HLS EIP 2013 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Bidding almost exclusively Chicago. Very strong regional ties. 3 H's. K-JD, prestigious-ish undergrad (still get a lot of crap for it at HLS). Non-URM.

Does anyone have any advice as to Chicago firms? Or more specifically, any advice/experience with Kirkland, Sidley, Jenner? Any idea what cutoffs might look like?

And if anyone has an idea what political culture might look like at Chicago firms generally? I know Jenner is liberal, but was wondering what the other firms might look like politically.

Rising 3L here. I was similar to you and got callbacks to those firms and ended up in Chicago. Bid anywhere you would work, and see what happens. Wouldn't worry about your undergrad - and if you went somewhere close to Chicago (i.e. Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, Northwestern, UofC), that can only help. I doubt there are hard cutoffs, as very few HLS students end up in Chicago - more so, have a good reason to come to Chicago, and you'll be fine. Be personable, do your research ahead of time as to specialities (but really, they all do everything, especially Kirkland and Sidley). I was also wondering about where I would fit in politically - but really, this is something to explore more after getting callbacks and/or offers and deciding. There are lots of Obama people floating around because of his Chicago ties, including at other places like Skadden.

Anon who you're responding to here.

Thanks on the advice on the undergrad. I did go to one of the schools you listed. When you say, explore more after getting callbacks/offers, what are things you would recommend looking for?

And to the poster who asked if I actually got crapped on for my undergrad -- yes, it's happened. The most memorable instances were from Ivy League alumni.

Sorry for the delayed response, rising 3L in Chicago back here. By "explore more," I mean talk to attorneys at the firms you are considering, ask to talk to people who are involved in the political scene, or ask current HLS students or recent alums. It's hard to really nail down before getting an offer, because at that point you want to have a few choices rather than shut yourself out by asking too many of those types of questions (it's like OCS advises not to ask certain questions until after you get the offer...I just don't think this would be helpful for you to try and get a job; there aren't that many Chicago firms that come, so if you really want Chicago and no where else, just bid mostly/exclusively there anyway and you will still have room for more).

[Mista Bojangles]

is there an expert on california firms here?

can you suggest some firms to look into? if you could distinguish between lit and corp firms, that would be great.

4H's, 6P's, urm, w/e.

Did you look at the 'Ask the Experts: 2013 Regional Guides" page on OCS' website? I thought the pdf document under NoCal and SoCal sections were helpful.

And if you did look at the page, did you speak with the NoCal and/or SoCal legal recuiters ? I think you should probably start there.

if any HLS student would be willing to share these "Ask the Experts" guides with me, plz PM me. in return I'll answer any questions you have / given any advice I might be able to...

They are behind a password wall and not meant to be shared, even if you ask nicely or offer advice in exchange.

[Anonymous User]

So I've been trying to figure out which truly are the "less grade selective firms" in NY after talking to OCS and meticulously reading most of the TLS threads even remotely talking about less selective firms (1 H, 9P's) and I think I've found some, but if anyone could pitch in with ones I'm missing or ones here that aren't actually less selective that would be great! So far I have

Dechert, Kramer Levin, Hunton and Williams, DLA Piper, Willkie Farr, Hughes Hubbard, Pillsbury, Chadbourne and Parke, Winston and Strawn

Am I missing any? or hugely misinformed about these? Interested in transactional work.

[Anonymous User]

So I've been trying to figure out which truly are the "less grade selective firms" in NY after talking to OCS and meticulously reading most of the TLS threads even remotely talking about less selective firms (1 H, 9P's) and I think I've found some, but if anyone could pitch in with ones I'm missing or ones here that aren't actually less selective that would be great! So far I have

Dechert, Kramer Levin, Hunton and Williams, DLA Piper, Willkie Farr, Hughes Hubbard, Pillsbury, Chadbourne and Parke, Winston and Strawn

Am I missing any? or hugely misinformed about these? Interested in transactional work.

Shearman Sterling and White & Case are both considered "less grade selective".

The New York outposts of the Magic Circle firms are also considered "less selective".

You're also missing firms like Fried Frank, Cahill Gordon, Kaye Scholar, Patterson Belknap.

But even with 1H, I would not bid more than 1/3 "safeties". You still have a shot at better firms, depending on interviews/WE, etc.

[Anonymous User]

So I've been trying to figure out which truly are the "less grade selective firms" in NY after talking to OCS and meticulously reading most of the TLS threads even remotely talking about less selective firms (1 H, 9P's) and I think I've found some, but if anyone could pitch in with ones I'm missing or ones here that aren't actually less selective that would be great! So far I have

Dechert, Kramer Levin, Hunton and Williams, DLA Piper, Willkie Farr, Hughes Hubbard, Pillsbury, Chadbourne and Parke, Winston and Strawn

Am I missing any? or hugely misinformed about these? Interested in transactional work.

Shearman Sterling and White & Case are both considered "less grade selective".

The New York outposts of the Magic Circle firms are also considered "less selective".

You're also missing firms like Fried Frank, Cahill Gordon, Kaye Scholar, Patterson Belknap.

But even with 1H, I would not bid more than 1/3 "safeties". You still have a shot at better firms, depending on interviews/WE, etc.

+1

But I will add that I think there are 3 (possibly even more) tiers of selectivity.

Highly selective - Cravath, S&C, Williams & Connelly, WLRK, MTO etc
Moderately selective - Skadden, Weil, Shearman, White & Case etc
Less Selective - Fried Frank, Cahill etc..


Fortunately there are not that many highly selective firms (I think there might be at most 7-10). HLS Students tend to be spread all over the place.

Another resource that rising 2Ls forget are the rising 3Ls. Reach out to any friends you have in that class or send an email to people working in firms you are interested in. Rising 2ls (or at least the people I spoke with) seem very eager to help.

[Anonymous User]

So I've been trying to figure out which truly are the "less grade selective firms" in NY after talking to OCS and meticulously reading most of the TLS threads even remotely talking about less selective firms (1 H, 9P's) and I think I've found some, but if anyone could pitch in with ones I'm missing or ones here that aren't actually less selective that would be great! So far I have

Dechert, Kramer Levin, Hunton and Williams, DLA Piper, Willkie Farr, Hughes Hubbard, Pillsbury, Chadbourne and Parke, Winston and Strawn

Am I missing any? or hugely misinformed about these? Interested in transactional work.

Shearman Sterling and White & Case are both considered "less grade selective".

The New York outposts of the Magic Circle firms are also considered "less selective".

You're also missing firms like Fried Frank, Cahill Gordon, Kaye Scholar, Patterson Belknap.

But even with 1H, I would not bid more than 1/3 "safeties". You still have a shot at better firms, depending on interviews/WE, etc.

+1

But I will add that I think there are 3 (possibly even more) tiers of selectivity.

Highly selective - Cravath, S&C, Williams & Connelly, WLRK, MTO etc
Moderately selective - Skadden, Weil, Shearman, White & Case etc
Less Selective - Fried Frank, Cahill etc..


Fortunately there are not that many highly selective firms (I think there might be at most 7-10). HLS Students tend to be spread all over the place.

Another resource that rising 2Ls forget are the rising 3Ls. Reach out to any friends you have in that class or send an email to people working in firms you are interested in. Rising 2ls (or at least the people I spoke with) seem very eager to help.

Thanks! This makes me feel a lot better about my list then, I think I have a good number of those safeties on my list, so with my background, WE and good interviewing skills (so I've been told) I should hopefully be ok. As for contacting rising 3L's I'm not sure how much help that would be at this point. I've talked to a few of those friends about their experiences at their firms and I'm getting a sense of where I would like to work and where I wouldn't so thats been super helpful! But I am nowhere near the point of crossing off firms considering I havent gotten any offers haha.

[Anonymous User]

1H, urm, no real w/e (straight through), but a strong interviewer (I think), interested in internationally oriented firms. Are firms like Freshfields and Allen & Overy reaches/matches or safeties... I really have no idea what I'm doing here, and OCS has been giving me some inconsistent information regarding this. I have no idea, and I don't want to mess up and be too conservative or too bold.

[Anonymous User]

1H, urm, no real w/e (straight through), but a strong interviewer (I think), interested in internationally oriented firms. Are firms like Freshfields and Allen & Overy reaches/matches or safeties... I really have no idea what I'm doing here, and OCS has been giving me some inconsistent information regarding this. I have no idea, and I don't want to mess up and be too conservative or too bold.

I think you should look through TLS for more information about Magic Circle Firms that recruit at US law schools (Freshfields, Allen & Overy, Linklaters & clifford chance). It appears they are less grade selective but they like people with some international flair. So its very possible to get them with 1H (they are targets not reaches depending on your resume and life story). But just being interested in international firms is not going to cut it. Because many US firms are internationally oriented. What inconsistent information are you getting?

[Anonymous User]

1H, urm, no real w/e (straight through), but a strong interviewer (I think), interested in internationally oriented firms. Are firms like Freshfields and Allen & Overy reaches/matches or safeties... I really have no idea what I'm doing here, and OCS has been giving me some inconsistent information regarding this. I have no idea, and I don't want to mess up and be too conservative or too bold.

I think you should look through TLS for more information about Magic Circle Firms that recruit at US law schools (Freshfields, Allen & Overy, Linklaters & Clifford Chance). It appears they are less grade selective but they like people with some international flair. So its very possible to get them with 1H (they are targets not reaches depending on your resume and life story). But just being interested in international firms is not going to cut it. Because many US firms are internationally oriented. What inconsistent information are you getting?

OP here. Not really inconsistent, per se, but confusing. My OCS advisor told me DLA Piper and Baker McKenzie are "safeties" for me, but then told me that with my grades in NYC firms in the 40-50 range will be matches. I realize magic circle is less prestigious in the US, but they have great international focus, and I'd love to take opportunities to practice abroad. Without being over specific, I've spent a significant amount of time displaying interest in international work (travel, living/working abroad) and though my extra curricular activities during 1L and in UG.

That aside, I'm just at a total loss for how to process all of the information from vault, from TLS, from chambers, from OCS and balance my grades with my interests with firm selectivity and quality of life. It's quite overwhelming. I realize I shit the bed a bit with my grade situation, but I also feel like I'm getting inconsistent info about just HOW fucked I am. And clearly I'm a crazy person who gets stressed out and goes to TLS which will inevitably only increase my stress. (sorry that was a crazy rant)

[Mista Bojangles]

1H, urm, no real w/e (straight through), but a strong interviewer (I think), interested in internationally oriented firms. Are firms like Freshfields and Allen & Overy reaches/matches or safeties... I really have no idea what I'm doing here, and OCS has been giving me some inconsistent information regarding this. I have no idea, and I don't want to mess up and be too conservative or too bold.

I think you should look through TLS for more information about Magic Circle Firms that recruit at US law schools (Freshfields, Allen & Overy, Linklaters & Clifford Chance). It appears they are less grade selective but they like people with some international flair. So its very possible to get them with 1H (they are targets not reaches depending on your resume and life story). But just being interested in international firms is not going to cut it. Because many US firms are internationally oriented. What inconsistent information are you getting?

OP here. Not really inconsistent, per se, but confusing. My OCS advisor told me DLA Piper and Baker McKenzie are "safeties" for me, but then told me that with my grades in NYC firms in the 40-50 range will be matches. I realize magic circle is less prestigious in the US, but they have great international focus, and I'd love to take opportunities to practice abroad. Without being over specific, I've spent a significant amount of time displaying interest in international work (travel, living/working abroad) and though my extra curricular activities during 1L and in UG.

That aside, I'm just at a total loss for how to process all of the information from vault, from TLS, from chambers, from OCS and balance my grades with my interests with firm selectivity and quality of life. It's quite overwhelming. I realize I shit the bed a bit with my grade situation, but I also feel like I'm getting inconsistent info about just HOW fucked I am. And clearly I'm a crazy person who gets stressed out and goes to TLS which will inevitably only increase my stress. (sorry that was a crazy rant)

1H/9P doth not a shat bed make

[Anonymous User]

1H, urm, no real w/e (straight through), but a strong interviewer (I think), interested in internationally oriented firms. Are firms like Freshfields and Allen & Overy reaches/matches or safeties... I really have no idea what I'm doing here, and OCS has been giving me some inconsistent information regarding this. I have no idea, and I don't want to mess up and be too conservative or too bold.

I think you should look through TLS for more information about Magic Circle Firms that recruit at US law schools (Freshfields, Allen & Overy, Linklaters & Clifford Chance). It appears they are less grade selective but they like people with some international flair. So its very possible to get them with 1H (they are targets not reaches depending on your resume and life story). But just being interested in international firms is not going to cut it. Because many US firms are internationally oriented. What inconsistent information are you getting?

OP here. Not really inconsistent, per se, but confusing. My OCS advisor told me DLA Piper and Baker McKenzie are "safeties" for me, but then told me that with my grades in NYC firms in the 40-50 range will be matches. I realize magic circle is less prestigious in the US, but they have great international focus, and I'd love to take opportunities to practice abroad. Without being over specific, I've spent a significant amount of time displaying interest in international work (travel, living/working abroad) and though my extra curricular activities during 1L and in UG.

That aside, I'm just at a total loss for how to process all of the information from vault, from TLS, from chambers, from OCS and balance my grades with my interests with firm selectivity and quality of life. It's quite overwhelming. I realize I shit the bed a bit with my grade situation, but I also feel like I'm getting inconsistent info about just HOW fucked I am. And clearly I'm a crazy person who gets stressed out and goes to TLS which will inevitably only increase my stress. (sorry that was a crazy rant)

I am not sure if by “matches” he/she meant targets or safeties. But even if he/she meant targets then the magic circle firms will be reaches not wasted bids (they are in the v25 -50 range). Freshfields is actually ranked 43rd so its one of your "matches" so you should not be as worried as you do. Remember that the vault rankings are not a perfect indication of selectivity. Use them as a guide. Also stop feeling bad about your grades....you cannot change that now so focus on doing the best at EIP with what you have. Be confident with what you have/who you are whether its 10Hs, 1H or some LPs. Many people have a lot to offer other than grades. Make sure to highlight your international work during the magic circle screeners…they love that.

[Anonymous User]

1H, urm, no real w/e (straight through), but a strong interviewer (I think), interested in internationally oriented firms. Are firms like Freshfields and Allen & Overy reaches/matches or safeties... I really have no idea what I'm doing here, and OCS has been giving me some inconsistent information regarding this. I have no idea, and I don't want to mess up and be too conservative or too bold.

I think you should look through TLS for more information about Magic Circle Firms that recruit at US law schools (Freshfields, Allen & Overy, Linklaters & Clifford Chance). It appears they are less grade selective but they like people with some international flair. So its very possible to get them with 1H (they are targets not reaches depending on your resume and life story). But just being interested in international firms is not going to cut it. Because many US firms are internationally oriented. What inconsistent information are you getting?

OP here. Not really inconsistent, per se, but confusing. My OCS advisor told me DLA Piper and Baker McKenzie are "safeties" for me, but then told me that with my grades in NYC firms in the 40-50 range will be matches. I realize magic circle is less prestigious in the US, but they have great international focus, and I'd love to take opportunities to practice abroad. Without being over specific, I've spent a significant amount of time displaying interest in international work (travel, living/working abroad) and though my extra curricular activities during 1L and in UG.

That aside, I'm just at a total loss for how to process all of the information from vault, from TLS, from chambers, from OCS and balance my grades with my interests with firm selectivity and quality of life. It's quite overwhelming. I realize I shit the bed a bit with my grade situation, but I also feel like I'm getting inconsistent info about just HOW fucked I am. And clearly I'm a crazy person who gets stressed out and goes to TLS which will inevitably only increase my stress. (sorry that was a crazy rant)

I am not sure if by “matches” he/she meant targets or safeties. But even if he/she meant targets then the magic circle firms will be reaches not wasted bids (they are in the v25 -50 range). Freshfields is actually ranked 43rd so its one of your "matches" so you should not be as worried as you do. Remember that the vault rankings are not a perfect indication of selectivity. Use them as a guide. Also stop feeling bad about your grades....you cannot change that now so focus on doing the best at EIP with what you have. Be confident with what you have/who you are whether its 10Hs, 1H or some LPs. Many people have a lot to offer other than grades. Make sure to highlight your international work during the magic circle screeners…they love that.

That was actually so nice/exactly the pep talk I needed. Thank you, stranger!

[Anonymous User]

I have 1H/9P. I'm interested in corporate or bankruptcy work, and I'm only bidding in NYC. I have no pre-law school work experience, but I've done some M&A work during my internship this summer. What do you guys think of this list? Thanks!

1. Allen & Overy
2. Dechert
3. Shearman & Sterling
4. Freshfields
5. Cadwalader
6. Cahill Gordon
7. Paul Hastings
8. Linklaters
9. Proskauer Rose
10. Sidley Austin
11. Fried Frank
12. Schulte Roth
13. Milbank Tweed
14. White & Case
15. Baker & McKenzie
16. Kramer Levin
17. Brown Rudnick
18. Willkie Farr
19. Weil Gotshal
20. Chadbourne & Parke
21. Freshfields
22. Latham Watkins
23. Skadden
24. Kirkland Ellis
25. Pillsbury Winthrop
26. hogan lovells
27. Winston
28. Paul Weiss
29. Davis Polk
30. Debevoise
31. Cleary
32. Hughes Hubbard
33. Simpson Thacher
34. clifford chance
35. Jones Day

[Anonymous User]

I have 1H/9P. I'm interested in corporate or bankruptcy work, and I'm only bidding in NYC. I have no pre-law school work experience, but I've done some M&A work during my internship this summer. What do you guys think of this list? Thanks!

1. Allen & Overy
2. Dechert
3. Shearman & Sterling
4. Freshfields
5. Cadwalader
6. Cahill Gordon
7. Paul Hastings
8. Linklaters
9. Proskauer Rose
10. Sidley Austin
11. Fried Frank
12. Schulte Roth
13. Milbank Tweed
14. White & Case
15. Baker & McKenzie
16. Kramer Levin
17. Brown Rudnick
18. Willkie Farr
19. Weil Gotshal
20. Chadbourne & Parke
21. Freshfields
22. Latham Watkins
23. Skadden
24. Kirkland Ellis
25. Pillsbury Winthrop
26. Hogan Lovells
27. Winston
28. Paul Weiss
29. Davis Polk
30. Debevoise
31. Cleary
32. Hughes Hubbard
33. Simpson Thacher
34. Clifford Chance
35. Jones Day

I think this is a good mix of firms. The firms in red are those that you will not get in their current positions. So if you want them they have to move up. And if you do not care about them then it may be wise to put other firms on your list. Freshfields appears twice (#4 and #21).

Also I think Cadwalader and Dechert can move down the list (unless they are you top choices then they can stay where they are). Simpson, Willkie and Davis can move down.

I think you should move up at least 1 selective firm to your top 15 (Skadden/Weil/Latham). I know you want to maximize your interviews and be risk averse but I think you should make sure that you at least secure one of them...you never know. Good Luck!

[Anonymous User]

...
Deleted (Double Post)

[JamMasterJ]

I have 1H/9P. I'm interested in corporate or bankruptcy work, and I'm only bidding in NYC. I have no pre-law school work experience, but I've done some M&A work during my internship this summer. What do you guys think of this list? Thanks!

1. Allen & Overy
2. Dechert
3. Shearman & Sterling
4. Freshfields
5. Cadwalader
6. Cahill Gordon
7. Paul Hastings
8. Linklaters
9. Proskauer Rose
10. Sidley Austin
11. Fried Frank
12. Schulte Roth
13. Milbank Tweed
14. White & Case
15. Baker & McKenzie
16. Kramer Levin
17. Brown Rudnick
18. Willkie Farr
19. Weil Gotshal
20. Chadbourne & Parke
21. Freshfields
22. Latham Watkins
23. Skadden
24. Kirkland Ellis
25. Pillsbury Winthrop
26. Hogan Lovells
27. Winston
28. Paul Weiss
29. Davis Polk
30. Debevoise
31. Cleary
32. Hughes Hubbard
33. Simpson Thacher
34. Clifford Chance
35. Jones Day

Not at H, so I can't speak to the ordering, but this seems like a pretty solid mix of firms. I'd echo that Dechert at 2 is probably unnecessary. I'd maybe move Weil and Kramer Levin up b/c bankruptcy, and consider adding Akin

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

1. Akin Gump DC
2. Debevoise DC
3. Wilmerhale DC
4. Skadden NYC
5. Mayer Brown DC
6. Hogan Lovells DC
7. Latham and Watkins DC
8. Crowell and Moring DC
9. Jones Day DC
10. Milbank, NYC
11. Bingham NYC
12. McDermott DC
13. Skadden DC
14. Sullivan and Cromwell DC
15. Cravath NYC
16. Morgan Lewis Bockius DC
17. Proskauer Rose NYC
18. Debevoise NYC
19. Cadwalader DC
20. Willkie Farr DC
21. Kaye Scholer NYC
22. Cleary Gottlieb NYC
23. Jenner Block DC
24. Paul Weiss DC
25. Bingham McCutchen DC
26. Shearman and Sterling DC
27. O’Melveny DC
28. Cleary, Gottlieb DC
29. Ropes and Gray DC/NYC
30. Fried Frank NYC
31. Stroock and Stroock NYC
32. Fried Frank DC
33. Davis Polk NYC
34. Simpson Thacher NYC
35. Paul Weiss NYC

I think with your grades this is a good mix of DC and NYC firms especially if you want to be in DC. I do not know much about the DC firms but your NYC firms look good. The only one that I am worried about is Debevoise, it might be a little low. But apart from that, your NYC list is good.

[Anonymous User]

FYI: BSA ding email received. Presumably dings and acceptances today/this week.
HLR likely end of this week or early next.

[pupshaw]

HLR likely end of this week or early next.

Basis for this? Is that just the typical timeline vis a vis BSA dings?

[Anonymous User]

HLR likely end of this week or early next.

Basis for this? Is that just the typical timeline vis a vis BSA dings?

Just historical data and extrapolation, looking at least years' threads. HLR has been 7/16/2012, 7/18/2011, 7/19/2010 (All are Mondays). BSA usually about 5-7 days before.

So, 7/15/13 seems a reasonable guess.

[094320]

..

[heavy]

Hey Everyone,

Hope you will forgive a quick question from someone behind in the EIP process, but how do we go about contacting a city-specific recruiter? I am hoping to bid mostly DC, and have a tentative list, but saw that others had spoken with someone about it. Is it through OCS?

Thanks for the help, and best of luck to everyone

[Anonymous User]

HLR likely end of this week or early next.

Basis for this? Is that just the typical timeline vis a vis BSA dings?

I had a friend on law review tell me a few weeks ago to expect results to go out 7/15.

Awesome. My anxiety level just skyrocketed.

(It's hopeless anyway)

[094320]

..