Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

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5ky
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 5ky » Wed May 08, 2013 6:46 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
SportsFan wrote:From what I've seen, I think the grade distributions and pre-select system both combine to really hurt UVA. ITE, IMO they could still have really strong placement numbers with one of those things, but both? No way. Do you know how many OCI interviews people get? Career services at Penn told us the average is 15-18.


What do you mean grade distribution? There is a 3.3 curve....just like most places.


Something about how UVA's curve is a bit flatter, so there are more bad grades. FWIW, I don't buy this at all. There's like 5-10 total C+s/Cs given for all of the 1L classes. Sure, it's a killer to get one, but if you are getting a C+ or C, I'm guessing your other grades are pretty poor. This also allows the professor to give slightly more As/A-s, which correspondingly helps some folks squeak above median.

Also, I feel like half the people ITT are 1Ls

For OGI back in summer of 2011 (c/o 2013), the average number of interviews was 16.4, with 70% of students having 15 or more.
Last edited by 5ky on Wed May 08, 2013 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 pm

One thing that deflates UVA grades at graduation is that the 3.3 curve applies throughout law school. I understand that at other law schools, the curve slackens in 2L and 3L Year.

That being said, for 2L OCI, only your 1L grades matter, so it makes no difference as far as OCI goes.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Law Sauce » Wed May 08, 2013 9:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:One thing that deflates UVA grades at graduation is that the 3.3 curve applies throughout law school. I understand that at other law schools, the curve slackens in 2L and 3L Year.

That being said, for 2L OCI, only your 1L grades matter, so it makes no difference as far as OCI goes.


This is no longer exactly true. For any size class, UVA now allows professors to curve to the mean of the class of use 3.3 mean (i.e. higher means can be used if the whole class' incoming meaning is higher).

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 005618502 » Wed May 08, 2013 9:42 pm

5ky wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
SportsFan wrote:From what I've seen, I think the grade distributions and pre-select system both combine to really hurt UVA. ITE, IMO they could still have really strong placement numbers with one of those things, but both? No way. Do you know how many OCI interviews people get? Career services at Penn told us the average is 15-18.


What do you mean grade distribution? There is a 3.3 curve....just like most places.


Something about how UVA's curve is a bit flatter, so there are more bad grades. FWIW, I don't buy this at all. There's like 5-10 total C+s/Cs given for all of the 1L classes. Sure, it's a killer to get one, but if you are getting a C+ or C, I'm guessing your other grades are pretty poor. This also allows the professor to give slightly more As/A-s, which correspondingly helps some folks squeak above median.

Also, I feel like half the people ITT are 1Ls

For OGI back in summer of 2011 (c/o 2013), the average number of interviews was 16.4, with 70% of students having 15 or more.


Yeah you are right on both counts. I like classes that are "flatter" my only median grade came in a class that was like 70% B+ (I think it was like 22 or 24 out of 30). I still wonder if I hadnt had that if I coulda got an A- which would have put me solidly grading onto law review.

average is 15+ ... dang (but I guess thats not to crazy if its just initial interviews and not CBs

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 08, 2013 10:07 pm

Rising 3L MVP here.

Was towards the bottom of class 1L year, between 3.1 and 3.15. Ended up with 5+ V100 offers in major markets. Non-URM, just a couple years work experience. Nothing extraordinary.

Moral of the story: grades matter but it isn't a "input X get out Y" calculus. Talk of dropping out given where you're at is way too premature. Give me a throwaway email address and I'll be happy to email thoughts/strategy if you want to discuss this further.

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby quakeroats » Wed May 08, 2013 10:49 pm

Desert Fox wrote:But the firms aren't sitting there thinking 50%UMich=65%UPenn. Why would they? They are peer schools with comparable school talent.


You right in a sense. Most big firms don't think Penn and Michigan are any different. They are comparable schools, and the students from Penn are going to be almost identical to those at Michigan and Virginia. But what firms think in the abstract doesn't line up with the hiring decisions they make. Here's part of why:

Penn has several things going for it that Michigan and Virginia don't. First, it's small. This matters a lot in our economy, particularly when there's often pressure to hire at least a student or two from the alma mater of partners who care. Having essentially half the students of MV, P gets to place more token students. Second, Penn has a great location and a history of placing tons of students in New York. This one's been covered pretty well here, so I'll move on. Third, Penn's law review selection process is structured so that there's less overlap with the highest GPAs in the class. Expanding the top helps out the rest.

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby quakeroats » Wed May 08, 2013 11:00 pm

5ky wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
SportsFan wrote:From what I've seen, I think the grade distributions and pre-select system both combine to really hurt UVA. ITE, IMO they could still have really strong placement numbers with one of those things, but both? No way. Do you know how many OCI interviews people get? Career services at Penn told us the average is 15-18.


What do you mean grade distribution? There is a 3.3 curve....just like most places.


Something about how UVA's curve is a bit flatter, so there are more bad grades. FWIW, I don't buy this at all. There's like 5-10 total C+s/Cs given for all of the 1L classes. Sure, it's a killer to get one, but if you are getting a C+ or C, I'm guessing your other grades are pretty poor. This also allows the professor to give slightly more As/A-s, which correspondingly helps some folks squeak above median.

Also, I feel like half the people ITT are 1Ls

For OGI back in summer of 2011 (c/o 2013), the average number of interviews was 16.4, with 70% of students having 15 or more.


I suspect this is what most hiring partners think too, and it allows schools that don't bunch everyone up on the median to take advantage (Northwestern's particularly good at this). Focusing on just one measure of central tendency allows for more game playing than you might think. For example, the median of both of the following is 3.3.

3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 3.3, 4.0, 4.0, 4.0, 4.0, 4.0

2.9, 2.9, 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, 3.6, 3.7, 4.0

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5ky
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 5ky » Wed May 08, 2013 11:04 pm

At least at UVA, classes are curved to a mean, not a median, but the general point still stands.

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 08, 2013 11:56 pm

SportsFan wrote:From what I've seen, I think the grade distributions and pre-select system both combine to really hurt UVA. ITE, IMO they could still have really strong placement numbers with one of those things, but both? No way. Do you know how many OCI interviews people get? Career services at Penn told us the average is 15-18.


I had 18 interviews with a 3.307 at V (9 callbacks...so they weren't just fuck'n wit me)

also 5 offers. it can be done people.

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5ky
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 5ky » Thu May 09, 2013 12:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
SportsFan wrote:From what I've seen, I think the grade distributions and pre-select system both combine to really hurt UVA. ITE, IMO they could still have really strong placement numbers with one of those things, but both? No way. Do you know how many OCI interviews people get? Career services at Penn told us the average is 15-18.


I had 18 interviews with a 3.307 at V (9 callbacks...so they weren't just fuck'n wit me)

also 5 offers. it can be done people.


And yeah, I think most people just don't understand how the system at UVA works. It's part preselect and part lottery. Median and below kids don't get much after the first round (preselect), but they ultimately end up with a standard number of interviews after the trickle-down (because you are maxed out on the number of interviews you can keep, so the top of the class, who might end up with 30-40 preselects, have to cut down to 20-25) + lottery.

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu May 09, 2013 12:33 am

Why are you guys even talking about Virginia, OP said s/he goes to Michigan.

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 005618502 » Thu May 09, 2013 12:35 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Why are you guys even talking about Virginia, OP said s/he goes to Michigan.


Just pretend there is a M instead of V. Their systems might be slightly different, but career prospects are going to be mostly the same

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5ky
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 5ky » Thu May 09, 2013 12:35 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Why are you guys even talking about Virginia, OP said s/he goes to Michigan.


Well, it's helpful for other people to understand how things work. OP's concern has long been answered at this point. Considering dropping out before 1L spring grades and having a crack at OCI would be silly, which has been communicated to OP.

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby bk1 » Thu May 09, 2013 12:57 am

5ky wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Why are you guys even talking about Virginia, OP said s/he goes to Michigan.


Well, it's helpful for other people to understand how things work. OP's concern has long been answered at this point. Considering dropping out before 1L spring grades and having a crack at OCI would be silly, which has been communicated to OP.

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable (the crack at OCI comes at the cost of over 30,000 dollars), but I do think at this point it's probably worth it to do the 3rd semester if you've already done 2.

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby gnuwheels » Thu May 09, 2013 11:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:Rising 3L MVP here.

Was towards the bottom of class 1L year, between 3.1 and 3.15. Ended up with 5+ V100 offers in major markets. Non-URM, just a couple years work experience. Nothing extraordinary.

Moral of the story: grades matter but it isn't a "input X get out Y" calculus. Talk of dropping out given where you're at is way too premature. Give me a throwaway email address and I'll be happy to email thoughts/strategy if you want to discuss this further.


I thought median was 3.2? How is a 3.15 bottom of the class? weren't you just below median? OP is saying something more along the lines of 3.0 which seems a lot different

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5ky
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 5ky » Thu May 09, 2013 1:13 pm

gnuwheels wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Rising 3L MVP here.

Was towards the bottom of class 1L year, between 3.1 and 3.15. Ended up with 5+ V100 offers in major markets. Non-URM, just a couple years work experience. Nothing extraordinary.

Moral of the story: grades matter but it isn't a "input X get out Y" calculus. Talk of dropping out given where you're at is way too premature. Give me a throwaway email address and I'll be happy to email thoughts/strategy if you want to discuss this further.


I thought median was 3.2? How is a 3.15 bottom of the class? weren't you just below median? OP is saying something more along the lines of 3.0 which seems a lot different


I'm assuming he/she didn't go to Michigan, like the OP. (At UVA, ~3.15 would be about top 70%, while 3.0 would be around the bottom 10-15%)

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 09, 2013 9:34 pm

Anon with 3.1 - 3.15 here.

Gnuwheels, I know my school's median. I was probably around bottom 30% to bottom 20%. Clearly bottom 1/3 which is where OP is at.

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 09042014 » Fri May 10, 2013 2:23 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:I think different schools' lottery/pre-select systems play a part, but I don't think firms view MVP or for that matter BDNC people any differently on paper. Grade distributions might play a factor too.


Other than UVA they are all the same. And I bet UVA's hurts it a bit.

Re: grade distributions: It seems like a lot of firms figure it out, but some firms were still confused about rancid NLaw grade inflation.


Yeah, I think UVA's system helps those in the top 25% while hurting those at the bottom


People in the top 25% don't need help. Them getting 20 callbacks instead of 10 isn't twice as good, it's marginally better. It really only helps the rare top 25% who is so awkward/unlikeable that they can't close callbacks very easily.

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5ky
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 5ky » Fri May 10, 2013 2:33 pm

Desert Fox wrote:People in the top 25% don't need help. Them getting 20 callbacks instead of 10 isn't twice as good, it's marginally better. It really only helps the rare top 25% who is so awkward/unlikeable that they can't close callbacks very easily.


Yeah, I think that was his point. But because they cap the number of interviews you can actually keep, it doesn't really benefit them too much outside of having a bit more control of picking which firms they want to interview with.

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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Antrim » Fri May 10, 2013 2:35 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:I think different schools' lottery/pre-select systems play a part, but I don't think firms view MVP or for that matter BDNC people any differently on paper. Grade distributions might play a factor too.


Other than UVA they are all the same. And I bet UVA's hurts it a bit.

Re: grade distributions: It seems like a lot of firms figure it out, but some firms were still confused about rancid NLaw grade inflation.


Yeah, I think UVA's system helps those in the top 25% while hurting those at the bottom


People in the top 25% don't need help. Them getting 20 callbacks instead of 10 isn't twice as good, it's marginally better. It really only helps the rare top 25% who is so awkward/unlikeable that they can't close callbacks very easily.


Dunno about the rareness, I know a handful of great grades aspies that struckout with multiple callbacks cause they couldn't fake normalness for 4 hours




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