S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
chrisbru
Posts: 4252
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:44 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby chrisbru » Thu May 16, 2013 9:19 am

RELIC wrote:
chrisbru wrote:3 days in and loving my firm. Not really a SA, per se, because it's a small (around 15 attorney) firm. There is another clerk besides me though, and we're both about the same grade range from the same school. I'm worried that 1) they won't be able to offer either of us or 2) I'm the one that doesn't get offered and the other clerk does. The worst part is that I like it a lot. If it sucked and I just wanted the job it would be a lot different.

Did they give you any kind of an indication about whether or not you should expect an offer?


It's definitely not an "expect an offer" situation. They basically said that they take on clerks to get to know them and potentially hire them, but it all depends on need. For example, a new associate just started in November this past year (2012) that clerked for them in fall 2010. They didn't have room for him when he graduated in May 2011, so he did something else for about a year after he passed the bar and then they brought him on when they needed help. They haven't had a clerk since him though, so I'm hoping it bodes well?

User avatar
PennBull
Posts: 15435
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby PennBull » Thu May 16, 2013 9:46 am

Checking in.

User avatar
homestyle28
Posts: 2314
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:48 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby homestyle28 » Thu May 16, 2013 10:00 am

PennBull wrote:Checking in.


+1...I like to think the anxiety is good and will drive the "triple-check everything" mantra.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273574
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 16, 2013 10:18 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:How does this work for 1Ls? I have a 1/2 summer big law SA this summer. Is there a good chance I will be offered a chance to come back 2L summer if I do well? The weird thing about that is I'm almost positive my SA will be done before spring grades come out.


I had a friend who a had a 1L SA with a big Texas firm and was not asked to come back because his grades dropped. Firms at 2L OCI basically viewed this like a no offer and wouldn't have anything to do with him, and he couldn't line up anything for his 2L summer. He ended up finding something for after graduation, but wasn't a fun experience.

Hutz_and_Goodman
Posts: 1413
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:42 am

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Thu May 16, 2013 11:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:How does this work for 1Ls? I have a 1/2 summer big law SA this summer. Is there a good chance I will be offered a chance to come back 2L summer if I do well? The weird thing about that is I'm almost positive my SA will be done before spring grades come out.


I had a friend who a had a 1L SA with a big Texas firm and was not asked to come back because his grades dropped. Firms at 2L OCI basically viewed this like a no offer and wouldn't have anything to do with him, and he couldn't line up anything for his 2L summer. He ended up finding something for after graduation, but wasn't a fun experience.



I searched the forum and I've heard other people say that they had a 1L SA and the firm never saw or asked for anything besides fall 1L grades (went back 2L summer and then got an offer). I'm trying to figure out how much to sweat spring grades and also how to allocate time between SA and law review write on.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby rad lulz » Thu May 16, 2013 11:35 am

chrisbru wrote:
RELIC wrote:
chrisbru wrote:3 days in and loving my firm. Not really a SA, per se, because it's a small (around 15 attorney) firm. There is another clerk besides me though, and we're both about the same grade range from the same school. I'm worried that 1) they won't be able to offer either of us or 2) I'm the one that doesn't get offered and the other clerk does. The worst part is that I like it a lot. If it sucked and I just wanted the job it would be a lot different.

Did they give you any kind of an indication about whether or not you should expect an offer?


It's definitely not an "expect an offer" situation. They basically said that they take on clerks to get to know them and potentially hire them, but it all depends on need. For example, a new associate just started in November this past year (2012) that clerked for them in fall 2010. They didn't have room for him when he graduated in May 2011, so he did something else for about a year after he passed the bar and then they brought him on when they needed help. They haven't had a clerk since him though, so I'm hoping it bodes well?

It doesn't bode anything

User avatar
Gecko of Doom
Posts: 415
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:32 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Gecko of Doom » Thu May 16, 2013 11:52 am

Tag. Starting Monday.

User avatar
bjsesq
TLS Poet Laureate
Posts: 13383
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:02 am

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby bjsesq » Thu May 16, 2013 11:57 am

ITT: people subject to whims convince themselves they can control shit.

User avatar
PennBull
Posts: 15435
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby PennBull » Thu May 16, 2013 11:59 am

bjsesq wrote:ITT: people subject to whims convince themselves they can control shit.


A false sense of security is better than nothing.

User avatar
RELIC
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:00 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby RELIC » Thu May 16, 2013 12:00 pm

bjsesq wrote:ITT: people subject to whims convince themselves they can control shit.

I think the general theme is that it is out of our control but it helps to have a strategy or a game plan so you don't worry all the time. I think worrying will probably come off pretty badly in terms of the social/fit part of this process.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby rad lulz » Thu May 16, 2013 12:02 pm

bjsesq wrote:ITT: people subject to whims convince themselves they can control shit.

180 sentiment

shock259
Posts: 1737
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:30 am

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby shock259 » Thu May 16, 2013 12:57 pm

Checkin in. Start on Monday.

User avatar
bjsesq
TLS Poet Laureate
Posts: 13383
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:02 am

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby bjsesq » Thu May 16, 2013 1:29 pm

RELIC wrote:
bjsesq wrote:ITT: people subject to whims convince themselves they can control shit.

I think the general theme is that it is out of our control but it helps to have a strategy or a game plan so you don't worry all the time. I think worrying will probably come off pretty badly in terms of the social/fit part of this process.


You will worry anyway. This is what you do. It's what we all do.

tsutsik
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby tsutsik » Thu May 16, 2013 1:38 pm

If the "no offer" is inevitable, I don't think you can avoid it.

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Blessedassurance » Thu May 16, 2013 1:41 pm

shock259 wrote:Checkin in. Start on Monday.


at least i get two chances (maybe 3?) to strike out

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 16, 2013 1:47 pm

bjsesq wrote:ITT: people subject to whims convince themselves they can control shit.


Yea, if your firm is doing poor, prepare thy anus, there probably isn't any control there.

But 90% of big law firms will offer everyone who they like and think does decent work. Aspie TLSers should be afraid.

User avatar
TTRansfer
Posts: 3796
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:08 am

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby TTRansfer » Thu May 16, 2013 11:41 pm

Going to read Curmudgeon's for a third time. Read it pre-law school, pre-1L SA. May as well read it now.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby IAFG » Fri May 17, 2013 8:32 am

TTRansfer wrote:Going to read Curmudgeon's for a third time. Read it pre-law school, pre-1L SA. May as well read it now.

I am about to read it. I read a few excerpts and I liked it.

User avatar
fundamentallybroken
Posts: 663
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:52 am

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby fundamentallybroken » Fri May 17, 2013 9:17 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:How does this work for 1Ls? I have a 1/2 summer big law SA this summer. Is there a good chance I will be offered a chance to come back 2L summer if I do well? The weird thing about that is I'm almost positive my SA will be done before spring grades come out.


I had a friend who a had a 1L SA with a big Texas firm and was not asked to come back because his grades dropped. Firms at 2L OCI basically viewed this like a no offer and wouldn't have anything to do with him, and he couldn't line up anything for his 2L summer. He ended up finding something for after graduation, but wasn't a fun experience.



I searched the forum and I've heard other people say that they had a 1L SA and the firm never saw or asked for anything besides fall 1L grades (went back 2L summer and then got an offer). I'm trying to figure out how much to sweat spring grades and also how to allocate time between SA and law review write on.


You need to worry about spring grades (even though you can't really control them at this point) in case you don't get an offer to go back for 2L summer. If your firm likes you, and invites you back, it's highly unlikely they'll ask for grades (except in casual conversation, such as "How'd you do after your fall semester?" - nothing formal.) But if you don't get an offer to go back, and your grades dropped, you may be screwed for 2L OCI. No one ever asked for more grades during my 1L SA, nor have they asked for any updates before I go back for 2L.

I might get shit for saying this, but most of the partners I worked with last summer told me law review is good if you need to pad your resume for 2L OCI, but doesn't do much to it if you already have a 1L SA. If you proved yourself enough to land a 1L SA, you either have the grades or work experience to get a job, and you don't need the extra stress and work that law review comes with. If you didn't get a 1L SA, don't have great grades or work experience, or didn't get offered back, then law review may be extremely helpful.

User avatar
Borg
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Borg » Fri May 17, 2013 9:30 am

Cavalier wrote:Assuming this is big law, you probably have nothing to worry about as long as you follow at least two of these three rules:

1) Do what you're told. The substance of your assignments probably won't matter much, but if you research the wrong issue, examine the wrong jurisdiction, etc., it'll be obvious that you screwed up.

2) Don't miss deadlines. Ever. None of your assignments are likely to be time sensitive, but if something is due soon, you must do whatever it takes to complete it on time.

3) Don't be too socially awkward. The bar isn't very high, but puking, making sexist jokes, or insulting a partner's second-tier law school to his face (this actually happened) should be avoided.

Seriously, most of the no-offers I've heard about have involved some combination of the above--it takes a lot to get no-offered. Just to be safe, anytime you get an assignment, make sure you are absolutely certain what you're to do, and then make sure you know (a) what jurisdiction it's in, (b) what the assigning attorney expects (an email, a memo, etc.), and (c) if the assigning attorney suggests a page range, whether that's single or double spaced. And before you turn in any assignment or send any email, proofread it multiple times. It's not uncommon for firms to make a binder of every summer associate's assignments for the hiring committee to review. They're not going to know whether you neglected to cite Judge Posner's dissent in your analysis of predatory pricing in the Seventh Circuit, but they will certainly see typos.


This is good advice. I'd also add this:

4) Every time you get an assignment, ask when the attorney would like it handed in before you leave the room. This will allow you to prioritize your work, and follow point 2.

User avatar
Lincoln
Posts: 1032
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:27 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Lincoln » Fri May 17, 2013 9:49 am

Cavalier wrote:Assuming this is big law, you probably have nothing to worry about as long as you follow at least two of these three rules:

1) Do what you're told. The substance of your assignments probably won't matter much, but if you research the wrong issue, examine the wrong jurisdiction, etc., it'll be obvious that you screwed up.

2) Don't miss deadlines. Ever. None of your assignments are likely to be time sensitive, but if something is due soon, you must do whatever it takes to complete it on time.

3) Don't be too socially awkward. The bar isn't very high, but puking, making sexist jokes, or insulting a partner's second-tier law school to his face (this actually happened) should be avoided.

Seriously, most of the no-offers I've heard about have involved some combination of the above--it takes a lot to get no-offered. Just to be safe, anytime you get an assignment, make sure you are absolutely certain what you're to do, and then make sure you know (a) what jurisdiction it's in, (b) what the assigning attorney expects (an email, a memo, etc.), and (c) if the assigning attorney suggests a page range, whether that's single or double spaced. And before you turn in any assignment or send any email, proofread it multiple times. It's not uncommon for firms to make a binder of every summer associate's assignments for the hiring committee to review. They're not going to know whether you neglected to cite Judge Posner's dissent in your analysis of predatory pricing in the Seventh Circuit, but they will certainly see typos.


To expand on this:

With respect to (2) handing stuff in on time, if you realize during an assignment that you cannot complete it on time (for a good reason), make sure you tell the assigning lawyer as soon as possible. Deadlines can usually be moved, but missing a deadline is among the worst things you can do.

One mistake a lot of SAs make is to do everything on their own. Many big law firms have hordes of administrative staff that are much better than you at making binders, using the faxes, filling out expense forms, etc. As far as the firm is concerned time spent doing that stuff is time they can't bill to clients. (Most SA time is never billed to clients; the point is to show that you will be a capable associate in a year.) As far as proofreading, I am a terrible proofreader of my own work, so I always had someone else proofread everything I worked on, short of an informal email. I made my administrative assistant (or, if it was a big document, the proofreading department) proofread and format every document to make sure it corresponded to the office standard.

Also, if you are asked your opinion, state it. You were hired to add value, not to be an automaton. Many times you will be the best informed on the particular issue you researched, and your opinion may be valuable. If someone more senior than you disagree, shut your trap and do what they say—don't argue! But if you are asked, don't say "I don't know" (or at least give reasons for why you don't know, if, say, the client didn't give enough information). No client wants to hear it, so if that's your informed opinion, you've just created work for someone else who has to develop one.

User avatar
dood
Posts: 1639
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:59 am

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby dood » Fri May 17, 2013 10:02 am

i cant wait to initiate u pledges.

User avatar
homestyle28
Posts: 2314
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:48 pm

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby homestyle28 » Fri May 17, 2013 10:11 am

dood wrote:i cant wait to initiate u pledges.


I prefer the term "tribute"

Anonymous User
Posts: 273574
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 17, 2013 12:34 pm

IAFG wrote:
TTRansfer wrote:Going to read Curmudgeon's for a third time. Read it pre-law school, pre-1L SA. May as well read it now.

I am about to read it. I read a few excerpts and I liked it.


My firm actually passed out the chapter on writing to all the SAs last year.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273574
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: S.S. Avoiding The Inevitable "No Offer"

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 17, 2013 12:37 pm

1L SA here. My firm expressly does not give offers to come back for 2L summer, i.e. we were told in our interviews and reminded upon offers that we should go somewhere else our 2L summer. Should this change anything about my SA and how I spend my summer?

I'm thinking the best way to use this SA to its best advantage (other than the experience) is to get connections/recommendations. Anything I'm missing?




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.