2013 UVA OGI Thread Forum

[5ky]

How risky is bidding all DC with a 3.53 (w/ ties, average resume/interviewing) last couple years? I was planning on 2/3 DC, 1/3 NYC and mass mailing some other markets, but I'd really prefer to just gun for DC with all my bids if it's not TOO risky.

Your 2/3 and 1/3 sounds more reasonable to me.

[Anonymous User]

Add me to the 3.7X group just around VLR cutoff, depending what it is this year. Anyone have advice for bidding southeast firms, specifically Florida and Atlanta?

And to keep track of all the Anonymous postings, I'll use a fake name.

- Johnny Football

You don't need a strategy if you have a 3.7x and are bidding the South. You'll have your pick. Congratulations.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, all you people with 3.7X GPAs should be 100% focusing on practice interviews, narratives and answers to common questions. You should put almost no thought into your bidding strategy because you will be the first ones picked. There are people with 3.5X GPAs who will outperform some of you in interviews and get offers that you should have gotten. Getting a nice GPA is only half the battle when it comes to getting the job you want. You still need to hustle and focus on interview strategy.

[Wahoos]

Sounds like an unnecessary risk. Have you seen how small the associate classes at DC firms are, apart from the handful of top ones?

It is unbelievable how many people have bid on the past at DC satellite offices when the stats show that such an office takes something like 4 or 5 SAs total (0-1 UVA people)

EDIT: meant to quote the guy who wants to do all DC

[Anonymous User]

How risky is bidding all DC with a 3.53 (w/ ties, average resume/interviewing) last couple years? I was planning on 2/3 DC, 1/3 NYC and mass mailing some other markets, but I'd really prefer to just gun for DC with all my bids if it's not TOO risky.

Have a current 3L friend who had a similar gpa (tad lower) and did extremely well in DC last year (10+ callbacks). This person also had a DC-centric resume and was a very good interviewer. You'll need to honestly assess how your background and interview skills stack up. If they're good, I think a 2/3, 1/3 split is perfectly fine. My friend also bid very conservatively, only targeting a couple top DC firms and mostly sticking to V25-100 firms with bigger classes. So it can definitely be done, but you have to play it right and make sure factors other than grades are taken care of as well.

-3L in DC

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, all you people with 3.7X GPAs should be 100% focusing on practice interviews, narratives and answers to common questions. You should put almost no thought into your bidding strategy because you will be the first ones picked. There are people with 3.5X GPAs who will outperform some of you in interviews and get offers that you should have gotten. Getting a nice GPA is only half the battle when it comes to getting the job you want. You still need to hustle and focus on interview strategy.

This is mostly true, but 3.7x is not a lock for elite DC firms. I have a friend who's a very strong interviewer (as assessed by multiple third parties) with a 3.7x and no VLR who mostly struck out targeting the top DC firms (no problems in NYC however). He did get screeners, but only a handful of callbacks and no offers among the top 10-15 DC firms he targeted. And I can say that from personal experience, the offer dinners for a number of the top DC firms were a few IP people and all VLR people, sometimes with literally no exceptions.

That's not to say that if you have a 3.7x you won't get DC. It's just to say that you do need to still do some research and find some safer firms that you like and would be comfortable with instead of assuming that you're just going to have your pick of everything.

[Anonymous User]

Add me to the 3.7X group just around VLR cutoff, depending what it is this year. Anyone have advice for bidding southeast firms, specifically Florida and Atlanta?

And to keep track of all the Anonymous postings, I'll use a fake name.

- Johnny Football

You don't need a strategy if you have a 3.7x and are bidding the South. You'll have your pick. Congratulations.

This is a little overly simplistic. The classes are small enough in these markets that a good GPA alone, while very helpful, is definitely not sufficient. First, they definitely want to see some sort of tie to the area, or at least a coherent narrative of why you want to be there. Now this threshold might be somewhat easier to meet with a good GPA, but many will be leery if you have absolutely no geographic connection (which, for Atlanta, can usually be a connection to the South generally).

Second, you are going to need some level of social competence. Like I said, these firms do not have huge classes. You do not need to be some kind of social all-star, but people will get dinged because of extreme awkwardness.

Assuming you can satisfy the above, with a 3.7X you are in great shape for every firm in Atlanta (except Bondurant maybe-- but they don't come to OGI, so they are worth a mass mail application).

[desertlaw]

Here's what will happen with this thread/OGI, guaranteed:

3.65 and above: As long as you are a decent interviewer/human being, you'll get a job. DC will be tougher, but you can crush it in Cali/NYC/Texas/South with those numbers.

3.4 to 3.6: Somewhat similar to above group but DC will be much tougher, you could end up with Skadden or you could end up with Allen & Allen & Allen. This group will have the most surprise: both in how high you can reach up the prestigious Vault ladder and with how a good amount are left without a job because they 1) bid terribly or 2) cannot interview.

Median and below: NYC, home markets with ties, smaller regional markets, hustling, special requests, becoming an outstanding interviewer/person in the next 8 weeks.

Also, when the pre-selects come out, everyone will freak out. For my OGI, I was told that I shouldn't freak out, I kept expectations low for pre-selects, and then like JawstheGreat, I was shocked to see I had only a few pre-selects (in NYC with 3.5x).

"I have a 3.68, with a Top 10 Liberal Arts Undergrad and a cool resume. Why didn't I get preselected by O'Melveny/Latham/Kirkland/Weil/Jesus?" Just chill. Let the lottery do it's magic, let the alternates fall into place, etc. Let Kevin Donovan be Kevin Donovan. They don't call him the Michael Jordan of Career Services for nothing.

Also, if you are in Cville this summer, you should be doing practice interviews with OCS a few times. If you're in a big city, go to all the 1L functions/cocktail hours you can. Learn to start smoochzing, learn to laugh at nerdy law jokes, be comfortable in a suit, and start working on your "elevator speech" for why you went to law school and want to work at a firm.

There's also going to be a weird tension throughout OGI because friends/section-mates will be getting jobs (or not getting them), posting pictures visiting NYC on Facebook in Sept or that you landed a summer job (especially this rising 2L class with your whole debacle over posting grades on Facebook). I have no comments on how exactly to handle on this, but be prepared for it. Some people will be hurt over it, some people won't care, etc. It's always awkward to talk to fellow students at this time because we're all competing for the same jobs. You don't want to be insensitive and remind them how terrible OGI is going, but you're also genuinely interested in their life and it's a natural conversation topic since everyone is going through it. I don't have advice, just be prepared that it's a weird situation.

Lastly, don't take it personally if a firm dings you (or doesn't pre-select you). Holder & Obama LLP could like your buddy who has a 3.3 more than you with your 3.65. Brush your shoulders off, and have a good attitude for the next interview.

EDIT: Also, come up with a coherent story for why you want to live in that market. That's one of the biggest hurdles in every interview, regardless of if it's your home market (you're coming back HERE? Don't you want to go to XYZ?).

[Anonymous User]

The whole "DC is tough, just go NYC bro" while once true, is becoming as tired of a shtick as xoxo's "screw law school, just go sales bro."

Their class sizes are huge, but there are so many law schools (many with greater NYC ties and entrenched in that market) and other law students targeting NYC as well.

Class of 2013 got killed because of the whole "just go NYC to be safe" thing.

I bought into this and got murdered. I had a 3.49 and I bid like 40% DC and 60% NY and my numbers in DC were far better (I had something like 60% of my DC screeners turn to callbacks compared to far less in NYC) than my numbers in NY; my resume did not have any ties to DC or NY either.

I thought my situation was an outlier, but the more I talked to classmates, the more I realized my situation, though maybe slightly more extreme was far from an outlier.

[5ky]

Here's what will happen with this thread/OGI, guaranteed:

3.65 and above: As long as you are a decent interviewer/human being, you'll get a job. DC will be tougher, but you can crush it in Cali/NYC/Texas/South with those numbers.

3.4 to 3.6: Somewhat similar to above group but DC will be much tougher, you could end up with Skadden or you could end up with Allen & Allen & Allen. This group will have the most surprise: both in how high you can reach up the prestigious Vault ladder and with how a good amount are left without a job because they 1) bid terribly or 2) cannot interview.

Median and below: NYC, home markets with ties, smaller regional markets, hustling, special requests, becoming an outstanding interviewer/person in the next 8 weeks.

Also, when the pre-selects come out, everyone will freak out. For my OGI, I was told that I shouldn't freak out, I kept expectations low for pre-selects, and then like JawstheGreat, I was shocked to see I had only a few pre-selects (in NYC with 3.5x).

"I have a 3.68, with a Top 10 Liberal Arts Undergrad and a cool resume. Why didn't I get preselected by O'Melveny/Latham/Kirkland/Weil/Jesus?" Just chill. Let the lottery do it's magic, let the alternates fall into place, etc. Let Kevin Donovan be Kevin Donovan. They don't call him the Michael Jordan of Career Services for nothing.

Also, if you are in Cville this summer, you should be doing practice interviews with OCS a few times. If you're in a big city, go to all the 1L functions/cocktail hours you can. Learn to start smoochzing, learn to laugh at nerdy law jokes, be comfortable in a suit, and start working on your "elevator speech" for why you went to law school and want to work at a firm.

There's also going to be a weird tension throughout OGI because friends/section-mates will be getting jobs (or not getting them), posting pictures visiting NYC on Facebook in Sept or that you landed a summer job (especially this rising 2L class with your whole debacle over posting grades on Facebook). I have no comments on how exactly to handle on this, but be prepared for it. Some people will be hurt over it, some people won't care, etc. It's always awkward to talk to fellow students at this time because we're all competing for the same jobs. You don't want to be insensitive and remind them how terrible OGI is going, but you're also genuinely interested in their life and it's a natural conversation topic since everyone is going through it. I don't have advice, just be prepared that it's a weird situation.

Lastly, don't take it personally if a firm dings you (or doesn't pre-select you). Holder & Obama LLP could like your buddy who has a 3.3 more than you with your 3.65. Brush your shoulders off, and have a good attitude for the next interview.

EDIT: Also, come up with a coherent story for why you want to live in that market. That's one of the biggest hurdles in every interview, regardless of if it's your home market (you're coming back HERE? Don't you want to go to XYZ?).

All credited, and even need the reason why you want to live there for NY

[Anonymous User]

3.8x, decent WE, improving interview skills.

I have no interest in NYC. How risky is bidding all DC, with a few (5 or less) VA/ATL firms?

[5ky]

3.8x, decent WE, improving interview skills.

I have no interest in NYC. How risky is bidding all DC, with a few (5 or less) VA/ATL firms?

If you aren't okay doing that, bidding in NYC wouldn't help, because there'd be some fatal aspect such as horrible interviewing that sunk you, and wouldn't be any different in NYC

[Anonymous User]

High 3.5x, want DC but have ties to southern secondary markets (I am an SA in one now) that I would be fine working in. I also have ties to DC but am K-JD. Almost zero interest in NYC. One outlier grade sunk me.

Can I afford to bid almost all DC? I will obviously bid on the other secondary to which I have ties, but can I do 35+ in DC and feel good about my chances of winding up there? Career services has said that I am a good interviewer (although there is always room for improvement).

[Anonymous User]

3.8x, decent WE, improving interview skills.

I have no interest in NYC. How risky is bidding all DC, with a few (5 or less) VA/ATL firms?

If you aren't okay doing that, bidding in NYC wouldn't help, because there'd be some fatal aspect such as horrible interviewing that sunk you, and wouldn't be any different in NYC

Doing what?

[5ky]

3.8x, decent WE, improving interview skills.

I have no interest in NYC. How risky is bidding all DC, with a few (5 or less) VA/ATL firms?

If you aren't okay doing that, bidding in NYC wouldn't help, because there'd be some fatal aspect such as horrible interviewing that sunk you, and wouldn't be any different in NYC

Doing what?

? Bidding all DC

[Anonymous User]

Since the older students are giving such great specific advice,

3.7x, engineering but not electrical or computer, passed patent bar, 1l firm sa, bidding all northern California with ties through the SO and a smattering of DC bids?

Do i need to add in NYC to be safe? Will poor interviewing be my only hurtle?

[desertlaw]

Since the older students are giving such great specific advice,

3.7x, engineering but not electrical or computer, passed patent bar, 1l firm sa, bidding all northern California with ties through the SO and a smattering of DC bids?

Do i need to add in NYC to be safe? Will poor interviewing be my only hurtle?

Enjoy Quinn Silicon Valley. I think you'll be fine dude. Practice interviewing skills and enjoy your SA job at a top firm that you feel fits your personality and character. Adding NYC not necessary except not sure you can fill 50 bids with all NorCal + "smattering" of DC.

Also, ties through the SO = money answer. "Why would you ever want to work in Texas, you've only lived on the east coast?" "Wife raises cattle and is also a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader, so there's that." Whenever I got a question like that, I always said "wife wants to live here because of her job" and that was that.

[desertlaw]

3.8x, decent WE, improving interview skills.

I have no interest in NYC. How risky is bidding all DC, with a few (5 or less) VA/ATL firms?

Not risky. Your time is done here on this thread. Do practice interviews and you will be fine. Only reason to do NYC is if you want corporate, but that sounds unlikely given you have no interest in it. Enjoy Gibson DC.

Next?

[desertlaw]

High 3.5x, want DC but have ties to southern secondary markets (I am an SA in one now) that I would be fine working in. I also have ties to DC but am K-JD. Almost zero interest in NYC. One outlier grade sunk me.

Can I afford to bid almost all DC? I will obviously bid on the other secondary to which I have ties, but can I do 35+ in DC and feel good about my chances of winding up there? Career services has said that I am a good interviewer (although there is always room for improvement).

If you want litigation, sounds like you'll want to be trying D.C. plus your southern markets. Maybe hustle to get interviews at end of summer before OGI starts in those home/regional markets, so you have an offer in your pocket before OGI starts. This is simple as emailing "hey, I'm in town, I know you're coming to OGI in a few weeks, but wondering if we could meet now." I've had varied success with it but people can get pre-OGI offers that way (works better if firm isn't coming to OGI or isn't sending specific people to OGI from the office that you're interested in).

For DC, you might have to hustle some and interview well. Some people with 3.7's have struggled in D.C. if they aren't good interviewers. If you hate NYC, then don't bid there, especially if what people are saying is true about it being more competitive than years past (still find that hard to believe, but it could be true).

Enjoy Bradley Arant in Birmingham or Paul Hastings ATL.

[Anonymous User]

Where do we see our calculated GPA? Also, thinking ahead to mass mailings, where do we get transcripts?

[5ky]

Where do we see our calculated GPA? Also, thinking ahead to mass mailings, where do we get transcripts?

SIS and Symplicity

Enjoy DLA Piper

[chem]

Where do we see our calculated GPA? Also, thinking ahead to mass mailings, where do we get transcripts?

Sis and symplicity, respectively

[Anonymous User]

3.65, only have ties to NYC and would not mind NYC but would prefer to spend my life somewhere more tropical, namely Los Angeles. How should this influence bidding? Should I drop a tier for LA firms?

Additionally, I have an interesting background and am generally personable, but have a stutter. I am working on this during the summer, but does anybody have tips on how open I should be about this, or if I should pursue some lower firms based off this? I expect and am alright with some discrimination, but want to mitigate its damage as much as possible.

[desertlaw]

3.65, only have ties to NYC and would not mind NYC but would prefer to spend my life somewhere more tropical, namely Los Angeles. How should this influence bidding? Should I drop a tier for LA firms?

Additionally, I have an interesting background and am generally personable, but have a stutter. I am working on this during the summer, but does anybody have tips on how open I should be about this, or if I should pursue some lower firms based off this? I expect and am alright with some discrimination, but want to mitigate its damage as much as possible.

1 - Los Angeles isn't the Bahamas/tropical, but it's wonderful if you like 70 degrees in January, lots of traffic, and beach babes/bums.

2 - LA is hard market to get into without ties or a good reason for being there, but a 3.65 will obviously help. You should be good to go in NYC, but you'll need a good reason to want to be in LA (I visited there every summer as a kid! My wife wants to be in the Hollywood nanny industry! I love Disneyland!).

3 - But going by your GPA alone, all LA firms are within your range except maybe Irell (not sure about Quinn).

4 - Make sure you know difference between LA, San Diego, and Orange County/Irvine firms. LA = big city, better for single life, hard to live by the beach and still do Biglaw. SD & OC = harder to get into, especially SD, without serious ties. Both better for family life and living by the beach.

Enjoy Latham LA or Skadden NYC.

[Anonymous User]

Interested in litigation/regulatory work. Obviously with my interests I will be applying to some DC firms, and I think my 3.49 won't be prohibitive in itself for some of the less selective DC firms, correct?

But I also definitely plan on applying to New York/Texas/Chicago. Think I should maintain the same interest in regulatory work for all those markets? Surely there is regulatory work outside DC, albeit less. I have been clicking attorney profiles on sites of my target firms in some of those non-DC markets I mentioned. Think that is a good way to judge what an office's strengths are? Because if you just click on the firm website, it says they are full service and do everything. Chambers and Partners has seemed instructive, but I don't want to roll into an interview with a Dallas office acting gung ho about regulatory work to be told they don't do it.

Also, big thank you to some of the rising 3Ls and alums. You guys have been great in this thread and last years. It really helps at thise stressful time.