Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

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Summerz
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Summerz » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:This place was a ghost town by noon today. I'd be very surprised if any NYC BL firms are open Friday. I have to wonder if the courts are even open Friday.

NYC BL. We were open yesterday though about half of the attorneys worked from home; summers were required to show up but it was pretty low key.

Is NYC BL usually 9-5 for SAs?

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Flips88
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Flips88 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:05 am

Summerz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:This place was a ghost town by noon today. I'd be very surprised if any NYC BL firms are open Friday. I have to wonder if the courts are even open Friday.

NYC BL. We were open yesterday though about half of the attorneys worked from home; summers were required to show up but it was pretty low key.

Is NYC BL usually 9-5 for SAs?

You clearly haven't noticed all the posts here of people saying they regularly stay till like 7.

AllTheLawz
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby AllTheLawz » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:17 am

Flips88 wrote:
Summerz wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:This place was a ghost town by noon today. I'd be very surprised if any NYC BL firms are open Friday. I have to wonder if the courts are even open Friday.

NYC BL. We were open yesterday though about half of the attorneys worked from home; summers were required to show up but it was pretty low key.

Is NYC BL usually 9-5 for SAs?

You clearly haven't noticed all the posts here of people saying they regularly stay till like 7.


Honesty, I would take everything people say on here with a grain of salt. There were times I was working on the exact same deals as another SA and I was leaving at 5:30 while they were leaving at 8:30. People work at entirely different speeds and a fair number of SAs seriously just do time-consuming crap for the purpose of consuming time. Guarantee that in reality 75% of the people staying after 7 could have left at 5:30 if they would have been more efficient. Even worse, TLS is likely to be overrepresented with these types.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:26 am

AllTheLawz wrote:
Flips88 wrote:
Summerz wrote:Is NYC BL usually 9-5 for SAs?

You clearly haven't noticed all the posts here of people saying they regularly stay till like 7.


Honesty, I would take everything people say on here with a grain of salt. There were times I was working on the exact same deals as another SA and I was leaving at 5:30 while they were leaving at 8:30. People work at entirely different speeds and a fair number of SAs seriously just do time-consuming crap for the purpose of consuming time. Guarantee that in reality 75% of the people staying after 7 could have left at 5:30 if they would have been more efficient. Even worse, TLS is likely to be overrepresented with these types.

Why would you make this assumption just because you're on the same deals? You do understand that what you do on a deal, as a Summer Associate, is only a small piece of the work that whatever junior you're working for thinks you can handle without him/her having to look over your should the entire time, correct? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you're probably doing real work on the deal, but you're realistically doing a 10-15% excerpt of what the junior is actually handling. So to assume that (i) the junior can break out equal 7.5% splits for you and the other summer associate to each work on and (ii) that you're just so much more efficient than that other junior is simply not reflective of how this actually works. Even to assume that an equal split of diligencing 30 contracts each requires the same amount of time/efficiency can be completely off.

AllTheLawz
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby AllTheLawz » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:53 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
AllTheLawz wrote:
Flips88 wrote:
Summerz wrote:Is NYC BL usually 9-5 for SAs?

You clearly haven't noticed all the posts here of people saying they regularly stay till like 7.


Honesty, I would take everything people say on here with a grain of salt. There were times I was working on the exact same deals as another SA and I was leaving at 5:30 while they were leaving at 8:30. People work at entirely different speeds and a fair number of SAs seriously just do time-consuming crap for the purpose of consuming time. Guarantee that in reality 75% of the people staying after 7 could have left at 5:30 if they would have been more efficient. Even worse, TLS is likely to be overrepresented with these types.

Why would you make this assumption just because you're on the same deals? You do understand that what you do on a deal, as a Summer Associate, is only a small piece of the work that whatever junior you're working for thinks you can handle without him/her having to look over your should the entire time, correct? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you're probably doing real work on the deal, but you're realistically doing a 10-15% excerpt of what the junior is actually handling. So to assume that (i) the junior can break out equal 7.5% splits for you and the other summer associate to each work on and (ii) that you're just so much more efficient than that other junior is simply not reflective of how this actually works. Even to assume that an equal split of diligencing 30 contracts each requires the same amount of time/efficiency can be completely off.


I know exactly what they are working on. I am in the room when they assign us both the work, half the time explicitly telling us not to work late on it. In addition, a lot of it is work that is the same task just in segments or an identical task for separate clients. In addition, sometimes we are both assigned something and then it is up to us to break it in half. Unless these same people just somehow randomly get the bad end of a task day in and day out, I am pretty sure they are either staying around just to tell us the next day how late they worked (which they always do) or just because they are incredibly inefficient.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:55 am

AllTheLawz wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
AllTheLawz wrote:
Flips88 wrote:You clearly haven't noticed all the posts here of people saying they regularly stay till like 7.


Honesty, I would take everything people say on here with a grain of salt. There were times I was working on the exact same deals as another SA and I was leaving at 5:30 while they were leaving at 8:30. People work at entirely different speeds and a fair number of SAs seriously just do time-consuming crap for the purpose of consuming time. Guarantee that in reality 75% of the people staying after 7 could have left at 5:30 if they would have been more efficient. Even worse, TLS is likely to be overrepresented with these types.

Why would you make this assumption just because you're on the same deals? You do understand that what you do on a deal, as a Summer Associate, is only a small piece of the work that whatever junior you're working for thinks you can handle without him/her having to look over your should the entire time, correct? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you're probably doing real work on the deal, but you're realistically doing a 10-15% excerpt of what the junior is actually handling. So to assume that (i) the junior can break out equal 7.5% splits for you and the other summer associate to each work on and (ii) that you're just so much more efficient than that other junior is simply not reflective of how this actually works. Even to assume that an equal split of diligencing 30 contracts each requires the same amount of time/efficiency can be completely off.


I know exactly what they are working on. I am in the room when they assign us both the work, half the time explicitly telling us not to work late on it. In addition, a lot of it is work that is the same task just in segments or an identical task for separate clients. In addition, sometimes we are both assigned something and then it is up to us to break it in half. Unless these same people just somehow randomly get the bad end of a task day in and day out, I am pretty sure they are either staying around just to tell us the next day how late they worked (which they always do) or just because they are incredibly inefficient.

I'm not saying that's impossible in your particular case, but to say that 75% of people staying after 7 could have left at 5:30 is just a ridiculous assumption for a SA to think he can make.

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Sheffield
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Sheffield » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:48 pm

Working late is a mix of so many variables like getting pulled out of the office for a two hour meeting or the usual late incoming assignment. The thing is I don’t know anyone who minds it... sure beats cramming until midnight because of school work.

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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:35 pm

My NY firm's hours are 9:30 to 5:30. The associates and partners have been very careful to rarely assign work that would require us to stay much past 6:30 or so (i.e., last-minute work or longer assignments due very soon) and I don't know anyone who has come in on a weekend. Some SAs do seem to regularly stay late, but most are happy to leave at 5:30 or 6.

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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby mr.hands » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:My NY firm's hours are 9:30 to 5:30. The associates and partners have been very careful to rarely assign work that would require us to stay much past 6:30 or so (i.e., last-minute work or longer assignments due very soon) and I don't know anyone who has come in on a weekend. Some SAs do seem to regularly stay late, but most are happy to leave at 5:30 or 6.


How long do the associates stay around (i.e. not SAs)?

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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:21 pm

mr.hands wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:My NY firm's hours are 9:30 to 5:30. The associates and partners have been very careful to rarely assign work that would require us to stay much past 6:30 or so (i.e., last-minute work or longer assignments due very soon) and I don't know anyone who has come in on a weekend. Some SAs do seem to regularly stay late, but most are happy to leave at 5:30 or 6.


How long do the associates stay around (i.e. not SAs)?


Associate here: People at my firm work brutal hours overall, but things still definitely quiet down after 7:00 or so. On my floor maybe 5-25% of us are around later than that, and it's a shifting group (though disproportionately first years, for a host of reasons - less control over workflow, more need to be "on site" for scanning/printing than a senior is likely to be, etc.). Certainly more get work done at home, but even in a brutally busy practice area you can't tell much by "how late people stay around" - depends so much on workflow at the time and other factors.

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Renne Walker
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Renne Walker » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:13 pm

All those things you hear about BL hours (rarely seeing wife, kids, etc.) are true. It’s not unusual for some associates to go several days without leaving before 10P (or perhaps later than that).

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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:00 pm

mr.hands wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:My NY firm's hours are 9:30 to 5:30. The associates and partners have been very careful to rarely assign work that would require us to stay much past 6:30 or so (i.e., last-minute work or longer assignments due very soon) and I don't know anyone who has come in on a weekend. Some SAs do seem to regularly stay late, but most are happy to leave at 5:30 or 6.


How long do the associates stay around (i.e. not SAs)?


It will depend a lot on the practice group, but it seems like most associates will stay until 6:30 just about every weekday and later than that a few times a week. Some do work at home and many work on the weekend as well. When a deal is near closing, it's fairly common to see an associate stay until midnight a few nights in a row or to work 10+ hours a weekend to make sure everything is taken care of.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby FeelTheHeat » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:06 pm

Why are you people so concerned with the hours you're working

If you get a offer, you'll be there till 10 or 11 a lot of nights. Might as well get used to it

sheisrisen
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby sheisrisen » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:56 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
AllTheLawz wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
AllTheLawz wrote:
Honesty, I would take everything people say on here with a grain of salt. There were times I was working on the exact same deals as another SA and I was leaving at 5:30 while they were leaving at 8:30. People work at entirely different speeds and a fair number of SAs seriously just do time-consuming crap for the purpose of consuming time. Guarantee that in reality 75% of the people staying after 7 could have left at 5:30 if they would have been more efficient. Even worse, TLS is likely to be overrepresented with these types.

Why would you make this assumption just because you're on the same deals? You do understand that what you do on a deal, as a Summer Associate, is only a small piece of the work that whatever junior you're working for thinks you can handle without him/her having to look over your should the entire time, correct? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you're probably doing real work on the deal, but you're realistically doing a 10-15% excerpt of what the junior is actually handling. So to assume that (i) the junior can break out equal 7.5% splits for you and the other summer associate to each work on and (ii) that you're just so much more efficient than that other junior is simply not reflective of how this actually works. Even to assume that an equal split of diligencing 30 contracts each requires the same amount of time/efficiency can be completely off.


I know exactly what they are working on. I am in the room when they assign us both the work, half the time explicitly telling us not to work late on it. In addition, a lot of it is work that is the same task just in segments or an identical task for separate clients. In addition, sometimes we are both assigned something and then it is up to us to break it in half. Unless these same people just somehow randomly get the bad end of a task day in and day out, I am pretty sure they are either staying around just to tell us the next day how late they worked (which they always do) or just because they are incredibly inefficient.

I'm not saying that's impossible in your particular case, but to say that 75% of people staying after 7 could have left at 5:30 is just a ridiculous assumption for a SA to think he can make.


He/she clearly said they are comparing their hours to other summers on the same deal, not junior associates. Take a deep breath and reread before arguing like a nut.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:24 pm

sheisrisen wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
AllTheLawz wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:Why would you make this assumption just because you're on the same deals? You do understand that what you do on a deal, as a Summer Associate, is only a small piece of the work that whatever junior you're working for thinks you can handle without him/her having to look over your should the entire time, correct? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you're probably doing real work on the deal, but you're realistically doing a 10-15% excerpt of what the junior is actually handling. So to assume that (i) the junior can break out equal 7.5% splits for you and the other summer associate to each work on and (ii) that you're just so much more efficient than that other junior is simply not reflective of how this actually works. Even to assume that an equal split of diligencing 30 contracts each requires the same amount of time/efficiency can be completely off.


I know exactly what they are working on. I am in the room when they assign us both the work, half the time explicitly telling us not to work late on it. In addition, a lot of it is work that is the same task just in segments or an identical task for separate clients. In addition, sometimes we are both assigned something and then it is up to us to break it in half. Unless these same people just somehow randomly get the bad end of a task day in and day out, I am pretty sure they are either staying around just to tell us the next day how late they worked (which they always do) or just because they are incredibly inefficient.

I'm not saying that's impossible in your particular case, but to say that 75% of people staying after 7 could have left at 5:30 is just a ridiculous assumption for a SA to think he can make.


He/she clearly said they are comparing their hours to other summers on the same deal, not junior associates. Take a deep breath and reread before arguing like a nut.

I would offer you your own advice. Please reread my bolded above which directly preempts exactly what he tries to argue.

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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:49 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
sheisrisen wrote:

He/she clearly said they are comparing their hours to other summers on the same deal, not junior associates. Take a deep breath and reread before arguing like a nut.

I would offer you your own advice. Please reread my bolded above which directly preempts exactly what he tries to argue.


No it doesn't. You're talking about a junior associate doing different work. He/she is talking about a summer associate with the exact same assignment.

Edit: still sheisrisen. reread. You are right, but you make a typo calling summers juniors.

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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:53 pm

Wrote a substantive motion a while back (towards the start of the summer). Got the result faster than expected. Work product was filled with my actual work (some minor changes -- arguments all the same, just some wording changes). We won the motion. Talk about making my summer so far. Hopefully this helps with an offer -- fingers crossed.

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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:17 am

Anonymous User wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
sheisrisen wrote:

He/she clearly said they are comparing their hours to other summers on the same deal, not junior associates. Take a deep breath and reread before arguing like a nut.

I would offer you your own advice. Please reread my bolded above which directly preempts exactly what he tries to argue.


No it doesn't. You're talking about a junior associate doing different work. He/she is talking about a summer associate with the exact same assignment.

Edit: still sheisrisen. reread. You are right, but you make a typo calling summers juniors.

No. I'm giving context for why it is impossible for a junior associate like myself to possibly give identical work to two summer associates working on the "same" assignment. If it helps you to ignore the first part of my post and read the bolded only, please feel free to do so.

ETA: Look, I don't want to get into an argument with you about what the intent of my post was, so let me clarify it: even if you think you have been given an identical assignment as another SA, it is highly unlikely that this will be the case. Even when the assignment is "Review contracts 1-50 in the data room. Summer A can review 1-25, and Summer B can review 26-50." the amount of time required for each assignment can actually vary significantly.

It is highly unlikely that 75% of people staying until 7pm could leave at 5:30 but stayed (i) because they were so much less efficient than anonymous poster or (ii) merely to brag about working late (who brags about working until 7 pm anyways?). I would encourage you as a summer to spend less time thinking about whether others are as efficient as you and to spend more time making sure your work product is flawless.

ETA pt. 2: You're right - I accidentally threw "other junior" in there on accident instead of "other summer". My mistake, guys - sorry for the confusion.

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alicrimson
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby alicrimson » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:52 pm

Did anyone else who enjoyed a four day weekend have the hardest time getting back into work today? I sure did. haha. Maybe it's the assignment. I've been doing case assessment. Basically, I get some sparse facts and am told to go find a claim that can win, pull cases for and against us, and plan for alternative facts that we aren't aware of. The joy. At least there's no hard deadline. Goal is Wednesday.

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TTRansfer
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby TTRansfer » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:55 pm

alicrimson wrote:Did anyone else who enjoyed a four day weekend have the hardest time getting back into work today? I sure did. haha. Maybe it's the assignment. I've been doing case assessment. Basically, I get some sparse facts and am told to go find a claim that can win, pull cases for and against us, and plan for alternative facts that we aren't aware of. The joy. At least there's no hard deadline. Goal is Wednesday.


I thought I was going to have a hard time. But I was incredibly busy today which made the day go by a hell of a lot more quickly.

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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:31 pm

AllTheLawz wrote:Honesty, I would take everything people say on here with a grain of salt. There were times I was working on the exact same deals as another SA and I was leaving at 5:30 while they were leaving at 8:30. People work at entirely different speeds and a fair number of SAs seriously just do time-consuming crap for the purpose of consuming time. Guarantee that in reality 75% of the people staying after 7 could have left at 5:30 if they would have been more efficient. Even worse, TLS is likely to be overrepresented with these types.


it is definitely true that i know lot of strivers who are either inefficient or think that showing up early and staying late makes them look good because they are used to the mundane rote-learning exercise of law school where putting in countless hours can actually equal a ROI even though exact opposite is true of a biglaw SA. it is true that there are people who don't take the hint even when associates come into the office and literally tell them it makes them look bad. however, it is also true that i know a lot of summers who are legitimately on five time-consuming projects at once or were handed a binder the size of fucking in search of lost time and told to present on it and research the issue by tomorrow and legitimately need to be there until 7 or 8 or midnight. my firm's "hours" are also "9:30 to 5:30," but very few summers actually leave until 6ish, and a lot also come in at 9 or earlier. and i'm not at cravath or wachtell or whatever. so it really depends. that is my sensationalistic anecdote.

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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:02 am

I stayed until 8 today but literally spent the entire morning fucking with the work management system and the time entry system (I had to enter in all my time for last week and am working on a project for 10 different clients that need me to enter in each one separately -- real attorneys let an assistant handle that). Then I went to lunch. Then I took a coffee break. It's whatever. Some people might think it looks bad but I'd be surprised if it matters, really.

If someone gives me shit, I'll just tell them I plan on raging hard Thursday and want to get out of the office early on Friday.

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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:11 pm

Soooo slow. I went from completely slammed every week to crawling on one assignment. I haven't had to look for work yet, but I'm thinking that time is coming. I've been trying not to overanalyze and think this has something to do with my work product, but it's tough.

I just keep reminding myself that anxious people are irrational, I haven't had anyone say anything but positive things about my work, and that stress will do nothing. Can only do my best.

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Skye
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Skye » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:33 pm

So much for having the 4th and 5th off. This week has been non-stop to the point where I haven’t left until 8PM and tonight it was nearly 10PM (working with partners). I guess this is good news.

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Sheffield
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Re: Summer Associate: Thoughts, Anxieties, Experiences, etc.

Postby Sheffield » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:17 pm

It shouldn’t be long from now until we begin hearing about offers and no-offer.




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