does getting published help?

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swtlilsoni
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does getting published help?

Postby swtlilsoni » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:00 am

We haven't found out journal results yet but in case I don't get on one, and in case I bomb OCI in the fall, would getting published in a journal bolster my chances in getting a clerkship or job later on? I know it sounds highly optimistic but I wonder if there would still be the slightest chance for me to bring my credentials back up.

Geist13
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby Geist13 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:03 am

hasn't helped me so far.

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jump_man
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby jump_man » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:04 am

Unless you go to Yale and plan to pursue a career in academia, publishing helps just about as much as being the president hackey sack club at your law skool.

In other words, don't waste time trying to write something no one will ever read and no one will care about - go out and network!

Pokemon
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby Pokemon » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:05 am

swtlilsoni wrote:We haven't found out journal results yet but in case I don't get on one, and in case I bomb OCI in the fall, would getting published in a journal bolster my chances in getting a clerkship or job later on? I know it sounds highly optimistic but I wonder if there would still be the slightest chance for me to bring my credentials back up.


I think it might help with clerkships (though grades have to be good), but I doubt it will help with firms.

rad lulz
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:14 am

I mean it's better than not having published

And it can show a commitment to a particular practice area, which can be good

But if you do 3L job search most of the battle frankly is just being able to find employers and to get them to talk to you

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swtlilsoni
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby swtlilsoni » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:19 am

rad lulz wrote:I mean it's better than not having published

And it can show a commitment to a particular practice area, which can be good

But if you do 3L job search most of the battle frankly is just being able to find employers and to get them to talk to you


Isn't it nonsensical that employers do their hiring after 1L? The hiring should be done 3L. The 2L internship should just give people an edge if they're applying to the same firm, but they should still go through the hiring process.
Even if they want to do it this way - 2L internship being the hiring mode, they should do it at the end of 2L year (like how we applied for 1L summer during spring semester) that way, they at least have two years of grades. What is the point in doing it before 2L even started...

rad lulz
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:24 am

swtlilsoni wrote:
rad lulz wrote:I mean it's better than not having published

And it can show a commitment to a particular practice area, which can be good

But if you do 3L job search most of the battle frankly is just being able to find employers and to get them to talk to you


Isn't it nonsensical that employers do their hiring after 1L? The hiring should be done 3L. The 2L internship should just give people an edge if they're applying to the same firm, but they should still go through the hiring process.
Even if they want to do it this way - 2L internship being the hiring mode, they should do it at the end of 2L year (like how we applied for 1L summer during spring semester) that way, they at least have two years of grades. What is the point in doing it before 2L even started...

I mean yeah it sucks if you're not good at 1L but it's the game we play

Geist13
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby Geist13 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:31 am

swtlilsoni wrote:
rad lulz wrote:I mean it's better than not having published

And it can show a commitment to a particular practice area, which can be good

But if you do 3L job search most of the battle frankly is just being able to find employers and to get them to talk to you


Isn't it nonsensical that employers do their hiring after 1L? The hiring should be done 3L. The 2L internship should just give people an edge if they're applying to the same firm, but they should still go through the hiring process.
Even if they want to do it this way - 2L internship being the hiring mode, they should do it at the end of 2L year (like how we applied for 1L summer during spring semester) that way, they at least have two years of grades. What is the point in doing it before 2L even started...


a) this how it has been done for a long time; its a conservative profession, get used to it.

b) competition for top students breeds earlier and earlier hiring.

c) it allows firms to get at least a little bit of a sense if someone won't work out before offering them a six figure salary offer. Technically no offers are actually made until after the 2L SA so in a way, they are using a version of the system you proposed.

d) most private hiring DOES occur during/after 3L (at least outside of the t14).

e) employers know what a joke grades are after 1L and don't have any reason to give them weight.

f) Nothing about law school makes sense, why pick this one thing out?

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swtlilsoni
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby swtlilsoni » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:38 am

Geist13 wrote:
swtlilsoni wrote:
rad lulz wrote:I mean it's better than not having published

And it can show a commitment to a particular practice area, which can be good

But if you do 3L job search most of the battle frankly is just being able to find employers and to get them to talk to you


Isn't it nonsensical that employers do their hiring after 1L? The hiring should be done 3L. The 2L internship should just give people an edge if they're applying to the same firm, but they should still go through the hiring process.
Even if they want to do it this way - 2L internship being the hiring mode, they should do it at the end of 2L year (like how we applied for 1L summer during spring semester) that way, they at least have two years of grades. What is the point in doing it before 2L even started...


a) this how it has been done for a long time; its a conservative profession, get used to it.

b) competition for top students breeds earlier and earlier hiring.

c) it allows firms to get at least a little bit of a sense if someone won't work out before offering them a six figure salary offer. Technically no offers are actually made until after the 2L SA so in a way, they are using a version of the system you proposed.

d) most private hiring DOES occur during/after 3L (at least outside of the t14).

e) employers know what a joke grades are after 1L and don't have any reason to give them weight.

f) Nothing about law school makes sense, why pick this one thing out?


a) I am getting used to it, doesn't mean I can't wonder why
b) I don't understand why it's necessary to breed it earlier
c) okay that makes sense but then why before 2L starts rather than at the end of 2L?
d) ok well I'm talking about T14
e) the reason grades are a joke is because they use this system. if they did OCI at the end of 2L grades wouldn't be a joke 2L year because people would still be taking it seriously
f) because I'm curious

anyway I don't want to start an argument over this and hijack my own thread, I just thought someone knew the answer

rad lulz
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:38 am

Geist13 wrote:
swtlilsoni wrote:
rad lulz wrote:I mean it's better than not having published

And it can show a commitment to a particular practice area, which can be good

But if you do 3L job search most of the battle frankly is just being able to find employers and to get them to talk to you


Isn't it nonsensical that employers do their hiring after 1L? The hiring should be done 3L. The 2L internship should just give people an edge if they're applying to the same firm, but they should still go through the hiring process.
Even if they want to do it this way - 2L internship being the hiring mode, they should do it at the end of 2L year (like how we applied for 1L summer during spring semester) that way, they at least have two years of grades. What is the point in doing it before 2L even started...


a) this how it has been done for a long time; its a conservative profession, get used to it.

b) competition for top students breeds earlier and earlier hiring.

c) it allows firms to get at least a little bit of a sense if someone won't work out before offering them a six figure salary offer. Technically no offers are actually made until after the 2L SA so in a way, they are using a version of the system you proposed.

d) most private hiring DOES occur during/after 3L (at least outside of the t14).

e) employers know what a joke grades are after 1L and don't have any reason to give them weight.

f) Nothing about law school makes sense, why pick this one thing out?

pretty much

Geist13
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby Geist13 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:44 am

swtlilsoni wrote:
Geist13 wrote:
swtlilsoni wrote:
rad lulz wrote:I mean it's better than not having published

And it can show a commitment to a particular practice area, which can be good

But if you do 3L job search most of the battle frankly is just being able to find employers and to get them to talk to you


Isn't it nonsensical that employers do their hiring after 1L? The hiring should be done 3L. The 2L internship should just give people an edge if they're applying to the same firm, but they should still go through the hiring process.
Even if they want to do it this way - 2L internship being the hiring mode, they should do it at the end of 2L year (like how we applied for 1L summer during spring semester) that way, they at least have two years of grades. What is the point in doing it before 2L even started...


a) this how it has been done for a long time; its a conservative profession, get used to it.

b) competition for top students breeds earlier and earlier hiring.

c) it allows firms to get at least a little bit of a sense if someone won't work out before offering them a six figure salary offer. Technically no offers are actually made until after the 2L SA so in a way, they are using a version of the system you proposed.

d) most private hiring DOES occur during/after 3L (at least outside of the t14).

e) employers know what a joke grades are after 1L and don't have any reason to give them weight.

f) Nothing about law school makes sense, why pick this one thing out?


a) I am getting used to it, doesn't mean I can't wonder why
b) I don't understand why it's necessary to breed it earlier
c) okay that makes sense but then why before 2L starts rather than at the end of 2L?
d) ok well I'm talking about T14
e) the reason grades are a joke is because they use this system. if they did OCI at the end of 2L grades wouldn't be a joke 2L year because people would still be taking it seriously
f) because I'm curious

anyway I don't want to start an argument over this and hijack my own thread, I just thought someone knew the answer


Nothing to argue about, you're preaching to the choir (as someone who was below median after first semester and graduated magna, my god I wish they did OCI later). Those are just possible reasons why. The real reason is that's the way its done, it makes very little sense but that's just how it works.

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Chupavida
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby Chupavida » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:47 am

swtlilsoni wrote:
rad lulz wrote:I mean it's better than not having published

And it can show a commitment to a particular practice area, which can be good

But if you do 3L job search most of the battle frankly is just being able to find employers and to get them to talk to you


Isn't it nonsensical that employers do their hiring after 1L? The hiring should be done 3L. The 2L internship should just give people an edge if they're applying to the same firm, but they should still go through the hiring process.
Even if they want to do it this way - 2L internship being the hiring mode, they should do it at the end of 2L year (like how we applied for 1L summer during spring semester) that way, they at least have two years of grades. What is the point in doing it before 2L even started...

Because it's a relatively efficient sorting mechanism for characteristics that big law firms want in associates. 1L grades sort students into nice stacks within schools, which firms can line up next to stacks from other schools and come up with hiring preferences and presumptions that are fairly consistent over time. 2L and 3L classes/experiences introduce variability that, though it might offer information you think should be more important, would likely make the hiring process slower, more costly, and less predictable.

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kalvano
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby kalvano » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:21 am

swtlilsoni wrote:We haven't found out journal results yet but in case I don't get on one, and in case I bomb OCI in the fall, would getting published in a journal bolster my chances in getting a clerkship or job later on? I know it sounds highly optimistic but I wonder if there would still be the slightest chance for me to bring my credentials back up.


I don't think being published alone will help. But if you get on a journal plus get published, it's a definite boost.

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Cavalier
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby Cavalier » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:42 am

It only matters if your note has been cited at least a dozen times. Employers will go to Hein and check.

Saint_Seer
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby Saint_Seer » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:32 am

Geist13 wrote:
swtlilsoni wrote:
rad lulz wrote:e) employers know what a joke grades are after 1L and don't have any reason to give them weight.


I'd like to hear more about the "joke" part of this sentence

lolwat
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby lolwat » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:29 am

does getting published help?


Can only help, but does not always help.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:50 am

The thing is, law school grades are a fairly arbitrary measure for hiring anyway - sure, good grades usually correlate with some degree of intelligence, which is a good quality in an employee, but law school grades don't generally measure a lot of things that are important for success as a lawyer (time management skills, business savvy, ability to talk to clients, ability to negotiate effectively with opposing counsel, etc.). So why is looking at 1L grades any more arbitrary than looking at any other year of grades? 1L is the only year where students' course schedules are pretty comparable, and you can argue that doing well during 1L = ability to learn/adjust to new settings quickly (i.e. you figured out how to write a law school exam better/more quickly than many of your classmates), which would be a valuable quality in a new hire.

I mean, mostly it's done this way because it's always been done this way. It's pretty dumb (which is why employers other than biglaw don't hire on this system), but it's not entirely divorced from reality.

As to the original question: getting published in a LR is a valuable credential for clerking. It will never hurt you, but it's not likely to be valuable for much else (in part because employers don't care if you're on LR because they want brilliant legal scholars, they like LR because it means you have good grades, decent writing skills, but most importantly because it shows you are willing to spend a lot of time grinding through tedious piles of work in which you have no personal interest, and can be focused and detail-oriented while doing so. So publishing doesn't really serve as a proxy for the skills that LR is a proxy for).

Publishing in practitioners' publications (local bar rag, that kind of thing) would be more helpful for general networking in your practice area/location, though.

Myself
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.

Postby Myself » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:53 am

.
Last edited by Myself on Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Agent
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby Agent » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:40 am

+1

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Publishing in practitioners' publications (local bar rag, that kind of thing) would be more helpful for general networking in your practice area/location, though.

hiima3L
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Re: does getting published help?

Postby hiima3L » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:09 am

rad lulz wrote:I mean it's better than not having published

And it can show a commitment to a particular practice area, which can be good

But if you do 3L job search most of the battle frankly is just being able to find employers and to get them to talk to you


This is credited.

I published a paper on (surprise) a very esoteric issue and got in touch with a guy who is huge in the field. TL;DR he's become a very good connection to have and the potential of working for him down the line is very possible. Of course, he's probably one of five people who would care about my paper, but I've come to learn that that kind of genuine mutual interest in a very small niche field can be hugely important.

I don't think a paper is going to get you a job (or really help for 99% of applications), but it's always a solid talking point and way to introduce yourself to people.




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