S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

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Anonymous User
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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 20, 2013 9:03 pm

Peyton wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Peyton wrote:When do firms usually divulge their intentions?
If you're screwing up, you'll probably hear about it; I don't think it's common for firms to be silent about a summer's mistakes until the end. Some firms do official offers at the end of the summer, others give informal "you're being recommended for an offer" meetings (that's what mine does) and then the official offer comes two weeks later, and a few firms won't even go that far.
Thanks for the heads-up. If you are “no offered” do you head over to OCI and hope for the best? Is there a way to maneuver around a “no offer” when talking to OCI recruiters?

If you are “offered” what exactly happens during 3L? Do you go to the firm as a SA or do you wind up studying for the bar… or?

3L OCI is mostly just for people with offers trying to switch firms. No-offered 3Ls can try, but they're unlikely to get anything out of it; instead, they do whatever it is that 3Ls who didn't have SA positions do. I'm not sure there's a way to "maneuver around" the issue without lying, and I can't imagine a firm would be willing to hire someone who they knew was no-offered. A few SAs get screwed by being at a firm that genuinely can't afford to give everyone an offer, but for the most part, the legal economy has reverted back to the norm of only the truly incompetent being no-offered (albeit with smaller summer classes). 3Ls with offers study for the bar after they graduate and then usually start work sometime in September-November.

shock259
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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby shock259 » Mon May 20, 2013 9:16 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
My firm said the same and dinged someone for being weird. So don't get too cocky.


Yep. Didn't mean for it to sound cocky at all. Partly terrified.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 20, 2013 9:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
shock259 wrote:1 day down. Just a lot of administrative stuff. Met a few associates/partners but not many. Like the people so far. At a V50 with ~100% offer rate. Firm told us that they have space to give us all offers (so we aren't competing against each other), but we still have to earn the offer by doing good work. I'm guessing they are just trying to motivate/scare us a bit.


My firm said the same and dinged someone for being weird. So don't get too cocky.

My firm said the same thing and I got no offered. When I later asked someone I trusted at the firm about the whole "we have space for everyone" thing he said they tell that to the SAs every year and every year it's a lie

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RELIC
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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby RELIC » Mon May 20, 2013 9:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
shock259 wrote:1 day down. Just a lot of administrative stuff. Met a few associates/partners but not many. Like the people so far. At a V50 with ~100% offer rate. Firm told us that they have space to give us all offers (so we aren't competing against each other), but we still have to earn the offer by doing good work. I'm guessing they are just trying to motivate/scare us a bit.


My firm said the same and dinged someone for being weird. So don't get too cocky.

My firm said the same thing and I got no offered. When I later asked someone I trusted at the firm about the whole "we have space for everyone" thing he said they tell that to the SAs every year and every year it's a lie

Damn. That is scary.

NYstate
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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby NYstate » Mon May 20, 2013 10:06 pm

RELIC wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
shock259 wrote:1 day down. Just a lot of administrative stuff. Met a few associates/partners but not many. Like the people so far. At a V50 with ~100% offer rate. Firm told us that they have space to give us all offers (so we aren't competing against each other), but we still have to earn the offer by doing good work. I'm guessing they are just trying to motivate/scare us a bit.


My firm said the same and dinged someone for being weird. So don't get too cocky.

My firm said the same thing and I got no offered. When I later asked someone I trusted at the firm about the whole "we have space for everyone" thing he said they tell that to the SAs every year and every year it's a lie

Damn. That is scary.


OP shock259: they are not just trying to motivate you. They are trying to find out if you might possibly be worth the huge salary they might commit to pay you. They won't hire someone who does bad work or who can't fit in. If you can't manage great work product as a summer, you won't cut it as an associate.

Like DF said: don't get cocky.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby rad lulz » Mon May 20, 2013 10:17 pm

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby NYstate » Mon May 20, 2013 11:02 pm

Firms will hire people who are no offered. Make sure you get some solid relationships with senior associates and partners who will give you a recommendation if you get no offered.
Try to get an offer but it isn't as if you have an insurmountable burden with no hope of ever getting an offer anywhere. From what I have seen it is extremely difficult but not impossible like the anon poster implied.

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chrisbru
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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby chrisbru » Tue May 21, 2013 9:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:3L OCI is mostly just for people with offers trying to switch firms. No-offered 3Ls can try, but they're unlikely to get anything out of it; instead, they do whatever it is that 3Ls who didn't have SA positions do. I'm not sure there's a way to "maneuver around" the issue without lying, and I can't imagine a firm would be willing to hire someone who they knew was no-offered. A few SAs get screwed by being at a firm that genuinely can't afford to give everyone an offer, but for the most part, the legal economy has reverted back to the norm of only the truly incompetent being no-offered (albeit with smaller summer classes). 3Ls with offers study for the bar after they graduate and then usually start work sometime in September-November.


What about people who summered at a firm that doesn't traditionally offer their summer clerks ever? My legitimate answer will likely be something like:
"They want to hire me, but they only hire full time associates on an as-needed basis. At this time, the firm cannot support another full-time attorney. While they may be looking to bring one on in the next year or two, I am looking for a firm that I can begin my career with and stay with rather than moving around firms."

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby TTRansfer » Tue May 21, 2013 4:20 pm

chrisbru wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:3L OCI is mostly just for people with offers trying to switch firms. No-offered 3Ls can try, but they're unlikely to get anything out of it; instead, they do whatever it is that 3Ls who didn't have SA positions do. I'm not sure there's a way to "maneuver around" the issue without lying, and I can't imagine a firm would be willing to hire someone who they knew was no-offered. A few SAs get screwed by being at a firm that genuinely can't afford to give everyone an offer, but for the most part, the legal economy has reverted back to the norm of only the truly incompetent being no-offered (albeit with smaller summer classes). 3Ls with offers study for the bar after they graduate and then usually start work sometime in September-November.


What about people who summered at a firm that doesn't traditionally offer their summer clerks ever? My legitimate answer will likely be something like:
"They want to hire me, but they only hire full time associates on an as-needed basis. At this time, the firm cannot support another full-time attorney. While they may be looking to bring one on in the next year or two, I am looking for a firm that I can begin my career with and stay with rather than moving around firms."


Well, you can tell that to them but you're basically in the "without-an-offer-3L" group.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Peyton » Tue May 21, 2013 8:59 pm

Last night I was with a friend who started her first SA week. She is already undergoing “offered” anxiety. Some of her colleagues were given no-brainer tasks while she and others were handed ground breaking difficult complex assignments.

Edit for clarity: I believe part of her anxiety is because she knows two 3Ls who are SOL because (she was told) their first three SA weeks went totally sideways. Isn't the first week or two sort of a pre-season or is it serious?

NYstate
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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby NYstate » Tue May 21, 2013 9:12 pm

Peyton wrote:Last night I was with a friend who started her first SA week. She is already undergoing “offered” anxiety. Some of her colleagues were given no-brainer tasks while she and others were handed ground breaking difficult complex assignments.

Edit for clarity: I believe part of her anxiety is because she knows two 3Ls who are SOL because (she was told) their first three SA weeks went totally sideways. Isn't the first week or two sort of a pre-season or is it serious?


What do you think? Take your work seriously from day one to the last day.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Stinson » Tue May 21, 2013 9:18 pm

When I summered there was a ton of variety in people's first assignments - some people got stuff that took two days, a few others got ones that they had for weeks. Sometimes it happens because people express interests in certain things and they try to give you something that is at least in that ballpark, but that means that sometimes the tasks available in that area will be really complex or really simple.

As to the pre-season question, not to create anxiety but in at least one sense it's not. Summering at a firm that hires most or all of its SA's - so most big firms - is about playing defense. You don't need to do awesome. Indeed, you don't know vaguely enough to do awesome. You just need to avoid a big disaster that going to get some partner gunning for you at the hiring committee meeting or put you first on the block if they decide not to offer everyone. That big disaster can come early or late - if someone important really gets you in their sights that won't matter.

That said, as I mentioned it's about playing defense, so tell her that. If it's really complex, she should be asking people for help or guidance, so that it will probably go okay and if it doesn't people will know that she gave it a good shot. The worst thing she can do is shut herself up in her office, work like mad but in the totally wrong direction, and then in three weeks when people ask for the results find that she did the totally wrong thing. Nervous people sometimes do that.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Peyton » Tue May 21, 2013 9:44 pm

Stinson wrote:When I summered there was a ton of variety in people's first assignments - some people got stuff that took two days, a few others got ones that they had for weeks. Sometimes it happens because people express interests in certain things and they try to give you something that is at least in that ballpark, but that means that sometimes the tasks available in that area will be really complex or really simple.

As to the pre-season question, not to create anxiety but in at least one sense it's not. Summering at a firm that hires most or all of its SA's - so most big firms - is about playing defense. You don't need to do awesome. Indeed, you don't know vaguely enough to do awesome. You just need to avoid a big disaster that going to get some partner gunning for you at the hiring committee meeting or put you first on the block if they decide not to offer everyone. That big disaster can come early or late - if someone important really gets you in their sights that won't matter.

That said, as I mentioned it's about playing defense, so tell her that. If it's really complex, she should be asking people for help or guidance, so that it will probably go okay and if it doesn't people will know that she gave it a good shot. The worst thing she can do is shut herself up in her office, work like mad but in the totally wrong direction, and then in three weeks when people ask for the results find that she did the totally wrong thing. Nervous people sometimes do that.

Thank you for the great input. Exactly what occurs when the partners gather on SA offering day (if there is such a thing)? Do all the partners have a vote or do so some partners have a bigger say-so? I would guess some partners would be for or against others neutral.

Instead of me trying to visualize a dozen hypotheticals (firm open to hire 100%, 80%, etc.), could you generalize the likely common procedure? Again, thanks.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Stinson » Tue May 21, 2013 10:02 pm

Peyton wrote:
Stinson wrote:When I summered there was a ton of variety in people's first assignments - some people got stuff that took two days, a few others got ones that they had for weeks. Sometimes it happens because people express interests in certain things and they try to give you something that is at least in that ballpark, but that means that sometimes the tasks available in that area will be really complex or really simple.

As to the pre-season question, not to create anxiety but in at least one sense it's not. Summering at a firm that hires most or all of its SA's - so most big firms - is about playing defense. You don't need to do awesome. Indeed, you don't know vaguely enough to do awesome. You just need to avoid a big disaster that going to get some partner gunning for you at the hiring committee meeting or put you first on the block if they decide not to offer everyone. That big disaster can come early or late - if someone important really gets you in their sights that won't matter.

That said, as I mentioned it's about playing defense, so tell her that. If it's really complex, she should be asking people for help or guidance, so that it will probably go okay and if it doesn't people will know that she gave it a good shot. The worst thing she can do is shut herself up in her office, work like mad but in the totally wrong direction, and then in three weeks when people ask for the results find that she did the totally wrong thing. Nervous people sometimes do that.

Thank you for the great input. Exactly what occurs when the partners gather on SA offering day (if there is such a thing)? Do all the partners have a vote or do so some partners have a bigger say-so? I would guess some partners would be for or against others neutral.

Instead of me trying to visualize a dozen hypotheticals (firm open to hire 100%, 80%, etc.), could you generalize the likely common procedure? Again, thanks.


It's impossible to generalize - every firm is going to handle the mechanics differently. Usually though size will preclude something like a meeting of all the partners to vote, so the decision will be made by a committee of partners (and associates too, at my firm.) Generally everyone for whom you work will write a review or something and the committee people will look over it. At my firm the committee met every week or two and read the reviews as they came in, and talked to the reviewer if they had more questions or big concerns. That's why screwing up, even early, can hurt you later.

And I think it impossible that some partners would not have more pull than others. A firm has to keep big rainmakers happy, because the firm needs them but they do not always need the firm. So they're not going to do something that's going to piss off someone with a big book of business. And then, of course, there are also partners who are very well respected by their colleagues whose words will carry a lot of weight. Generally the hiring committee people will not work with everyone so they trust their colleagues. They usually re-go over all the reviews at the hiring meeting regardless of when the reviews were turned in, which is another reason early mistakes are as bad as late ones. If you must piss someone off, you want it to be someone who:

1. is not on the committee and
2. nobody likes and
3. does not make it rain.

And even that is still dangerous, and there aren't many people who are all three anyway.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 21, 2013 11:00 pm

wanted some advice from people who have been through this. just started firm job this week. today, we were supposed to have dinner with our partner mentors at the end of the day and recruiting kept us over with an orientation program. the partner was super pissed and annoyed. the meal was kind of awkward after that. tried my best to make up for it but didn't have much to say as i didn't want to blame anyone. is this going to kill me for the rest of the summer? should i talk to recruiting? what do you guys think?

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby bluecrab5448 » Tue May 21, 2013 11:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:wanted some advice from people who have been through this. just started firm job this week. today, we were supposed to have dinner with our partner mentors at the end of the day and recruiting kept us over with an orientation program. the partner was super pissed and annoyed. the meal was kind of awkward after that. tried my best to make up for it but didn't have much to say as i didn't want to blame anyone. is this going to kill me for the rest of the summer? should i talk to recruiting? what do you guys think?

That sounds like poor communication between recruiting and the partners. I would try talking to recruiting and see if they can smooth things over. I don't see how it'll reflect badly on you though: it's not as if you could have gotten up in the middle of the program and left.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby 5ky » Wed May 22, 2013 12:15 am

bluecrab5448 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:wanted some advice from people who have been through this. just started firm job this week. today, we were supposed to have dinner with our partner mentors at the end of the day and recruiting kept us over with an orientation program. the partner was super pissed and annoyed. the meal was kind of awkward after that. tried my best to make up for it but didn't have much to say as i didn't want to blame anyone. is this going to kill me for the rest of the summer? should i talk to recruiting? what do you guys think?

That sounds like poor communication between recruiting and the partners. I would try talking to recruiting and see if they can smooth things over. I don't see how it'll reflect badly on you though: it's not as if you could have gotten up in the middle of the program and left.


I would most assuredly NOT whine to recruiting about this. It's not your fault and there's no way you could ever be blamed for it. Don't worry about it.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Scotusnerd » Wed May 22, 2013 6:10 am

5ky wrote:I would most assuredly NOT whine to recruiting about this. It's not your fault and there's no way you could ever be blamed for it. Don't worry about it.


This. Recruiting doesn't need some boob grad student telling them how to do their job.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Lincoln » Wed May 22, 2013 11:00 am

Anonymous User wrote:wanted some advice from people who have been through this. just started firm job this week. today, we were supposed to have dinner with our partner mentors at the end of the day and recruiting kept us over with an orientation program. the partner was super pissed and annoyed. the meal was kind of awkward after that. tried my best to make up for it but didn't have much to say as i didn't want to blame anyone. is this going to kill me for the rest of the summer? should i talk to recruiting? what do you guys think?


I probably wouldn't talk to recruiting. If you explained why you were late and apologized, there's not much more you can do. In the future, if you are running late, shoot an email off your phone to give the partner a heads-up. If you are on a tight schedule, you can always ask recruiting (or whomever is organizing the meeting) if there's any possibility of the meeting running over, and explain that you have [insert important FIRM obligation]. Missed meetings happen; the important thing is to communicate.

Another thing: I missed pretty much every recruiting event, sometimes with no notice, because of work. I know sometimes firms vary on this, but my general advice is to always prioritize your job duties (which includes meeting with partners) over SA events. If in doubt, as your associate mentor, if you have one.

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby PennBull » Tue May 28, 2013 12:30 am

Starting tomorrow.

Let's get it.

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BullShitWithBravado
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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby BullShitWithBravado » Tue May 28, 2013 12:40 am

tag

rad lulz
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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby rad lulz » Tue May 28, 2013 1:15 am

BullShitWithBravado wrote:tag

Cmon bro




Image

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homestyle28
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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby homestyle28 » Tue May 28, 2013 7:22 am

PennBull wrote:Starting tomorrow.

Let's get it.


Except Tomorrow is now today

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Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby TTRansfer » Tue May 28, 2013 8:14 am

homestyle28 wrote:
PennBull wrote:Starting tomorrow.

Let's get it.


Except Tomorrow is now today


Deep, bro. Deep.




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