2013 UVA OGI Thread Forum

[Anonymous User]

Median with lots of NJ ties.

Better to use top bids for NJ / CT firms and then bid on NYC? I'd rather work in NYC but I'd be content (and feel like I have a stronger case) for NJ

Not really familiar with NJ/CT firms or which ones come to OGI, but what you said probably makes sense (maybe put 1-2 NYC firms in your top 10). If there aren't many NJ/CT firms coming to OGI though, and not many people bidding on NJ/CT firms, you might have better chance at pre-select (and could have them lower on the list). Either way, I'd mass-mail firms that aren't coming.

Yeah, it's perhaps a bit riskier, but probably the best bet to maximize interviews, if you were able to move the NJ/CT firms mostly out of the top 10. At median, you probably won't get getting a ton of preselects for NY firms, so if you want interviews there, they'd come via the lottery.

That being said, I don't know how strong your ties are and how well they come across on your 1 page resume. Hopefully those NJ/CT firms ask for cover letters, because it'd be easier to show. Maybe ask career services, or maybe somebody else here has a trick for showing ties via the resume.

Raised in NJ. All WE in NJ. NJ College. Resume screams NJ. There are 3 NJ Firms coming. I plan to Mass Mail the others.

[Anonymous User]

Raised in NJ. All WE in NJ. NJ College. Resume screams NJ. There are 3 NJ Firms coming. I plan to Mass Mail the others.

Have you thought about Delaware firms at all? IIRC the Delaware firms had pretty low bid to interview ratios, and while I am not that familiar with Delaware firms, I know that people have gotten good jobs there without being from the state. I imagine you being from the next state over would be pretty compelling since it is such a small state.

You might also think about a few Philly firms. They are also going to have lower bid to interview ratios, and your ties to NJ might transfer over to Philly pretty well. However, I am not certain about this and am happy to have someone else correct me.

[Anonymous User]

If you have a high GPA, does bid order matter at all? Or maybe just for your top few choices/ places like Williams and Connolly?

Just wondering how much lottery comes into play and how much thought needs to be put into ordering this 50 firm list beyond maybe the top 10 or so

[olive16]

If you have a high GPA, does bid order matter at all? Or maybe just for your top few choices/ places like Williams and Connolly?

Just wondering how much lottery comes into play and how much thought needs to be put into ordering this 50 firm list beyond maybe the top 10 or so

What's your GPA?

[5ky]

How many interviews are you allowed to keep this year?

[chem]

How many interviews are you allowed to keep this year?

23 I think?

[5ky]

How many interviews are you allowed to keep this year?

23 I think?

If your GPA is over 3.6, 3.65 or so, then your bid list will be almost entirely irrelevant, because you won't be participating in the lottery, unless you decline so many you drop below the limit in hopes of getting a lottery interview with your favorite firm. That's not something I did, but I suppose it's not that risky, KD's admonitions about a bird in hand being better.

But even if you want to do that, nothing more than your very top few will matter at all.

[Anonymous User]

If your GPA is over 3.6, 3.5 or so, then your bid list will be almost entirely irrelevant, because you won't be participating in the lottery, unless you decline so many you drop below the limit in hopes of getting a lottery interview with your favorite firm.

I have a 3.49. Think I will do worse than somebody with a 3.5?

[Anonymous User]

If your GPA is over 3.6, 3.5 or so, then your bid list will be almost entirely irrelevant, because you won't be participating in the lottery, unless you decline so many you drop below the limit in hopes of getting a lottery interview with your favorite firm.

I have a 3.49. Think I will do worse than somebody with a 3.5?

It depends. Last year I had a similar GPA and bid about half secondary markets to which I have ties and half NYC. I ended up doing very well in the secondary markets and got like 2 preselects in NYC and a lot of alternates. I remember hearing about people with GPAs above mine having far fewer total preselects because they bid competitive firms in NYC and DC. At the same time, I had a worse callback conversion ratio than at least a couple of those same people because a lot of secondary market firms have small classes and were only extending 2 or 3 callbacks total last fall.

It really just depends on what your bid list and resume looks like. I happened to do well at the preselect stage, but a lot of people did just fine with fewer preselects.

[5ky]

If your GPA is over 3.6, 3.5 or so, then your bid list will be almost entirely irrelevant, because you won't be participating in the lottery, unless you decline so many you drop below the limit in hopes of getting a lottery interview with your favorite firm.

I have a 3.49. Think I will do worse than somebody with a 3.5?

I meant 3.6, 3.65. A 3.5 probably won't hit the 23 cap. My bad.

[Anonymous User]

Right, so, this is all well and good for the 3.5+. Anybody near median want to chime in with bidding advice?

1) I'm 3.2x, a few hundredths below median. I am indistinguishable from a 3.3x, a few hundredths above median, right? Do firms actually calculate this?

2) If I want "the south," and have demonstrable ties to the south but they are limited to a particular market, is it too hard of a sell to bid non-home markets in the south? ie. charlotte, nashville, birmingham if I were from Atlanta, etc..

3) Do I bid some NYC firms? I don't want to put them high because I'm a marginal candidate for other southern markets, so I need to bid those high. I don't want to put them low because everyone bidding NYC high per last year's advice will get them above me. A mix?

4) I know I'm probably not getting a job through OGI and I am engaged in outside efforts. Save your breath. Thanks!

[desertlaw]

Right, so, this is all well and good for the 3.5+. Anybody near median want to chime in with bidding advice?

1) I'm 3.2x, a few hundredths below median. I am indistinguishable from a 3.3x, a few hundredths above median, right? Do firms actually calculate this?

2) If I want "the south," and have demonstrable ties to the south but they are limited to a particular market, is it too hard of a sell to bid non-home markets in the south? ie. charlotte, nashville, birmingham if I were from Atlanta, etc..

3) Do I bid some NYC firms? I don't want to put them high because I'm a marginal candidate for other southern markets, so I need to bid those high. I don't want to put them low because everyone bidding NYC high per last year's advice will get them above me. A mix?

4) I know I'm probably not getting a job through OGI and I am engaged in outside efforts. Save your breath. Thanks!

If there are median alumni or rising 3L's out there that got jobs thru OGI, it'd be nice if they chimed in. Until then, you're stuck with me.

As with anyone with median grades, as KD says, hustle your network and mass-mail.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Non-home markets will probably depend on how well you can explain your ties in a cover letter/interview. Any market will want answers as to why you want to live there, the South is no different but from what I've heard they might not be too pick about deep ties to this specific city you're interviewing with. If it's only a few hours away from "home," just tell them you wanted to be a "safe distance" from family/in-laws back home but still on your own (or that you hate your home city and never want to go back), and that XYZ city is a place you really enjoy.

As far as NYC is concerned, you'll probably only get them with lottery so you might want to put them higher? But what you said about needing southern interviews first is probably correct, so maybe you sprinkle some NYC firms in your top 10 and you should probably do special requests for NYC firms. I don't think you'll be viewed differently than someone with a 3.0 if you're at a 3.29. It seems that firms look at students in "bands" (LR people/top quarter/above median/medianish/below median)

[Anonymous User]

Right, so, this is all well and good for the 3.5+. Anybody near median want to chime in with bidding advice?

1) I'm 3.2x, a few hundredths below median. I am indistinguishable from a 3.3x, a few hundredths above median, right? Do firms actually calculate this?

2) If I want "the south," and have demonstrable ties to the south but they are limited to a particular market, is it too hard of a sell to bid non-home markets in the south? ie. charlotte, nashville, birmingham if I were from Atlanta, etc..

3) Do I bid some NYC firms? I don't want to put them high because I'm a marginal candidate for other southern markets, so I need to bid those high. I don't want to put them low because everyone bidding NYC high per last year's advice will get them above me. A mix?

4) I know I'm probably not getting a job through OGI and I am engaged in outside efforts. Save your breath. Thanks!

Medianish 3L here

1) There is likely little difference for most firms. However a few firms could have a hard 3.3 cut off.

2) Part of it depends on where your home market is. If you are from ATL, it might be a harder sell to bid Bham. However, if you are from Little Rock or Jackson, bidding all over the South is easy.

3) This is a harder call. It depends on what markets you are pursuing. A lot of people bid ATL, so you might bid some in your top 10 if that is your goal. You will probably get plenty of preselects elsewhere in the south depending on the tie. If you don't, the firm probably wasn't going to get past your resume anyways. That said, NY is really tough at median if you have strong ties to a very non-NY type of market.

4) You can absolutely get a job through OGI. Do practice interviews so you are polished. However, make sure you can still come across as likeable.

[Anonymous User]

3.47

Want NYC, but have no real ties. I am sure I want to do corporate though, so would that be enough to establish why I want to be there?

Any advice on which reach firms might be more amenable to taking people at my GPA? My undergrad is not business-related, but I have a good story connecting my major to working in transactional practice. Also, I'm in the Law and Business program and on VLBR, so there's that.

Thanks in advance!

[desertlaw]

3.47

Want NYC, but have no real ties. I am sure I want to do corporate though, so would that be enough to establish why I want to be there?

Any advice on which reach firms might be more amenable to taking people at my GPA? My undergrad is not business-related, but I have a good story connecting my major to working in transactional practice. Also, I'm in the Law and Business program and on VLBR, so there's that.

Thanks in advance!

That should be enough, along with your stories/L&B. Hopefully you've visited NYC more than a few times and can talk about what you like about it. But yeah, usually "I really want to do corporate/transactional work and this is the best place." Throw in a few "a lot of my friends from college are here" and that'll probably be enough. Maybe mass-mail homemarket during summer for backup.

Practice those interviews. Enjoy Skadden NYC bro.

[5ky]

3.47

Want NYC, but have no real ties. I am sure I want to do corporate though, so would that be enough to establish why I want to be there?

Any advice on which reach firms might be more amenable to taking people at my GPA? My undergrad is not business-related, but I have a good story connecting my major to working in transactional practice. Also, I'm in the Law and Business program and on VLBR, so there's that.

Thanks in advance!

That will generally be enough, although expect pushback from a few firms, so don't get caught with a deer in the headlights look if they ask follow ups. These might include asking you how you can be sure you want corporate, why you think you'll like NYC, or if you see yourself living there long term. Have an answer ready.

[Anonymous User]

Right, so, this is all well and good for the 3.5+. Anybody near median want to chime in with bidding advice?

1) I'm 3.2x, a few hundredths below median. I am indistinguishable from a 3.3x, a few hundredths above median, right? Do firms actually calculate this?

2) If I want "the south," and have demonstrable ties to the south but they are limited to a particular market, is it too hard of a sell to bid non-home markets in the south? ie. charlotte, nashville, birmingham if I were from Atlanta, etc..

3) Do I bid some NYC firms? I don't want to put them high because I'm a marginal candidate for other southern markets, so I need to bid those high. I don't want to put them low because everyone bidding NYC high per last year's advice will get them above me. A mix?

4) I know I'm probably not getting a job through OGI and I am engaged in outside efforts. Save your breath. Thanks!

On 2, I think it is going to be a harder sell having ties to ATL and bidding Charlotte, Nashville, etc. It is fairly easy to do it in reverse- being from Charlotte and bidding ATL and having some success. I think that non-ATL firms would be worried that you are just bidding them as back-ups in case ATL doesn't work out. Additionally, I am not sure about Birmingham, but Charlotte and Nashville have VERY few SA position available. It would be tough with a 3.2X I think. I know people with better grades who didn't do well in those markets.

[Anonymous User]

Can someone share their thoughts on the timing of mass mailing in secondary market?
I am assuming June is too early to send in applications to firms?
Our OGI is pretty early so it would make sense to mass mail earlier?

Thanks a lot!

[Anonymous User]

Any bidding suggestions for 3.3X students who are from primary markets and only have ties to other primaries? Or strategies other than mass mail, network, job fairs, practice interviewing, etc?

[desertlaw]

Can someone share their thoughts on the timing of mass mailing in secondary market?
I am assuming June is too early to send in applications to firms?
Our OGI is pretty early so it would make sense to mass mail earlier?

Thanks a lot!

When is OGI? I think that early July is probably best for earliest for mass-mailing. Reach out to an alumni/connection in the next few weeks, but mass-mail in early/mid July.

[Anonymous User]

Right, so, this is all well and good for the 3.5+. Anybody near median want to chime in with bidding advice?

1) I'm 3.2x, a few hundredths below median. I am indistinguishable from a 3.3x, a few hundredths above median, right? Do firms actually calculate this?

2) If I want "the south," and have demonstrable ties to the south but they are limited to a particular market, is it too hard of a sell to bid non-home markets in the south? ie. charlotte, nashville, birmingham if I were from Atlanta, etc..

3) Do I bid some NYC firms? I don't want to put them high because I'm a marginal candidate for other southern markets, so I need to bid those high. I don't want to put them low because everyone bidding NYC high per last year's advice will get them above me. A mix?

4) I know I'm probably not getting a job through OGI and I am engaged in outside efforts. Save your breath. Thanks!

On 2, I think it is going to be a harder sell having ties to ATL and bidding Charlotte, Nashville, etc. It is fairly easy to do it in reverse- being from Charlotte and bidding ATL and having some success. I think that non-ATL firms would be worried that you are just bidding them as back-ups in case ATL doesn't work out. Additionally, I am not sure about Birmingham, but Charlotte and Nashville have VERY few SA position available. It would be tough with a 3.2X I think. I know people with better grades who didn't do well in those markets.

I'll echo this. Don't know anything about Nashville, but Charlotte firms tend to want at least NC-specific ties, if not Charlotte-specific ties. In my experience, they're very picky with this. I'm sure Atlanta ties will serve you a lot better than, say, New Jersey ties there, but it still might be kind of tough. Plus, there aren't a lot of SA positions in CLT to start with, and you'll ultimately be competing with the top students at UNC/Wake and probably a decent number of strong students from Duke.

On the other hand, anywhere in the South tends to work for Birmingham, as long as you have a decent GPA. Or at least that's what I've seen.

[Morgan12Oak]

Just for general advice going into OGI:

1. I see a lot of threads/posts people saying they are average/above average/excellent interviewers and I'm skeptical that many people actually are. The fact that you've been told by CSO or interviewers that you're a good interviewer really shouldn't be weighted too heavily. Simply being able to articulate great answers to Why Firm X? Why City Y? Why did you go to law school? makes you nothing more than an average interviewer probably. That's going to be sufficient for a lot of people to get firm jobs, but if you really want to be a good/excellent interviewer, you have to have excellent answers to all the questions and find a way to connect with your interviewer. The "excellent" interview many times is the interview where 20 minutes goes by and none of those Why Firm X, Why City Y questions even come up and some random interest is discussed that you've been able to connect to the interviewer with.

2. Work experience. 1-2 years of work experience and a good college internship again does not make you above average. 2 years of work experience is basically the average and being K-JD and having a prestigious internship during college isn't "average work experience," in itself, its significantly below. Good work experience is doing an analyst program at an IB or Consulting or Big 4 Accounting. Great experience are people who had full careers before law school (and military experience).

[desertlaw]

Just for general advice going into OGI:

1. I see a lot of threads/posts people saying they are average/above average/excellent interviewers and I'm skeptical that many people actually are. The fact that you've been told by CSO or interviewers that you're a good interviewer really shouldn't be weighted too heavily. Simply being able to articulate great answers to Why Firm X? Why City Y? Why did you go to law school? makes you nothing more than an average interviewer probably. That's going to be sufficient for a lot of people to get firm jobs, but if you really want to be a good/excellent interviewer, you have to have excellent answers to all the questions and find a way to connect with your interviewer. The "excellent" interview many times is the interview where 20 minutes goes by and none of those Why Firm X, Why City Y questions even come up and some random interest is discussed that you've been able to connect to the interviewer with.

2. Work experience. 1-2 years of work experience and a good college internship again does not make you above average. 2 years of work experience is basically the average and being K-JD and having a prestigious internship during college isn't "average work experience," in itself, its significantly below. Good work experience is doing an analyst program at an IB or Consulting or Big 4 Accounting. Great experience are people who had full careers before law school (and military experience).

I would agree with all of this. I think an "excellent" interviewer is someone who can

1 - show (not tell) in every answer why you have at least one of XYZ characteristics. Tie in every answer to one of your "themes" that the attorney will remember when you leave the room.

2 - make a personal connection with the attorney as stated above. Part of what makes OGI/callbacks somewhat fun is that you get to meet a ton of different people. Simply asking them how their day is going, whether they are enjoying being back in Cville (if they are alumni), and shooting the shit about sports/top-law-schools.com/current affairs are all things that will make the interviewer more likely to remember you in a positive light.

3 - I'm not a 100% believer in having a bright attitude about every damn thing, but I do think you will have an advantage if you embrace the challenge and find something enjoyable/fun/entertaining out of the whole experience.

Getting to this point will take more than just practice interviews with OCS. You should be going to the 1L summer happy hours, practicing answers in front of a mirror, wearing a suit around your apartment at least twice a week to feel comfortable in it.

[Anonymous User]

Bid to SEMJF with a 3.4 (All NY firms) and GPA dropped to median. If I get preselected by a 3.4, do employers ask for updated resumes? Has anyone had an experience with this? I guess the ball is in my court now and I can try to wow them during the interview.

[5ky]

wearing a suit around your apartment at least twice a week to feel comfortable in it.

underrated advice if you aren't used to wearing a suit. it's noticeable