luck with that bar studying!

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Lets stop and think why this cherry picked data set may not be indicative of reality. Lets ignore, for the time being, that Set 1 (the 1L class) has a mean and median that is fairly close and just look at the numbers picked here. Free dominics to the person that can spot the largest number of hilarious logical flaws. I'll start: Classes are supposed to be curved to a bell curve. Theoretically, this means that the mean and median should be close to identical. The more data points, the higher the likelihood that these numbers are closer than they are further apart. I'll give a second: The grade distributions in classes indicate that the vast number of grades given are either a B or a B+, the middle of which, amazingly, is around a 3.2 AND the number of A's and A-'s roughly tracks the number of B-'s and lower!


We aren't talking about 1L courses where the bell curve is more prevalent. The point is that upper classes, many of which are uncurved or where profs don't adhere can have a mean way higher and still not affect the median grade dramatically.

You believe what you want. I was just trying to help out. I'm going back to studying for the bar now.


OCI deals with 1L Median, not 3L median. Good luck with that bar studying!


Firms are provided the same data in the letter I posted earlier. They understand those numbers are high but know they aren't .2 high. They aren't taking time to calculate the 1L median beyond that. Nor does it matter all the much because they aren't evaluating offers based off the median. Almost all have a floor they can go down to without getting permission. For many, this goes below median. But that doesn't mean they give a lot of offers that low.

I helped with my firm's OCI team last OCI. Including sitting in on (and having input in) the meetings where they evaluated who to give offers. HTH.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
OCI deals with 1L Median, not 3L median. Good luck with that bar studying!


Firms are provided the same data in the letter I posted earlier. They understand those numbers are high but know they aren't .2 high. They aren't taking time to calculate the 1L median beyond that.

I helped with my firm's OCI team last OCI. Including sitting in on (and having input in) the meetings where they evaluated who to give offers. HTH.


Your one experience with one firm must clearly be indicative of all firm hiring everywhere. Glad to know that the other hiring partners from other firms who say they have taken the time to calculate the mean over the years by aggregating the data of poeple who apply and by also talking to people at peer firms must be wrong. This one letter by dean baum that is misrepresentative of the 1l grading curve, and puts a substantial percentage of michigan students going into oci at a disadvantage, is the end all be all. Gotcha.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
oblig.lawl.ref wrote:I know you have to be careful with those gpa numbers but we're not talking about cut-off/lowest gpa accepted here.

To minimize the data published here let me just tell you based on the gpa information provided to us multiple V50 firms' gpa medians are below a 3.4. Some V15 medians are roughly a 3.5. That's out of dozens of reported gpas. That means that MORE than half of the class recruited by some big name V50s (maybe even V25s) from Michigan are below what you say is median. This would mean they very regularly dip down closer to the bottom 1/3 or even 1/4 of the class. I doubt that is the case.



The employment statistics demonstrate this must be true. Lots of people below median got BigLaw offers my year. In many cases, the higher the vault rank the larger the class and the lower they must dip. So say median is 3.5...that makes your number more believable. But a 3.2 is definitely not ABOVE median.

Also, the numbers you're seeing are still 5-year numbers right? That means they still include the Class of 2009 numbers: https://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classstats/Pages/employmentstats.aspx where >50% went to firms >500 people and when they still dipped much lower.


6 year data, ya. But I feel like you're threading the needle of possibility here. Sure, it's possible that 3.4 is median. But I don't feel like all the things we have discussed make it probable. Hell, Weil has a median below 3.4 and there are also a couple years in there when firms probably wouldn't dip below something like top quarter. So I don't think 2007-2009 explains it all. OCP tells people median is closer to 3.25 or whatever. You have a letter saying at graduation 3.4 is median. Everyone knows Michigan grades get inflated on average 2l and 3l but you want us to believe that 3.4 is median for 1L. I just don't really buy it but that's cool, people can disagree.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:46 pm

I'm 3.25 and career services told me very explicitly I was above median. I don't have a ton of faith in them but I would be really surprised if they were just lying to me.

On the other hand, anecdotally, the VAST majority of people I know have numbers way higher than mine, so I find it very hard to believe that 50% of the class have numbers lower than mine.

Not sure what to think, but I agree we have the employer data and thats really all we need.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm 3.25 and career services told me very explicitly I was above median. I don't have a ton of faith in them but I would be really surprised if they were just lying to me.

On the other hand, anecdotally, the VAST majority of people I know have numbers way higher than mine, so I find it very hard to believe that 50% of the class have numbers lower than mine.

Not sure what to think, but I agree we have the employer data and thats really all we need.



I don't think your knowledge of your friends scores really means anything. I was in that civ pro class where all the grades were sent out, and a lot of the people who were at the bottom of that class hung out with each other. additionally, most of my friends tend to have gpas that aren't wildly divergant. probably just selection bias.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:05 am

Does anyone know when law review calls are going to go out? We have to upload resumes by the 11th and would reallllyyy like to know if I got on prior to submitting

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby DaftAndDirect » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:14 am

They came out around this time last year. I'm sure they're under a lot of pressure to have results out at least 24 hrs before the deadline. I wouldn't worry about it.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby blackhawkfan » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know when law review calls are going to go out? We have to upload resumes by the 11th and would reallllyyy like to know if I got on prior to submitting


OCP said updating your resume with new journals after the deadline is fine. So I wouldn't worry about it.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:57 am

Am I the only one getting absolutely shitty advice from OCP? Advice like "Bid William and Conolley in your top 10 because they are grade selective and drop some of the firms with lower GPA's to the bottom of your bid list" or "I'm not sure why you're putting Mayer Brown NYC in your top 5. You can get them in the low 20s because of their low average gpa?"

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:Am I the only one getting absolutely shitty advice from OCP? Advice like "Bid William and Conolley in your top 10 because they are grade selective and drop some of the firms with lower GPA's to the bottom of your bid list" or "I'm not sure why you're putting Mayer Brown NYC in your top 5. You can get them in the low 20s because of their low average gpa?"


Everyone except SG is useless in my opinion. One of them told me to take off my résumé the thing that all my past interviewers have highlighted and liked about my background.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Am I the only one getting absolutely shitty advice from OCP? Advice like "Bid William and Conolley in your top 10 because they are grade selective and drop some of the firms with lower GPA's to the bottom of your bid list" or "I'm not sure why you're putting Mayer Brown NYC in your top 5. You can get them in the low 20s because of their low average gpa?"


Everyone except SG is useless in my opinion. One of them told me to take off my résumé the thing that all my past interviewers have highlighted and liked about my background.



Well, she left. so.... yeah

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby hyakku » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:24 pm

What route is everyone taking regarding listing clinics on resume? I know most are litigation focused, but for the few that are transactional (ITC, Entrepeneurship, etc.) I'm wondering if it's going to be beneficial? I feel like it might help in the sense that it can show that we know what we are interested in and can point to something as evidence of preferring transactional work, but at the same time we haven't done anything.

I was thinking maybe something like, the name of the clinic (Fall 2013 or whatever the timeline is when it begins) and a one line blurb about what they do. I figure that way it's not like we're trying to trick employers into thinking we were in a clinic 1L (although I'm sure they should know we weren't), but at the same time it can demonstrate an interest in X area of law and give them one more thing to talk about.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby descartesb4thehorse » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:55 pm

hyakku wrote:What route is everyone taking regarding listing clinics on resume? I know most are litigation focused, but for the few that are transactional (ITC, Entrepeneurship, etc.) I'm wondering if it's going to be beneficial? I feel like it might help in the sense that it can show that we know what we are interested in and can point to something as evidence of preferring transactional work, but at the same time we haven't done anything.

I was thinking maybe something like, the name of the clinic (Fall 2013 or whatever the timeline is when it begins) and a one line blurb about what they do. I figure that way it's not like we're trying to trick employers into thinking we were in a clinic 1L (although I'm sure they should know we weren't), but at the same time it can demonstrate an interest in X area of law and give them one more thing to talk about.


Put it in activities maybe instead of experience. Don't even give it a bulletpoint of what you'll be doing.

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Re: Michigan 2013 OCI Thread

Postby hyakku » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:09 pm

descartesb4thehorse wrote:
hyakku wrote:What route is everyone taking regarding listing clinics on resume? I know most are litigation focused, but for the few that are transactional (ITC, Entrepeneurship, etc.) I'm wondering if it's going to be beneficial? I feel like it might help in the sense that it can show that we know what we are interested in and can point to something as evidence of preferring transactional work, but at the same time we haven't done anything.

I was thinking maybe something like, the name of the clinic (Fall 2013 or whatever the timeline is when it begins) and a one line blurb about what they do. I figure that way it's not like we're trying to trick employers into thinking we were in a clinic 1L (although I'm sure they should know we weren't), but at the same time it can demonstrate an interest in X area of law and give them one more thing to talk about.


Put it in activities maybe instead of experience. Don't even give it a bulletpoint of what you'll be doing.


Nice, appreciate it. That's what I was thinking. I'll axe the bulletpoint and let them ask about it.

Also, when people start getting LR calls, someone post so I can bask in my own failure and laziness for not applying to secondary journals.




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