Austin v. Houston Forum

[prs362]

re: staying in Austin, I think it just has to do with preferences. Everyone looks for different things in life. I for one worry more about my career/making money than the activities I do or city in which I live.

Would you take Haynes Boone over one of the big 3 in Dallas? That is the hard part, how much emphasis to put on whether its the headquarters. Like I think Houston it would be best to go to Big 3/AK, Bracewell/Latham(even though they are not headquartered in Houston) than a LL or Haynes Boone houston office. But does this apply to Dallas? Is HB like the place to go there? Seems hard because the pay is so much lower than Weil, V&E, BB (all on NYC pay).

Also, where the heck is Lathams HQ? lol Cant figure out if its NYC or LA

I think there's a thread from last summer about Dallas based firms vs Houston satellites in Dallas. I think it really comes down to the practice group that you are looking for. VE is probably the best of the big three in Dallas (unless you want IP, then BB is the best of the big three for that). VE vs HB is tough, but I'd probably go with VE unless I wanted bankruptcy or appellate work. Culture should probably be factored in as well, since they are very different firms in that respect (but thats a personal calculation).

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... d&start=25

Go down to the post at 2:51.

[Anonymous User]

re: staying in Austin, I think it just has to do with preferences. Everyone looks for different things in life. I for one worry more about my career/making money than the activities I do or city in which I live.

Would you take Haynes Boone over one of the big 3 in Dallas? That is the hard part, how much emphasis to put on whether its the headquarters. Like I think Houston it would be best to go to Big 3/AK, Bracewell/Latham(even though they are not headquartered in Houston) than a LL or Haynes Boone houston office. But does this apply to Dallas? Is HB like the place to go there? Seems hard because the pay is so much lower than Weil, V&E, BB (all on NYC pay).

Also, where the heck is Lathams HQ? lol Cant figure out if its NYC or LA

I think there's a thread from last summer about Dallas based firms vs Houston satellites in Dallas. I think it really comes down to the practice group that you are looking for. VE is probably the best of the big three in Dallas (unless you want IP, then BB is the best of the big three for that). VE vs HB is tough, but I'd probably go with VE unless I wanted bankruptcy or appellate work. Culture should probably be factored in as well, since they are very different firms in that respect (but thats a personal calculation).

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... d&start=25

Go down to the post at 2:51.

Not surprisingly, things have really changed in the Dallas legal market in the past 6 months to a year.

For example, HB's bankruptcy group is being gutted - I would definitely not go there if you wanted to do bankruptcy. Its likely you'll either get no offered or forced into another group (they haven't hired a bankruptcy associate in about 3 years in Dallas I believe).

Also, the group of HB partners leaving for Akin changes the calculations dramatically - much the same way that the VE departures for Gibson did.

If anyone has specific questions about the Dallas market, let me know and I can pm you.

[cim_can]

Also, where the heck is Lathams HQ? lol Cant figure out if its NYC or LA

Latham doesn't have a single HQ; its largest office is NY and firm management is spread all over.

[Anonymous User]

re: staying in Austin, I think it just has to do with preferences. Everyone looks for different things in life. I for one worry more about my career/making money than the activities I do or city in which I live.

Would you take Haynes Boone over one of the big 3 in Dallas? That is the hard part, how much emphasis to put on whether its the headquarters. Like I think Houston it would be best to go to Big 3/AK, Bracewell/Latham(even though they are not headquartered in Houston) than a LL or Haynes Boone houston office. But does this apply to Dallas? Is HB like the place to go there? Seems hard because the pay is so much lower than Weil, V&E, BB (all on NYC pay).

Also, where the heck is Lathams HQ? lol Cant figure out if its NYC or LA

I think there's a thread from last summer about Dallas based firms vs Houston satellites in Dallas. I think it really comes down to the practice group that you are looking for. VE is probably the best of the big three in Dallas (unless you want IP, then BB is the best of the big three for that). VE vs HB is tough, but I'd probably go with VE unless I wanted bankruptcy or appellate work. Culture should probably be factored in as well, since they are very different firms in that respect (but thats a personal calculation).

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... d&start=25

Go down to the post at 2:51.

Not surprisingly, things have really changed in the Dallas legal market in the past 6 months to a year.

For example, HB's bankruptcy group is being gutted - I would definitely not go there if you wanted to do bankruptcy. Its likely you'll either get no offered or forced into another group (they haven't hired a bankruptcy associate in about 3 years in Dallas I believe).

Also, the group of HB partners leaving for Akin changes the calculations dramatically - much the same way that the VE departures for Gibson did.

If anyone has specific questions about the Dallas market, let me know and I can pm you.

Just in general, what about the general corporate/M&A/Securities group there? I chose to do HB fast track because I had heard they were the go to shop in Dallas if you wanted realistic chance of making partner. Not the case anymore?

[Anonymous User]

Just in general, what about the general corporate/M&A/Securities group there? I chose to do HB fast track because I had heard they were the go to shop in Dallas if you wanted realistic chance of making partner. Not the case anymore?

Still one of the best bets for making partner in Dallas.

But the Corporate group was hit pretty hard by the departure of 6 people (3 partners and 3 associates) for Akin. The white collar/lit group saw 5 people leave (4 partners and 1 associate).

[Anonymous User]

Just in general, what about the general corporate/M&A/Securities group there? I chose to do HB fast track because I had heard they were the go to shop in Dallas if you wanted realistic chance of making partner. Not the case anymore?

Still one of the best bets for making partner in Dallas.

But the Corporate group was hit pretty hard by the departure of 6 people (3 partners and 3 associates) for Akin. The white collar/lit group saw 5 people leave (4 partners and 1 associate).

I know an incoming HB summer. s/he will be working in lit and bankruptcy. Are these unsafe groups? Should this person try to switch out of bankruptcy into something else?

I heard a rumor that a few years ago, HB no-offered everyone that summered in the corporate group, simply because corporate was slow at the time. Is that true? Is that indicative of how they'll treat bankruptcy summers?

[Anonymous User]

Just in general, what about the general corporate/M&A/Securities group there? I chose to do HB fast track because I had heard they were the go to shop in Dallas if you wanted realistic chance of making partner. Not the case anymore?

Still one of the best bets for making partner in Dallas.

But the Corporate group was hit pretty hard by the departure of 6 people (3 partners and 3 associates) for Akin. The white collar/lit group saw 5 people leave (4 partners and 1 associate).

I know an incoming HB summer. s/he will be working in lit and bankruptcy. Are these unsafe groups? Should this person try to switch out of bankruptcy into something else?

I heard a rumor that a few years ago, HB no-offered everyone that summered in the corporate group, simply because corporate was slow at the time. Is that true? Is that indicative of how they'll treat bankruptcy summers?

Lit will make offers for sure. She should absolutely try to get out of the bankruptcy group. They haven't had work in years, just fired 3 partners, and only have 2 associates left in Dallas.

[Anonymous User]

Just in general, what about the general corporate/M&A/Securities group there? I chose to do HB fast track because I had heard they were the go to shop in Dallas if you wanted realistic chance of making partner. Not the case anymore?

Still one of the best bets for making partner in Dallas.

But the Corporate group was hit pretty hard by the departure of 6 people (3 partners and 3 associates) for Akin. The white collar/lit group saw 5 people leave (4 partners and 1 associate).

I know an incoming HB summer. s/he will be working in lit and bankruptcy. Are these unsafe groups? Should this person try to switch out of bankruptcy into something else?

I heard a rumor that a few years ago, HB no-offered everyone that summered in the corporate group, simply because corporate was slow at the time. Is that true? Is that indicative of how they'll treat bankruptcy summers?

HB has never no offered everyone that was in corporate. However, just like other firms, in slow years, the slower groups are going to make the fewest offers. And bankruptcy has been slow in Texas for many many years at all firms.

[wired]

If anyone has specific questions about the Dallas market, let me know and I can pm you.

Would love a PM. Thanks.

[acr035678]

If anyone has specific questions about the Dallas market, let me know and I can pm you.

Would love a PM. Thanks.

Ditto. Thanks!

[005618502]

Here is a question: Do people who have some idea think Houston or Dallas is better in terms of "exit option" whether you are looking to go in house for corporate or move to another firm for litigation? Houston is bigger but it seems Dallas has more F500 companies....so maybe more "high paying" in house positions?

Also, tried to look online at Dell's in-house counsel. Looks like it pays over 200k a year?!? Is this really high for Texas in house?

[El Principe]

If anyone has specific questions about the Dallas market, let me know and I can pm you.

Por Favor!

Thanks in advance.

[2014utLaw]

OP: please message me if you want an actual answer. I am splitting Austin/Houston.

The short answer is that given your grades, you will have your pick of Houston, but Austin will be iffy.

[005618502]

OP: please message me if you want an actual answer. I am splitting Austin/Houston.

The short answer is that given your grades, you will have your pick of Houston, but Austin will be iffy.

Hmmm I dont know about this. Top 15% from UVA... I think he will be able to get into Austin (especially since he said he has connections).

The issue here is not which is "harder" to get. Yes, Austin is harder no one would say any different. But this isnt about hard, its about what is best for his career. In Austin the reason its competitive is because it is a city that everyone in Texas wants to live in and they have a decent school in the city. I dont think it is because the legal market is bustling or there are great exit options...

[Anonymous User]

OP: please message me if you want an actual answer. I am splitting Austin/Houston.

The short answer is that given your grades, you will have your pick of Houston, but Austin will be iffy.

Hmmm I dont know about this. Top 15% from UVA... I think he will be able to get into Austin (especially since he said he has connections).

The issue here is not which is "harder" to get. Yes, Austin is harder no one would say any different. But this isnt about hard, its about what is best for his career. In Austin the reason its competitive is because it is a city that everyone in Texas wants to live in and they have a decent school in the city. I dont think it is because the legal market is bustling or there are great exit options...

You continue to not get that "career" does not necessarily = salary. Or perhaps it does, to you. And maybe it does to OP. But many people (me included; this is obviously the anonymous from earlier in the thread) judge utility more holistically than "what the market will pay me." Some people want to do big energy M&A, MLPs, etc. Of course, Houston is where it's at for that. Some people would prefer to work in a slightly more genteel environment (Austin is that, in part because it is smaller and clients tend to be more loyal as they tend to work in smaller businesses). Moreover, your long-term success will also largely depend on how well you fit in somewhere, and how happy you are. If OP (and I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case) would be happier living in Austin than in Houston, I'm willing to bet he will be a better lawyer in Austin than in Houston. And that plays into OPs career prospects, long-term.

I would actually like OP to clarify a bit on this point, as it seems silly to talk about someone's career prospects without knowing what makes them tick. If it turns out that OPs primary drive is to see more 0s in the bank account, I think Houston might be a better choice (though this may still not be true if his connections really run that deep in Austin in the ways that are important for building a legal practice). But if OP isn't of that mindset, I think that that is something us would-be advice givers need to know.

[Anonymous User]

OP: please message me if you want an actual answer. I am splitting Austin/Houston.

The short answer is that given your grades, you will have your pick of Houston, but Austin will be iffy.

Hmmm I dont know about this. Top 15% from UVA... I think he will be able to get into Austin (especially since he said he has connections).

The issue here is not which is "harder" to get. Yes, Austin is harder no one would say any different. But this isnt about hard, its about what is best for his career. In Austin the reason its competitive is because it is a city that everyone in Texas wants to live in and they have a decent school in the city. I dont think it is because the legal market is bustling or there are great exit options...

You continue to not get that "career" does not necessarily = salary. Or perhaps it does, to you. And maybe it does to OP. But many people (me included; this is obviously the anonymous from earlier in the thread) judge utility more holistically than "what the market will pay me." Some people want to do big energy M&A, MLPs, etc. Of course, Houston is where it's at for that. Some people would prefer to work in a slightly more genteel environment (Austin is that, in part because it is smaller and clients tend to be more loyal as they tend to work in smaller businesses). Moreover, your long-term success will also largely depend on how well you fit in somewhere, and how happy you are. If OP (and I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case) would be happier living in Austin than in Houston, I'm willing to bet he will be a better lawyer in Austin than in Houston. And that plays into OPs career prospects, long-term.

I would actually like OP to clarify a bit on this point, as it seems silly to talk about someone's career prospects without knowing what makes them tick. If it turns out that OPs primary drive is to see more 0s in the bank account, I think Houston might be a better choice (though this may still not be true if his connections really run that deep in Austin in the ways that are important for building a legal practice). But if OP isn't of that mindset, I think that that is something us would-be advice givers need to know.

OP here. Sorry about the delay, last final today. I would say that money definitely matters to me, it is a big motivator. BUT I don't care about the difference between making 500k and a million or w/e. I really want to go somewhere that I have a chance to make partner, even if they make a little less. If I could make over 250k my whole career, I would be more than satisfied on that front.

I have never lived in Houston. Lived in Austin for a long time. Like the Austin weather and easy DT living better than Htown but other than that I don't know. I guess I worry that partner chances are lower in Austin. Also, I am somewhat of a workaholic, so I want to make sure I have enough work to work as much as I want.

[Anonymous User]

Based on my own conversations with lawyers in both markets, Austin is a much tougher market to succeed in. There's less work, fewer and smaller clients, and a very well-developed, competitive mid-tier bar (JW/GDHM-type firms) that is sophisticated enough to do work for mid-sized companies at lower rates than big 3 etc can afford to charge. And even in Austin BigLaw, rates and hours billed are a lot lower than in Houston. The sense I got was that Austin offices of the big 3 aren't really regarded as all that important within the firms (this could be wrong-- I obviously didn't explicitly ask, just an impressionistic sense).

That said, the folks I talked to indicated that it's certainly *possible* for a young lawyer to make it in the Austin market. It's just harder. Basically just a matter of how highly you value living in Austin versus marginally better career prospects.

Obviously this is less true if you are wanting to do IP, public law, or a few specific corporate practices (venture finance etc.) And conversely it's probably MORE true if you're wanting to do general litigation or big-ticket corporate.

[Anonymous User]

Based on my own conversations with lawyers in both markets, Austin is a much tougher market to succeed in. There's less work, fewer and smaller clients, and a very well-developed, competitive mid-tier bar (JW/GDHM-type firms) that is sophisticated enough to do work for mid-sized companies at lower rates than big 3 etc can afford to charge. And even in Austin BigLaw, rates and hours billed are a lot lower than in Houston. The sense I got was that Austin offices of the big 3 aren't really regarded as all that important within the firms (this could be wrong-- I obviously didn't explicitly ask, just an impressionistic sense).

That said, the folks I talked to indicated that it's certainly *possible* for a young lawyer to make it in the Austin market. It's just harder. Basically just a matter of how highly you value living in Austin versus marginally better career prospects.

Obviously this is less true if you are wanting to do IP, public law, or a few specific corporate practices (venture finance etc.) And conversely it's probably MORE true if you're wanting to do general litigation or big-ticket corporate.

Completely agreed on all fronts. Especially when it comes to the Austin offices of BigTex firms. If I were going to start in Austin, the only big firms I would really consider would be V&E, Andrews Kurth or Wilson Sonsini, but I think your overall chances of success might be better at a Jackson Walker or a Winstead.

[peter2009]

I know an incoming HB summer. s/he will be working in lit and bankruptcy. Are these unsafe groups? Should this person try to switch out of bankruptcy into something else?

I heard a rumor that a few years ago, HB no-offered everyone that summered in the corporate group, simply because corporate was slow at the time. Is that true? Is that indicative of how they'll treat bankruptcy summers?[/quote]

Lit will make offers for sure. She should absolutely try to get out of the bankruptcy group. They haven't had work in years, just fired 3 partners, and only have 2 associates left in Dallas.[/quote]

I'm interested in a PM as well.