HLS EIP 2013

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Anonymous User
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Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think the ratio of NY to DC firms on your list should be greater than what it is now. NY is an easier market to crack, and although straight Ps are not bad at all, it would be harder in DC because you will be competing with classmates that have better grades, in a smaller legal market. Do you have any ties to DC? What did the recuiters say?


I find this statement interesting - I received mainly P's, and am feeling extremely unconfident about bidding at selective firms. Is the consensus that even if you have straight/mainly P's you still have a decent shot at highly selective firms (given you have additional positives i.e. W/E, ties to the area, great interviewer)? Most of the posts on this website are so doom and gloom about grades.

Anonymous User
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Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think the ratio of NY to DC firms on your list should be greater than what it is now. NY is an easier market to crack, and although straight Ps are not bad at all, it would be harder in DC because you will be competing with classmates that have better grades, in a smaller legal market. Do you have any ties to DC? What did the recuiters say?


I find this statement interesting - I received mainly P's, and am feeling extremely unconfident about bidding at selective firms. Is the consensus that even if you have straight/mainly P's you still have a decent shot at highly selective firms (given you have additional positives i.e. W/E, ties to the area, great interviewer)? Most of the posts on this website are so doom and gloom about grades.


Lets not forget that mostly rising 2ls post in this thread and and no one here has a solid grasp of how firms select candidates. Yes grades are important but as many people have said they are not the only thing that most firms consider. There is a reason why OCS says you can add some very selective firms regardless of your grades. Every year some people with straight Ps work in selective firms. Granted it may also depends on their resume (W/E) and interview skills. People in this thread seem a lot more pessimistic than OCS and the legal recruiters.

itbdvorm
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:09 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby itbdvorm » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think the ratio of NY to DC firms on your list should be greater than what it is now. NY is an easier market to crack, and although straight Ps are not bad at all, it would be harder in DC because you will be competing with classmates that have better grades, in a smaller legal market. Do you have any ties to DC? What did the recuiters say?


I find this statement interesting - I received mainly P's, and am feeling extremely unconfident about bidding at selective firms. Is the consensus that even if you have straight/mainly P's you still have a decent shot at highly selective firms (given you have additional positives i.e. W/E, ties to the area, great interviewer)? Most of the posts on this website are so doom and gloom about grades.


Lets not forget that mostly rising 2ls post in this thread and and no one here has a solid grasp of how firms select candidates. Yes grades are important but as many people have said they are not the only thing that most firms consider. There is a reason why OCS says you can add some very selective firms regardless of your grades. Every year some people with straight Ps work in selective firms. Granted it may also depends on their resume (W/E) and interview skills. People in this thread seem a lot more pessimistic than OCS and the legal recruiters.


FWIW - actual biglaw associate and former hiring committee member here. I don't think Harvard had changed grading systems yet but when I was on the committee you could not get hired by us w/all Ps at Yale. Gotta assume it's, at the worst, comparable at Harvard. Not to say there aren't other firms that maybe would hire you, but there are plenty of firms that would rather take #1 at Seton Hall than straight Ps at Harvard. Just be realistic.

Anonymous User
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Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:34 pm

itbdvorm wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think the ratio of NY to DC firms on your list should be greater than what it is now. NY is an easier market to crack, and although straight Ps are not bad at all, it would be harder in DC because you will be competing with classmates that have better grades, in a smaller legal market. Do you have any ties to DC? What did the recuiters say?


I find this statement interesting - I received mainly P's, and am feeling extremely unconfident about bidding at selective firms. Is the consensus that even if you have straight/mainly P's you still have a decent shot at highly selective firms (given you have additional positives i.e. W/E, ties to the area, great interviewer)? Most of the posts on this website are so doom and gloom about grades.


Lets not forget that mostly rising 2ls post in this thread and and no one here has a solid grasp of how firms select candidates. Yes grades are important but as many people have said they are not the only thing that most firms consider. There is a reason why OCS says you can add some very selective firms regardless of your grades. Every year some people with straight Ps work in selective firms. Granted it may also depends on their resume (W/E) and interview skills. People in this thread seem a lot more pessimistic than OCS and the legal recruiters.


FWIW - actual biglaw associate and former hiring committee member here. I don't think Harvard had changed grading systems yet but when I was on the committee you could not get hired by us w/all Ps at Yale. Gotta assume it's, at the worst, comparable at Harvard. Not to say there aren't other firms that maybe would hire you, but there are plenty of firms that would rather take #1 at Seton Hall than straight Ps at Harvard. Just be realistic.


It's firm by firm, so put some very selective firms on your bidlist. (Current HLS SA at a selective firm).

Anonymous User
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Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:36 am

I had 1H and 1DS (elective) and ended up at a V5 for this summer. Had several comparable offers as well. A little WE, solid interviewer. Don't be afraid to aim high, just know the difference between an uphill battle and a brick wall (due to overt grade focus at certain firms like WLRK, S&C, elite lit boutiques, etc.) and use those reach bids strategically. The vault correlation is weak at best, particularly at HLS.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:42 am

Hi everyone,
Would appreciate any comments on my NYC bidlist.
K-JD. 5 Hs, 1 DS, 4 Ps - For whatever it's worth, my Spring semester was much stronger than my Fall semester.

My current plan is to bid NY exclusively. Interested in M&A, and also have an interest in bankruptcy, so if a firm has robust practices in both, that's a plus for me. Also have heard that tax practice is interesting, so that's another factor.

1. Cravath
2. Sullivan & Cromwell
3. Debevoise
4. Simpson
5. Wachtell
6. Kirkland
7. Skadden
8. Davis Polk
9. Cleary
10. Gibson Dunn
11. Weil
12. Paul Weiss
13. Willkie
14. Fried Frank
15. Milbank
16. Latham
17. Proskauer
18. Kramer Levin
19. Covington
20. Cahill
21. Jones Day
22. Dechert
23. Hughes Hubbard
24. Cadwalader
25. Shearman
26. Bingham

A couple of concerns on my end. Would really appreciate any feedback:
First, from my research I think I'd prefer to work at Cleary/DPW over Skadden or Kirkland, but I've tried to structure my list to account for the number of bids that historically translate into interviews. Do you all think I am safe keeping Cleary/DPW at 8/9, or should I bump them up ahead of Skadden and Kirkland so as to lock them up?

Also, I feel as if there are too many firms on my list. I'd kind of prefer to really focus in on 15-18 interviews. Thoughts on this? Too risky, given the economy?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273477
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hi everyone,
Would appreciate any comments on my NYC bidlist.
K-JD. 5 Hs, 1 DS, 4 Ps - For whatever it's worth, my Spring semester was much stronger than my Fall semester.

My current plan is to bid NY exclusively. Interested in M&A, and also have an interest in bankruptcy, so if a firm has robust practices in both, that's a plus for me. Also have heard that tax practice is interesting, so that's another factor.

1. Cravath
2. Sullivan & Cromwell
3. Debevoise
4. Simpson
5. Wachtell
6. Kirkland
7. Skadden
8. Davis Polk
9. Cleary
10. Gibson Dunn
11. Weil
12. Paul Weiss
13. Willkie
14. Fried Frank
15. Milbank
16. Latham
17. Proskauer
18. Kramer Levin
19. Covington
20. Cahill
21. Jones Day
22. Dechert
23. Hughes Hubbard
24. Cadwalader
25. Shearman
26. Bingham

A couple of concerns on my end. Would really appreciate any feedback:
First, from my research I think I'd prefer to work at Cleary/DPW over Skadden or Kirkland, but I've tried to structure my list to account for the number of bids that historically translate into interviews. Do you all think I am safe keeping Cleary/DPW at 8/9, or should I bump them up ahead of Skadden and Kirkland so as to lock them up?

Also, I feel as if there are too many firms on my list. I'd kind of prefer to really focus in on 15-18 interviews. Thoughts on this? Too risky, given the economy?


Congrats on a better 2nd semester!

1) I looked at the EIP stats from 2012 and 2011 and I think everyone that bid on DPW got it. They have 220 slots available and I think the most bids the may have gotten in the past 2 years was 219 or 216. You can definitely move it down.

2) Not too sure about Cleary, I would say keep it in you top 10, although most people end up getting a slot, its one of the places that HLS Students like/overbid.

3) Paul Weiss and Simpson can definitely move down your list. 100% of people that bid on them got them last year and the year before.

4) If you care about Jones Day, it should probably be in your top 10

5) Wachtell does not need to be so high on the list, they are usually underbid (and we all know why) so you can move them down (at least lower than Cleary).

I would suggest that your top 6 look like this
1. Cravath/Kirkland
2. Sullivan & Cromwell
3. Debevoise/Skadden
4. Skadden/Debevoise
5. Kikland /Cravath
6. Cleary

Anonymous User
Posts: 273477
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi everyone,
Would appreciate any comments on my NYC bidlist.
K-JD. 5 Hs, 1 DS, 4 Ps - For whatever it's worth, my Spring semester was much stronger than my Fall semester.

My current plan is to bid NY exclusively. Interested in M&A, and also have an interest in bankruptcy, so if a firm has robust practices in both, that's a plus for me. Also have heard that tax practice is interesting, so that's another factor.

1. Cravath
2. Sullivan & Cromwell
3. Debevoise
4. Simpson
5. Wachtell
6. Kirkland
7. Skadden
8. Davis Polk
9. Cleary
10. Gibson Dunn
11. Weil
12. Paul Weiss
13. Willkie
14. Fried Frank
15. Milbank
16. Latham
17. Proskauer
18. Kramer Levin
19. Covington
20. Cahill
21. Jones Day
22. Dechert
23. Hughes Hubbard
24. Cadwalader
25. Shearman
26. Bingham

A couple of concerns on my end. Would really appreciate any feedback:
First, from my research I think I'd prefer to work at Cleary/DPW over Skadden or Kirkland, but I've tried to structure my list to account for the number of bids that historically translate into interviews. Do you all think I am safe keeping Cleary/DPW at 8/9, or should I bump them up ahead of Skadden and Kirkland so as to lock them up?

Also, I feel as if there are too many firms on my list. I'd kind of prefer to really focus in on 15-18 interviews. Thoughts on this? Too risky, given the economy?


Congrats on a better 2nd semester!

1) I looked at the EIP stats from 2012 and 2011 and I think everyone that bid on DPW got it. They have 220 slots available and I think the most bids the may have gotten in the past 2 years was 219 or 216. You can definitely move it down.

2) Not too sure about Cleary, I would say keep it in you top 10, although most people end up getting a slot, its one of the places that HLS Students like/overbid.

3) Paul Weiss and Simpson can definitely move down your list. 100% of people that bid on them got them last year and the year before.

4) If you care about Jones Day, it should probably be in your top 10

5) Wachtell does not need to be so high on the list, they are usually underbid (and we all know why) so you can move them down (at least lower than Cleary).

I would suggest that your top 6 look like this
1. Cravath/Kirkland
2. Sullivan & Cromwell
3. Debevoise/Skadden
4. Skadden/Debevoise
5. Kikland /Cravath
6. Cleary


Thank you. This was really helpful.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273477
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hi everyone,
Would appreciate any comments on my NYC bidlist.
K-JD. 5 Hs, 1 DS, 4 Ps - For whatever it's worth, my Spring semester was much stronger than my Fall semester.

My current plan is to bid NY exclusively. Interested in M&A, and also have an interest in bankruptcy, so if a firm has robust practices in both, that's a plus for me. Also have heard that tax practice is interesting, so that's another factor.

1. Cravath
2. Sullivan & Cromwell
3. Debevoise
4. Simpson
5. Wachtell
6. Kirkland
7. Skadden
8. Davis Polk
9. Cleary
10. Gibson Dunn
11. Weil
12. Paul Weiss
13. Willkie
14. Fried Frank
15. Milbank
16. Latham
17. Proskauer
18. Kramer Levin
19. Covington
20. Cahill
21. Jones Day
22. Dechert
23. Hughes Hubbard
24. Cadwalader
25. Shearman
26. Bingham

A couple of concerns on my end. Would really appreciate any feedback:
First, from my research I think I'd prefer to work at Cleary/DPW over Skadden or Kirkland, but I've tried to structure my list to account for the number of bids that historically translate into interviews. Do you all think I am safe keeping Cleary/DPW at 8/9, or should I bump them up ahead of Skadden and Kirkland so as to lock them up?

Also, I feel as if there are too many firms on my list. I'd kind of prefer to really focus in on 15-18 interviews. Thoughts on this? Too risky, given the economy?


Here what I did:

1) come up with a list of 35 bids

2) come up with my absolute top 5 and absolute bottom 5

3) organize the bids on a spreadsheet in order from highest to lowest by: NUMBER OF BIDS divided by the NUMBER OF SLOTS

4) move the top 5 and bottom 5 to their respective places, regardless of their bid/slot ratios

Anonymous User
Posts: 273477
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hi everyone,
Would appreciate any comments on my NYC bidlist.
K-JD. 5 Hs, 1 DS, 4 Ps - For whatever it's worth, my Spring semester was much stronger than my Fall semester.

My current plan is to bid NY exclusively. Interested in M&A, and also have an interest in bankruptcy, so if a firm has robust practices in both, that's a plus for me. Also have heard that tax practice is interesting, so that's another factor.

1. Cravath
2. Sullivan & Cromwell
3. Debevoise
4. Simpson
5. Wachtell
6. Kirkland
7. Skadden
8. Davis Polk
9. Cleary
10. Gibson Dunn
11. Weil
12. Paul Weiss
13. Willkie
14. Fried Frank
15. Milbank
16. Latham
17. Proskauer
18. Kramer Levin
19. Covington
20. Cahill
21. Jones Day
22. Dechert
23. Hughes Hubbard
24. Cadwalader
25. Shearman
26. Bingham

A couple of concerns on my end. Would really appreciate any feedback:
First, from my research I think I'd prefer to work at Cleary/DPW over Skadden or Kirkland, but I've tried to structure my list to account for the number of bids that historically translate into interviews. Do you all think I am safe keeping Cleary/DPW at 8/9, or should I bump them up ahead of Skadden and Kirkland so as to lock them up?

Also, I feel as if there are too many firms on my list. I'd kind of prefer to really focus in on 15-18 interviews. Thoughts on this? Too risky, given the economy?


This is way too conservative for 5Hs/1DS, unless you have serious interviewing issues. Do you really think you are going to end up at Dechert or Kramer Levin? Make a list of ~15 places you actually want to work and ditch the other bids. Otherwise you are just wasting your time and theirs.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273477
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi everyone,
Would appreciate any comments on my NYC bidlist.
K-JD. 5 Hs, 1 DS, 4 Ps - For whatever it's worth, my Spring semester was much stronger than my Fall semester.

My current plan is to bid NY exclusively. Interested in M&A, and also have an interest in bankruptcy, so if a firm has robust practices in both, that's a plus for me. Also have heard that tax practice is interesting, so that's another factor.

1. Cravath
2. Sullivan & Cromwell
3. Debevoise
4. Simpson
5. Wachtell
6. Kirkland
7. Skadden
8. Davis Polk
9. Cleary
10. Gibson Dunn
11. Weil
12. Paul Weiss
13. Willkie
14. Fried Frank
15. Milbank
16. Latham
17. Proskauer
18. Kramer Levin
19. Covington
20. Cahill
21. Jones Day
22. Dechert
23. Hughes Hubbard
24. Cadwalader
25. Shearman
26. Bingham

A couple of concerns on my end. Would really appreciate any feedback:
First, from my research I think I'd prefer to work at Cleary/DPW over Skadden or Kirkland, but I've tried to structure my list to account for the number of bids that historically translate into interviews. Do you all think I am safe keeping Cleary/DPW at 8/9, or should I bump them up ahead of Skadden and Kirkland so as to lock them up?

Also, I feel as if there are too many firms on my list. I'd kind of prefer to really focus in on 15-18 interviews. Thoughts on this? Too risky, given the economy?


This is way too conservative for 5Hs/1DS, unless you have serious interviewing issues. Do you really think you are going to end up at Dechert or Kramer Levin? Make a list of ~15 places you actually want to work and ditch the other bids. Otherwise you are just wasting your time and theirs.

This is music to my ears. I only included those firms because of this orthodoxy from recruiters about making use of all the slots.

I'm going to trim it down to 15. Thanks.

- OP

PMan99
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby PMan99 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:24 am

Anonymous User wrote:
This is way too conservative for 5Hs/1DS, unless you have serious interviewing issues. Do you really think you are going to end up at Dechert or Kramer Levin? Make a list of ~15 places you actually want to work and ditch the other bids. Otherwise you are just wasting your time and theirs.


The loss anyone incurs by having to do a few more 20-minute interviews when you're sitting in the Charles doing nothing all day already is nearly zero. Plus you never know when you actually have an interview and like a firm that you weren't expecting to have on your radar. I'm not sure why you would cut down your bidlist except out of laziness; I going on 4 weeks of callbacks would be excessive but why count your chickens before they hatch.

edit: that is to say, you don't need to go on all the callbacks, but there is very little loss to doing all of the screeners

PMan99
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby PMan99 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:I had 1H and 1DS (elective) and ended up at a V5 for this summer. Had several comparable offers as well. A little WE, solid interviewer. Don't be afraid to aim high, just know the difference between an uphill battle and a brick wall (due to overt grade focus at certain firms like WLRK, S&C, elite lit boutiques, etc.) and use those reach bids strategically. The vault correlation is weak at best, particularly at HLS.


You hit the nail on the head - vault ranking is not a great measure of selectiveness. Someone with straight Ps would be absolutely wasting bids at Munger or Susman but I suspect other firms have a reputation for "selectiveness" that only stems from their vault ranking and not from reality (at HYS anyway).

Anonymous User
Posts: 273477
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:36 am

PMan99 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
This is way too conservative for 5Hs/1DS, unless you have serious interviewing issues. Do you really think you are going to end up at Dechert or Kramer Levin? Make a list of ~15 places you actually want to work and ditch the other bids. Otherwise you are just wasting your time and theirs.


The loss anyone incurs by having to do a few more 20-minute interviews when you're sitting in the Charles doing nothing all day already is nearly zero. Plus you never know when you actually have an interview and like a firm that you weren't expecting to have on your radar. I'm not sure why you would cut down your bidlist except out of laziness; I going on 4 weeks of callbacks would be excessive but why count your chickens before they hatch.

edit: that is to say, you don't need to go on all the callbacks, but there is very little loss to doing all of the screeners


That's a very lawyerly response, but in my opinion it doesn't adequately account for the fact that 200+ minutes of interviews at firms you have little to no interest in, for many of which you are likely to have already received better callbacks before walking into the room (remember that they start coming out on the first day for NYC and you aren't allowed to cancel screeners once EIP starts) is actually quite a negative experience. Not to mention the fact that many less selective firms fill their schedules, and you could be bumping someone with a couple LPs who legitimately needs that interview.

That said, if you think you will be the first top third student in the history of HLS to accept an offer at Dechert, no one is going to stop you.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273477
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
PMan99 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
This is way too conservative for 5Hs/1DS, unless you have serious interviewing issues. Do you really think you are going to end up at Dechert or Kramer Levin? Make a list of ~15 places you actually want to work and ditch the other bids. Otherwise you are just wasting your time and theirs.


The loss anyone incurs by having to do a few more 20-minute interviews when you're sitting in the Charles doing nothing all day already is nearly zero. Plus you never know when you actually have an interview and like a firm that you weren't expecting to have on your radar. I'm not sure why you would cut down your bidlist except out of laziness; I going on 4 weeks of callbacks would be excessive but why count your chickens before they hatch.

edit: that is to say, you don't need to go on all the callbacks, but there is very little loss to doing all of the screeners


That's a very lawyerly response, but in my opinion it doesn't adequately account for the fact that 200+ minutes of interviews at firms you have little to no interest in, for many of which you are likely to have already received better callbacks before walking into the room (remember that they start coming out on the first day for NYC and you aren't allowed to cancel screeners once EIP starts) is actually quite a negative experience. Not to mention the fact that many less selective firms fill their schedules, and you could be bumping someone with a couple LPs who legitimately needs that interview.

That said, if you think you will be the first top third student in the history of HLS to accept an offer at Dechert, no one is going to stop you.


OP here. I agree with this sentiment.

More importantly for me, I think the problem with doing more screeners than necessary is simply that it may congest my schedule.

For instance, say I bid 25 firms, rather than only the 15 that I really want. On a given day, I may have a morning interview with Davis Polk, but afterwards I may get stuck with five screeners at firms that I'm not really interested in, followed by an interview with Wachtell or Cravath.

Why would I subject myself to those five interviews in the middle? They could tire me out or otherwise cause me to lose my edge before the interview I really care about. I'm just not sure I see the upside. While I can see how this would be a safe hedge, I'm not that risk averse.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:23 pm

.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:is there an expert on california firms here?

can you suggest some firms to look into? if you could distinguish between lit and corp firms, that would be great.

4H's, 6P's, urm, w/e.


Did you look at the 'Ask the Experts: 2013 Regional Guides" page on OCS' website? I thought the pdf document under NoCal and SoCal sections were helpful.

And if you did look at the page, did you speak with the NoCal and/or SoCal legal recuiters ? I think you should probably start there.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:is there an expert on california firms here?

can you suggest some firms to look into? if you could distinguish between lit and corp firms, that would be great.

4H's, 6P's, urm, w/e.


Did you look at the 'Ask the Experts: 2013 Regional Guides" page on OCS' website? I thought the pdf document under NoCal and SoCal sections were helpful.

And if you did look at the page, did you speak with the NoCal and/or SoCal legal recuiters ? I think you should probably start there.


thanks, i haven't looked at it. i'm just starting my information gathering.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273477
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:is there an expert on california firms here?

can you suggest some firms to look into? if you could distinguish between lit and corp firms, that would be great.

4H's, 6P's, urm, w/e.


Did you look at the 'Ask the Experts: 2013 Regional Guides" page on OCS' website? I thought the pdf document under NoCal and SoCal sections were helpful.

And if you did look at the page, did you speak with the NoCal and/or SoCal legal recuiters ? I think you should probably start there.


NorCal or SoCal?
If NorCal, SF or the Valley? Farther afield?? Orange County? San Diego? Sacramento [god forbid]?
Any practice areas of interest (IP, tech transactions, antitrust, commercial lit, tax, etc.)?
Do you have ties to the area in CA you want, or to CA in general?

"Suggest some firms in California" is kinda pointless. Chambers & Partners would be easier. But if you narrow in, even a bit, then we might be able to give some meaningful help.

- Capt. Jack Harkness [HYS guy who did OCI 2 years ago and focused exclusively on CA firms, mainly NorCal]

Anonymous User
Posts: 273477
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:is there an expert on california firms here?

can you suggest some firms to look into? if you could distinguish between lit and corp firms, that would be great.

4H's, 6P's, urm, w/e.


Did you look at the 'Ask the Experts: 2013 Regional Guides" page on OCS' website? I thought the pdf document under NoCal and SoCal sections were helpful.

And if you did look at the page, did you speak with the NoCal and/or SoCal legal recuiters ? I think you should probably start there.


NorCal or SoCal?
If NorCal, SF or the Valley? Farther afield?? Orange County? San Diego? Sacramento [god forbid]?
Any practice areas of interest (IP, tech transactions, antitrust, commercial lit, tax, etc.)?
Do you have ties to the area in CA you want, or to CA in general?

"Suggest some firms in California" is kinda pointless. Chambers & Partners would be easier. But if you narrow in, even a bit, then we might be able to give some meaningful help.

- Capt. Jack Harkness [HYS guy who did OCI 2 years ago and focused exclusively on CA firms, mainly NorCal]


southern Cal. Corporate (broadly; general, no specific interests) or lit (not "complex lit"; non ip).

acrossthelake
Posts: 4431
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:51 pm

hlsperson1111 wrote:A few pieces of advice for those who are going to do EIP this fall:

(1) Relax. You will get a job if you exercise some common sense. People do strike out, but it's rarely because of grades alone, and it's never because your bidlist was in the wrong order.

(2) If you are targeting NYC, be ambitious. Most firms will dip below median for the right HLS student, including Cravath, DPW, etc. WLRK and S&C do not require 7+ H's. In addition, big class sizes mean that the higher-ranked firms will often dip deeper into the class than lower-ranked firms and should be a cornerstone of most people's NYC bidlists. Don't ding yourself from the V5 or V10 just because you are a median-ish candidate; these firms will be either targets or very slight reaches for you. If you have 5-7 H's, you can probably just bid the V30, swap out three or four firms, and call it a bid list.

(3) If you are targeting SF or DC, be cautious. These are smaller and very competitive markets who have their pick of top candidates. For DC, make sure you bid on some firms with larger class sizes and less sexy firms (think Crowell & Moring, Venable, Steptoe, Wiley Rein, etc.) if you are not a super-strong candidate. Don't waste bids on Williams & Connolly and similar firms if you are coming from median or slightly above median. For SF, make sure that you have a wide berth of firms and try to split your bid list with LA or SV if you are concerned about having enough firms to create a balanced and safe bid list.

(4) LA, Chicago, Boston: These three are kind of weird markets, but the long and short of it is that they are somewhat more competitive than NYC and care about ties. If you have a plausible reason to bid on one of these cities, and know that you can communicate that reason in interviews, then you should be able to fill up a bid list.

(5) Texas, ATL, and other secondary markets: I don't know a lot about them but what I've heard is that they care less about grades and more about regional ties. I probably would not bid them to the exclusion of a larger market, although you might be able to fill up a bid list exclusively with Texas firms.

(6) Don't waste bids. Don't bid on WLRK if you have 2 H's. Don't bid on Roberts and Holland because you didn't realize they exclusively do tax work. Don't bid on Mitchell Silverberg because you don't realize they exclusively do entertainment work (actually did this). These are all rookie mistakes that you can avoid if you do your homework.

(7) Your grades just don't matter that much unless they're perceptibly below average (0-1 H) or perceptibly above average (7+, maybe even 8+). Anywhere in between, it's mostly going to come down to interviewing skills, how well you can communicate interest in individual firms and click with interviewers, how well you can spin your 1L summer and resume, etc. I know that this is hard to believe, but the opacity of the HLS grading system and the strength of the HLS brand make it such that firms will dip very deep into the class. It also makes it such that being on the top end of the undifferentiated middle is not going to help you as much as it might at some other schools. I have not heard of any firms that just call back the people with the most H's, but I have definitely heard of some that ding people who have good or even great grades and expect to get a job on the basis of their transcript alone.

(8) If you have 0-1 H, one or more LPs, etc., then it's not a good time to take risks. You will very likely still get a job, but I'd probably mass mail, focus your list on NYC, avoid any firm reputed to be "grade selective", and focus on less selective firms with larger class sizes. OCS is pretty good about helping people in this boat by all accounts, so definitely try to work with them. You still shouldn't freak out about getting a job - you just might have to work a tiny bit harder.

(9) EIP is as much about deciding where you want to work as about selling yourself to firms. In 2011, the average student got 6 callbacks and 2.75 offers. Many got more. You will very likely have to make some choices, and you will do yourself a disservice if you reflexively pick the "more prestigious" or "higher-ranked" firm. Listen closely to what your interviewers say about their firm, read between the lines, and make the decision that is right for you and that will help you do what you want to do with your HLS degree.

(10) Relax. Bid lists are not due for at least 6 weeks, so take a deep breath and just enjoy the fact that you are finally done with 1L.


I agree with this.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:is there an expert on california firms here?

can you suggest some firms to look into? if you could distinguish between lit and corp firms, that would be great.

4H's, 6P's, urm, w/e.


Did you look at the 'Ask the Experts: 2013 Regional Guides" page on OCS' website? I thought the pdf document under NoCal and SoCal sections were helpful.

And if you did look at the page, did you speak with the NoCal and/or SoCal legal recuiters ? I think you should probably start there.


NorCal or SoCal?
If NorCal, SF or the Valley? Farther afield?? Orange County? San Diego? Sacramento [god forbid]?
Any practice areas of interest (IP, tech transactions, antitrust, commercial lit, tax, etc.)?
Do you have ties to the area in CA you want, or to CA in general?

"Suggest some firms in California" is kinda pointless. Chambers & Partners would be easier. But if you narrow in, even a bit, then we might be able to give some meaningful help.

- Capt. Jack Harkness [HYS guy who did OCI 2 years ago and focused exclusively on CA firms, mainly NorCal]


southern Cal. Corporate (broadly; general, no specific interests) or lit (not "complex lit"; non ip).


With 4Hs and being a URM, I think you're going to be pretty solid for SoCal. I'd say the firms with large classes in LA are strong targets for you (think Gibson, Latham); I'd avoid Irell, obviously, with any aversion to IP, and I'd probably say that Munger is a reach (but not impossible). Don't bid Susman.

Bid a lot of the NYC corporate firms with SoCal offices - S&C, Skadden, etc. None of these are fully out of reach.

If you have ties to LA, awesome. If you don't, figure out your 1 minute elevator pitch for moving there. But seriously, you're going to be good. Spend some time researching firm cultures and practice groups you find interesting, bid smart, and enjoy the couple of weeks of callback lunches.

- Capt. Jack

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:13 pm

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Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:03 pm

HLS c/o 2013 who bid on (and worked in) SoCal.

If I were looking for LA transactional with your grades, my list would look like:

Latham
Gibson
OMM
Paul Hastings
K&E
Skadden
Sidley
Jones Day
MoFo
Cooley
Sheppard Mullin
Manatt (if they come to EIP)
SullCrom

and then whatever else you need to fill up a bid list. If you are interested in lit, I would also add Jenner. Munger is a wasted bid with 4 H's. Irell may not be, but they really do want you to have an interest in IP, and not having one may very well be disqualifying with your grades.

itbdvorm
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:09 am

Re: HLS EIP 2013

Postby itbdvorm » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:is there an expert on california firms here?

can you suggest some firms to look into? if you could distinguish between lit and corp firms, that would be great.

4H's, 6P's, urm, w/e.


Did you look at the 'Ask the Experts: 2013 Regional Guides" page on OCS' website? I thought the pdf document under NoCal and SoCal sections were helpful.

And if you did look at the page, did you speak with the NoCal and/or SoCal legal recuiters ? I think you should probably start there.


if any HLS student would be willing to share these "Ask the Experts" guides with me, plz PM me. in return I'll answer any questions you have / given any advice I might be able to...




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