2013 UVA OGI Thread Forum

[Anonymous User]

Yes, people get jobs through the lottery. I got my job through the lottery. I don't even think it's uncommon. I generally got the impression that interviewers didn't know whether I was a preselect, because preselects are done by the recruiting staff and not by the lawyer they choose to send into the room.

Are grades still taken into account then or is that part done?

Also, how many alternates are there per pre-select slot? Should I figure if there's 14 preselects, there are 28 alternates? This would determine whether to reject interviews. Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

soooo, i misspelled a word in the cover letter for my number one ranked firm. Almost certain I didn't get selected because of it (secondary market, obvious ties, very good grades). I can get it through the lottery if i decline down to 22 bids but I'm wondering if the ship has sunk.

any ideas on how to salvage the situation?

[Anonymous User]

Yes, people get jobs through the lottery. I got my job through the lottery. I don't even think it's uncommon. I generally got the impression that interviewers didn't know whether I was a preselect, because preselects are done by the recruiting staff and not by the lawyer they choose to send into the room.

Are grades still taken into account then or is that part done?

Also, how many alternates are there per pre-select slot? Should I figure if there's 14 preselects, there are 28 alternates? This would determine whether to reject interviews. Thanks!

For the FIRST (screening) interview, grades matter. To what extent they matter depends on the firm. For example, I remember Gibson Dunn had a list of students with a calculated GPA next to each name. I'm guessing grades matter for Gibson Dunn.

For the SECOND (callback) interview, grades generally DO NOT matter. Again, there is some variation by firm.


Re: Preselects vs. Lottery, I had interviews where the interviewers knew I was a preselect and ones where they did not know. Obviously, the firms could figure it out if they wanted because the firms are the ones who "preselect." It seems that this is a combination of (1) whether the HR department notes the difference AND (2) whether the interviewer takes notice.

[Anonymous User]

soooo, i misspelled a word in the cover letter for my number one ranked firm. Almost certain I didn't get selected because of it (secondary market, obvious ties, very good grades). I can get it through the lottery if i decline down to 22 bids but I'm wondering if the ship has sunk.

any ideas on how to salvage the situation?

I think I'd just go through the lottery, and not bring it up unless they do. It's possible they denied you for a different reason.

[Anonymous User]

Data point: Median, 16 PS, 11 A. DC/NYC - networking ftw

[Anonymous User]

Data point: Median, 16 PS, 11 A. DC/NYC - networking ftw

wow. 16 is really good numbers. do you have WE?

[Anonymous User]

Just want to give a shout out to how good our career services is.

Cannot get one positive reply to mass mails, and an interview would be a pipe dream. However, I should be having the full 23 interviews next month. This suggests that our top 10 employment rate is very much a reflection of career services.

[Anonymous User]

I assume no one knows of any secret way to unselect a preselect...

[Anonymous User]

Data point: Median, 16 PS, 11 A. DC/NYC - networking ftw

wow. 16 is really good numbers. do you have WE?

No WE other than internships. K-JD. Just really worked hard networking.

[biglawww]

I assume no one knows of any secret way to unselect a preselect...

Call career services I think they can do it for you.

[sundance95]

Data point: Median, 16 PS, 11 A. DC/NYC - networking ftw

wow. 16 is really good numbers. do you have WE?

No WE other than internships. K-JD. Just really worked hard networking.

Nice, keep it up though--still need to close.

[Anonymous User]

Top 25%-ish. Bid 30 NYC, and the rest secondary markets and DC.

Only received 1 preselect in NYC, and 8 alternates. Did relatively well in the secondary markets (total of 8 preselects and 6 alternates), but they are cities where my ties are tenuous at best. Would really prefer NYC, since I'm looking to do transactional work if at all possible.

Spoke to CSO and they informed me that the reason I failed so miserably compared to my peers in NYC might be because of my resume (I am a non-traditional major and a K-JD). Obviously, there is nothing I can do about that at his point, all I can do is attempt to receive as many interviews as I can. I'm hoping some of the NYC alternates come through, but if not I would still like to find a way to get in front of some decent NYC firms. Any suggestions? Is it acceptable to email firms now that didn't select me, or is that not cool? Do I just show up at their hospitality suites unannounced and try to introduce myself there? Any help would be great.

[Anonymous User]

Top 25%-ish. Bid 30 NYC, and the rest secondary markets and DC.

Only received 1 preselect in NYC, and 8 alternates. Did relatively well in the secondary markets (total of 8 preselects and 6 alternates), but they are cities where my ties are tenuous at best. Would really prefer NYC, since I'm looking to do transactional work if at all possible.

Spoke to CSO and they informed me that the reason I failed so miserably compared to my peers in NYC might be because of my resume (I am a non-traditional major and a K-JD). Obviously, there is nothing I can do about that at his point, all I can do is attempt to receive as many interviews as I can. I'm hoping some of the NYC alternates come through, but if not I would still like to find a way to get in front of some decent NYC firms. Any suggestions? Is it acceptable to email firms now that didn't select me, or is that not cool? Do I just show up at their hospitality suites unannounced and try to introduce myself there? Any help would be great.

It is still weird you got so few preselects?

What was your major if you don't mind my asking? I also have a non-traditional major, and work experience but not for a company - more self employed/independent contracting (in the economy, the only way to pull over 500/week with my degree was to learn how to make your own money), and may have underperformed my #'s a bit but still got most of the ones I wanted. Are you from NY originally?

CSO is the best to ask, but the hospitality suite would depend on your personality. For example, I'm personable but not suave so I do not think I would be able to show up at these suites and pull interviews without coming across as used car salesmanish. I know other people from our year who I am sure would be able to.

I think e-mailing may be a little aggressive, but on the other hand if you're not a jerk about it the worst that can happen is they'll ignore you or say no. You can mass mail NY, but really all of the decent sized firms will be here anyway so it may be one of the few markets where mass mailing is pretty worthless. Have you considered expanding your pool a bit? Top 25%ish here is really good, but the economy is still poor and I do not think that in itself solidifies 160k NYC. Would you consider North Jersey, Connecticut, etc.? The tri-state area has a ton of penumbras of big law, and maybe mass mailing there would be more effective. NYC is only 99 miles from Philadelphia, for example. I have a relative who commuted from a South Jersey suburb to NYC 4x a week, and it was only about 80 minutes each way to the office, which is only 20 minutes more than most partners' commutes from Long Island to the office. My point is you can actually be in better financial shape given the 35-40% less COL, only 10% difference in market pay and still be nearly as close to NYC for social/family purposes.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe older students can chime in, but in asking questions to the interviewer what is the boarderline of inappropriate -

1.) Is asking about why a particular firm has a sub-80% offer rate to SA's in a particular year inappropriate?
2.) How they dealt with the 2008 economic downturn - did they stand behind their staff/lay them off?
3.) What the average life for an associate is with the firm, and where are they typically a year after leaving? Is there a realistic partnership tract?
4.) If there's a gym/track that would make a midday run feasible? (last is just a personal thing that would influence the quality of my work/happiness - need a second wind halfway through, and opportunity to shower.)

[Anonymous User]

Maybe older students can chime in, but in asking questions to the interviewer what is the boarderline of inappropriate -

1.) Is asking about why a particular firm has a sub-80% offer rate to SA's in a particular year inappropriate?
2.) How they dealt with the 2008 economic downturn - did they stand behind their staff/lay them off?
3.) What the average life for an associate is with the firm, and where are they typically a year after leaving? Is there a realistic partnership tract?
4.) If there's a gym/track that would make a midday run feasible? (last is just a personal thing that would influence the quality of my work/happiness - need a second wind halfway through, and opportunity to shower.)

I am happy to have others who have had experience with these questions chime in. I personally dealt with the timing of asking 1, 2, and 4. I never asked 3 in a screener or callback.

1) I would wait until you have an offer in hand to ask about it. In my experience, firms were happy to talk about it, but I felt less worried about asking after getting the offer. Once they give you an offer, firms will usually follow-up with you to see if you have any questions, or you can contact them directly.

2) I think it's okay, but some ways of asking will be more tactful than others. For instance, you might ask how the firm has responded to the changes in the legal market over the past few years.

3) I'm honestly not sure about this one. I think it is okay to ask after getting an offer, but I'm not sure about asking pre-offer. It may also depend on the firm. I suspect large NYC firms would be less miffed about it since they expect high attrition, but a firm in a secondary market that focuses on retaining its associates might be put off by such a question even post-offer. I have even heard about some of the attorneys at top NYC firms bringing it up themselves in screeners or callbacks as a way to show that you can go there and expect to have excellent options should you ever choose to leave.

4) Sure, but maybe be careful about talking about midday runs. Might be a bit odd to an attorney when a law student is talking about taking off in the middle of the day for an hour or half hour. You might mention that it would be great to have a place to exercise in the evening when you are there working on a project or something like that.

[Anonymous User]

Hey, guys.

I just had a 45-minute meeting with KD and got some really great information. He told me to keep it secret, but I really don’t see why that’s necessary because this stuff is really helpful. Besides, after following Manning and Snowden developments, and after JM’s courageous GPA crusade, I don’t think there should be any secrets.

Okay, in all seriousness, here’s a little background: I’m median and looking to DC/NYC, with some attention to more secondary markets like Atlanta, Charlotte, and Philadelphia. But even if you’re not median—even if you’re a 3.0 or a 3.8—this could really help you, I think, because it’s broadly applicable.

There’s really nothing left to do now that we have our preselects done—except for those few firms that still haven’t decided, though we’ll find out soon (I’m assured). But you do have alternates and you will have lottery picks, and there is also the whole resume bank we did and plain cold writing firms to see if you can work for them.

So I just asked KD point blank, “What can I do to make sure that I get a job this coming summer?” At first he recommended the usual stuff—diligence with research, doing mock interviews, following up and not making an ass of yourself in the process. But everyone knows this stuff and it didn’t really give me the edge I needed or wanted going forward. So I asked again, “Seriously, what can I do?”

Well, he said. What you need to do when you get back to your computer is log into Symplicity and go to the OGI tab. You’ll see all the usual stuff. But what you won’t see is that if you go to your preselects and alternates and click on the “I” button again, you’ll have the option of seeing more data than there was before. He assured me that they frequently update this, and so it will not only show now who you’re interviewing with and the basic requirements, but also other data including specific GPA averages from the years before, and what questions they’ve asked in the past.

I didn’t believe this, but he assured me it was true. So I thanked him profusely and as I was leaving he stopped me. “Hey, Mr. _______” he said. “What’s that?” I replied. And then he said: “I’m going to need about tree-fiddy.” “Tree-fiddy?” I asked. “Tree-fiddy,” he answered. And it was at this time that I realized KD was eight stories tall and a crustacean from the Paleolithic era. That goddamned monster had gotten me again! "Goddamnit monster, I ain't givin' you no tree fiddy!" I exclaimed. And that's what happened, and hope you all take something away from it. So that's really what you need to do according to KD, from what I gathered at our latest meeting, and I think this will really help you all going forward. Let me know if you want me to fill in any more details about what went down.

[Anonymous User]

Hey, guys.
Well, he said. What you need to do when you get back to your computer is log into Symplicity and go to the OGI tab. You’ll see all the usual stuff. But what you won’t see is that if you go to your preselects and alternates and click on the “I” button again, you’ll have the option of seeing more data than there was before. He assured me that they frequently update this, and so it will not only show now who you’re interviewing with and the basic requirements, but also other data including specific GPA averages from the years before, and what questions they’ve asked in the past.

Thanks for sharing. KD is awesome.
But I can't see the "I" button you mentioned.
I can only see the usual stuffs that are always there on symplicity. How do you get to that data?

But I know we can ask them for those data so I'm guessing students can't see unless we ask.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe older students can chime in, but in asking questions to the interviewer what is the boarderline of inappropriate -

1.) Is asking about why a particular firm has a sub-80% offer rate to SA's in a particular year inappropriate?
2.) How they dealt with the 2008 economic downturn - did they stand behind their staff/lay them off?
3.) What the average life for an associate is with the firm, and where are they typically a year after leaving? Is there a realistic partnership tract?
4.) If there's a gym/track that would make a midday run feasible? (last is just a personal thing that would influence the quality of my work/happiness - need a second wind halfway through, and opportunity to shower.)

I am happy to have others who have had experience with these questions chime in. I personally dealt with the timing of asking 1, 2, and 4. I never asked 3 in a screener or callback.

1) I would wait until you have an offer in hand to ask about it. In my experience, firms were happy to talk about it, but I felt less worried about asking after getting the offer. Once they give you an offer, firms will usually follow-up with you to see if you have any questions, or you can contact them directly.

2) I think it's okay, but some ways of asking will be more tactful than others. For instance, you might ask how the firm has responded to the changes in the legal market over the past few years.

3) I'm honestly not sure about this one. I think it is okay to ask after getting an offer, but I'm not sure about asking pre-offer. It may also depend on the firm. I suspect large NYC firms would be less miffed about it since they expect high attrition, but a firm in a secondary market that focuses on retaining its associates might be put off by such a question even post-offer. I have even heard about some of the attorneys at top NYC firms bringing it up themselves in screeners or callbacks as a way to show that you can go there and expect to have excellent options should you ever choose to leave.

4) Sure, but maybe be careful about talking about midday runs. Might be a bit odd to an attorney when a law student is talking about taking off in the middle of the day for an hour or half hour. You might mention that it would be great to have a place to exercise in the evening when you are there working on a project or something like that.

Definitely would not ask (1) except post-offer. Agree with above about (2). For (3), definitely don't ask about partner track until after offer, but you could an associate where they see themselves in X years. Some firms pride themselves on the post-firm opportunities (I'm thinking of large NY firms like Cravath, Skadden, S&C), so a tactful question about post-firm employment would probably be fine, and they'd probably be happy to brag. I would probably also save (4) for post-offer as well unless it's something benign like, "What do you do when you're not working?"/"What are some of your hobbies outside of work?" When you get offers and are comparing between firms, that's the time for direct, hard-hitting questions. For example, I was deciding between firms and one of them has a reputation for some screamers, so I asked, "You have this reputation. Is it true? If not, why do you think students have this perception?"

[Anonymous User]

What exactly is an alternate?

[Anonymous User]

I did my summer internship in Mexico because I am trying to clean up the streets, and rid them of drug dealers. I figured that Mexico would be a great place to start because there are a multitude of drug related offenses that are committed. Therefore, I bought my suit at a Brooks Brothers in Tijuana. In the states the suits normally come with an American flag pin, but in Mexico they predictably come with a Mexican pin. I was initially going to remove it, but the green matches my tie and I look great with it. Would it be weird to wear the Mexican flag pin to OGI? I am not Mexican, but it seems like a great conversation starter.

[Anonymous User]

Should i be checking symplicity for alternates that turn into preselects or does KD email you every time?

[Anonymous User]

I did my summer internship in Mexico because I am trying to clean up the streets, and rid them of drug dealers. I figured that Mexico would be a great place to start because there are a multitude of drug related offenses that are committed. Therefore, I bought my suit at a Brooks Brothers in Tijuana. In the states the suits normally come with an American flag pin, but in Mexico they predictably come with a Mexican pin. I was initially going to remove it, but the green matches my tie and I look great with it. Would it be weird to wear the Mexican flag pin to OGI? I am not Mexican, but it seems like a great conversation starter.

what if they don't ask about it?

[sundance95]

I did my summer internship in Mexico because I am trying to clean up the streets, and rid them of drug dealers. I figured that Mexico would be a great place to start because there are a multitude of drug related offenses that are committed. Therefore, I bought my suit at a Brooks Brothers in Tijuana. In the states the suits normally come with an American flag pin, but in Mexico they predictably come with a Mexican pin. I was initially going to remove it, but the green matches my tie and I look great with it. Would it be weird to wear the Mexican flag pin to OGI? I am not Mexican, but it seems like a great conversation starter.

what if they don't ask about it?

accidental anon, this is me

[Anonymous User]

I did my summer internship in Mexico because I am trying to clean up the streets, and rid them of drug dealers. I figured that Mexico would be a great place to start because there are a multitude of drug related offenses that are committed. Therefore, I bought my suit at a Brooks Brothers in Tijuana. In the states the suits normally come with an American flag pin, but in Mexico they predictably come with a Mexican pin. I was initially going to remove it, but the green matches my tie and I look great with it. Would it be weird to wear the Mexican flag pin to OGI? I am not Mexican, but it seems like a great conversation starter.

what if they don't ask about it?

accidental anon, this is me

I am actually hoping to do Tijuana Big Law as an international human rights attorney so I am primarily interested in firms with offices in Tijuana.

[envisciguy]

Should i be checking symplicity for alternates that turn into preselects or does KD email you every time?

I was under the impression that he only emails you if the alternates become preselects and you had already signed up for 23 preselects. I could be wrong though.