2013 UVA OGI Thread Forum

[5ky]

So I have what might seem like an odd question: Is there any place that I can go to find out what the normal start dates are for law firms in DC and Richmond? The reason that I ask is that I heard some firms have fairly late start dates for associates, think October. Is that normal in DC? Richmond? NYC?

- Honorable Penguin

October is not a "fairly late" start date. That's a month later than the earliest start dates possible, since in all likelihood you wouldn't start before September. And it just differs by firms, you'll have to run individual searches. There are threads where people talk about their start dates.

An extra 30 days + of living on borrowed money sounds like a pretty expensive proposition (not all of us are single and can live in a basement on ramen noodles). Paying for rent and groceries on my credit card is not really an option. So yeah, October sounds "fairly late" when all the firms in the market where I currently am in start people in September and August.

- Honorable Penguin

That's what bar stipends/advances are for. Alternatively, you can plan ahead and take a little extra money in loans. Regardless, there are other places you can try to find this information. But in my opinion it's silly to pre-restrict what firm you choose for that reason. If you are determined, however, you can try to look through one of those other threads. Note that firms often change this on a year to year basis, and some people starting in the fall still haven't heard.

[Anonymous User]

So I have what might seem like an odd question: Is there any place that I can go to find out what the normal start dates are for law firms in DC and Richmond? The reason that I ask is that I heard some firms have fairly late start dates for associates, think October. Is that normal in DC? Richmond? NYC?

- Honorable Penguin

October is not a "fairly late" start date. That's a month later than the earliest start dates possible, since in all likelihood you wouldn't start before September. And it just differs by firms, you'll have to run individual searches. There are threads where people talk about their start dates.

An extra 30 days + of living on borrowed money sounds like a pretty expensive proposition (not all of us are single and can live in a basement on ramen noodles). Paying for rent and groceries on my credit card is not really an option. So yeah, October sounds "fairly late" when all the firms in the market where I currently am in start people in September and August.

- Honorable Penguin

That's what bar stipends/advances are for. Alternatively, you can plan ahead and take a little extra money in loans. Regardless, there are other places you can try to find this information. But in my opinion it's silly to pre-restrict what firm you choose for that reason. If you are determined, however, you can try to look through one of those other threads. Note that firms often change this on a year to year basis, and some people starting in the fall still haven't heard.

I understand. I just don't know how I would provide for my family if I had to wait until November to start work. I don't think I could afford to provide for my family for 1/2 a year on ~$5K. I suppose this is an odd reason to hope for a clerkship.

- Honorable Penguin

[Anonymous User]

I understand. I just don't know how I would provide for my family if I had to wait until November to start work. I don't think I could afford to provide for my family for 1/2 a year on ~$5K. I suppose this is an odd reason to hope for a clerkship.

- Honorable Penguin

Most clerkships don't start until around September, and you don't get an advance. Just FYI.

[Anonymous User]

I understand. I just don't know how I would provide for my family if I had to wait until November to start work. I don't think I could afford to provide for my family for 1/2 a year on ~$5K. I suppose this is an odd reason to hope for a clerkship.

- Honorable Penguin

Most clerkships don't start until around September, and you don't get an advance. Just FYI.

Your wife could get a job in the interim?

[Anonymous User]

So it's obvious some of you are not married with children. I know clerkships don't start until September, but in my personal situation I could borrow against the clerkship bonus at 0% interest - family connections. I was also commenting on my own situation - my wife doesn't want me to clerk for monetary reasons. BTW my wife works. Pay for health insurance on more than two people and get back to me. Thank you for the helpful advice.

- Honorable Penguin

[Anonymous User]

If you are going to be that cash strapped and the firm is worth a lot more money then I would punt the health insurance for a couple months. I went without health insurance for years, because it was between that and graduating college. I figured a .00001% chance of death or being a gimp (in which case I'd prob pull the trigger) was worth less than finishing college. Just don't do crazy shit, and pray. You shouldn't make life choices about it. Health insurance is a luxury in this country, and just be grateful you're getting it covered by your firm once you start.

[5ky]

If you are going to be that cash strapped and the firm is worth a lot more money then I would punt the health insurance for a couple months. I went without health insurance for years, because it was between that and graduating college. I figured a .00001% chance of death or being a gimp (in which case I'd prob pull the trigger) was worth less than finishing college. Just don't do crazy shit, and pray. You shouldn't make life choices about it. Health insurance is a luxury in this country, and just be grateful you're getting it covered by your firm once you start.

We're so far off the thread's purpose again. But kids prob need health insurance. They get sick and hurt. A lot.

[Anonymous User]

If you are going to be that cash strapped and the firm is worth a lot more money then I would punt the health insurance for a couple months. I went without health insurance for years, because it was between that and graduating college. I figured a .00001% chance of death or being a gimp (in which case I'd prob pull the trigger) was worth less than finishing college. Just don't do crazy shit, and pray. You shouldn't make life choices about it. Health insurance is a luxury in this country, and just be grateful you're getting it covered by your firm once you start.

We're so far off the thread's purpose again. But kids prob need health insurance. They get sick and hurt. A lot.

Darwin it. Just make more if you need to.

[StanleyF]

Sorry in advance for this off-topic post. I'm just checking in after a couple of days away and saw a couple things I wanted to (very) briefly respond to.

1) As to the "easiness" of getting good grades: I in no way meant to suggest that it's "easy" to do well in law school. But the poster had a 3.6x, and my advice was to try to keep it. That would mean to keep doing what he/she has been doing all along. I realize this is not a guarantee of success. And while this workload may not be "easy," it's also not so horrible that he/she will be cloistered in the library for 14 hours a day.

2) To the poster worried about firm start dates. I had the same issue. I borrowed extra money in my 3L year and set it aside to cover the summer. If that's not an option for you, there are companies that specialize in loaning law students money to pay for bar review and living expenses until they start work. At least one (and maybe all) of these don't charge interest for the first several months. PM if you want the name of the one I know about.

Edited to say: I promise not to go off topic again!

[bananapeanutbutter]

Excluding New York what market not requiring strong ties has the best deli sandwich? This is arguably more important than the firm's ranking or practice areas.

[Anonymous User]

I did some mass mailings and got a callback coming up. I can list attorney's I want to talk to. Should I aim for all UVA grads? Mix of partners/associates? Same UG degree?

[desertlaw]

I did some mass mailings and got a callback coming up. I can list attorney's I want to talk to. Should I aim for all UVA grads? Mix of partners/associates? Same UG degree?

A few UVa alumns for sure, and then some partners/associates in the type of practice you're interested in, if you have one. Undergrad degree probably not enough of a shared interest unless it was something super important/unique.

[desertlaw]

Excluding New York what market not requiring strong ties has the best deli sandwich? This is arguably more important than the firm's ranking or practice areas.

Obviously doing academia so you can stay at UVa and eat BellAir for rest of career.

This is a clown question, bro. If you live in a big city, there's likey a deli sandwich place that people go crazy for. C'mon people, let's get our shit together. All markets need ties, but here you go: http://www.localeats.com/top-10-restaur ... n-america/

[5ky]

I did some mass mailings and got a callback coming up. I can list attorney's I want to talk to. Should I aim for all UVA grads? Mix of partners/associates? Same UG degree?

A few UVa alumns for sure, and then some partners/associates in the type of practice you're interested in, if you have one. Undergrad degree probably not enough of a shared interest unless it was something super important/unique.

I've never really heard of being asked who specifically you want to talk to. That's weird. I was always just asked what practice areas I was interested in, and they would match me up with that group and a few alums if they were available.

I think you should just tell them you'd like to talk to people in practice area X (or X, Y, whatever), and then mention you wouldn't mind getting to talk to an alum if possible. Going too far in depth just strikes me as too Type A. But again, I've never even heard of something like that.

[5ky]

FYI

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/06/nationwi ... l-gotshal/

[UVAIce]

It looks to me as if what they are really doing here is trying to close up shop in some of their sattelite offices that aren't performing.

I have no idea what firm would be a good place to go to and not get stealthed or straight laid off. It still feels a whole lot like 2008.

[Anonymous User]

It looks to me as if what they are really doing here is trying to close up shop in some of their sattelite offices that aren't performing.

I have no idea what firm would be a good place to go to and not get stealthed or straight laid off. It still feels a whole lot like 2008.

FWIW, friend of mine at the NYC office said he could tell things have been slower lately.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone post examples of really bad bidding for someone with a 3.6?

Would this only be using high bids on like Wachtell or would it be bidding out of market?

[bk1]

I understand. I just don't know how I would provide for my family if I had to wait until November to start work. I don't think I could afford to provide for my family for 1/2 a year on ~$5K. I suppose this is an odd reason to hope for a clerkship.

- Honorable Penguin

Most clerkships don't start until around September, and you don't get an advance. Just FYI.

Correct, they often start around when firms start. You might still get an advance/stipend from your firm if you've accepted the offer to return post clerkship.

@Honorable Penguin: If things go according to plan (and you get biglaw), you will make around $25k after taxes during your 1L summer. Couple that with a $5k-ish post-tax bar stipend (or salary advance) and you should be fine to survive off 2L and 3L summer with $30k income combined over the 2 summers.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone post examples of really bad bidding for someone with a 3.6?

Would this only be using high bids on like Wachtell or would it be bidding out of market?

Can't really screw up bidding too badly. First, unless things have changed, Wachtell doesn't come to OGI (and a 3.6 is wayyyy off of what you would need). Second, bidding on markets (that are not NY) to which you have no ties is almost always a bad idea. Third, avoid the few firms obviously out of your league (e.g. Boies, Williams and Connolly), and if you're more risk averse don't bid only reach firms (Covington DC, Wilmer DC, etc.). Fourth, I have heard that you shouldn't bid Cleary NY because of Aquagirl--not sure how true that is anymore since there is a UVA student summering there now.

[Anonymous User]

It looks to me as if what they are really doing here is trying to close up shop in some of their sattelite offices that aren't performing.

I have no idea what firm would be a good place to go to and not get stealthed or straight laid off. It still feels a whole lot like 2008.

FWIW, friend of mine at the NYC office said he could tell things have been slower lately.

Is this an associate or a summer? And what's "lately"? Because I know that certain types of deal work have slowed down in the last few weeks because of market conditions, but that's (for now) a short-term issue.

[Anonymous User]

Same poster - would you mind listing what's a big reach for this 3.6-3.7 range in NY and LA? It doesn't seem to be 1:1 correlated with the vault rankings. I'm just going from the 3.5 up segment - not opposed to any band really - just want a jerb.

Can anyone post examples of really bad bidding for someone with a 3.6?

Would this only be using high bids on like Wachtell or would it be bidding out of market?

Can't really screw up bidding too badly. First, unless things have changed, Wachtell doesn't come to OGI (and a 3.6 is wayyyy off of what you would need). Second, bidding on markets (that are not NY) to which you have no ties is almost always a bad idea. Third, avoid the few firms obviously out of your league (e.g. Boies, Williams and Connolly), and if you'rUe more risk averse don't bid only reach firms (Covington DC, Wilmer DC, etc.). Fourth, I have heard that you shouldn't bid Cleary NY because of Aquagirl--not sure how true that is anymore since there is a UVA student summering there now.

[Anonymous User]

Two questions:

1. Since career services' asterisks in their firm list don't really help very much, can we flesh this out a little more? what's off limits in NYC with a a low 3.6x?

2. I've had a counseling appointment "pending" in simplicity for a week. Does anyone know what's up with that?

[desertlaw]

Two questions:

1. Since career services' asterisks in their firm list don't really help very much, can we flesh this out a little more? what's off limits in NYC with a a low 3.6x?

2. I've had a counseling appointment "pending" in simplicity for a week. Does anyone know what's up with that?

A big reach for 3.6x would be Cravath, S&C, Wachtell for NYC. Everything else is probably fair game.

For the poster above with a 3.6-3.7 looking for LA, then Irell is probably your biggest reach along with S&C. Everything else is in your range.

[Anonymous User]

Two questions:

1. Since career services' asterisks in their firm list don't really help very much, can we flesh this out a little more? what's off limits in NYC with a a low 3.6x?

2. I've had a counseling appointment "pending" in simplicity for a week. Does anyone know what's up with that?

A big reach for 3.6x would be Cravath, S&C, Wachtell for NYC. Everything else is probably fair game.

For the poster above with a 3.6-3.7 looking for LA, then Irell is probably your biggest reach along with S&C. Everything else is in your range.

ooh oooh do NorCal and DC reaches!