Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

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Nynaeve
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Nynaeve » Tue May 07, 2013 11:18 am

Questions122 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If you're at M though you're probably in trouble. I was in a similar place and career services told me pretty straight Biglaw was unlikely. But might as well do OCI, can't hurt. Maybe firms will dig deeper in the class this year


May I ask what you plan on doing career wise? Would getting a midlaw job or a nonprofit job be out of reach?

Post-grad, entry-level nonprofit jobs are more competitive than biglaw.

However, to OP, your grades are not prohibitively poor. You have a decent shot at biglaw at OCI.

Mavraides87
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Mavraides87 » Tue May 07, 2013 11:22 am

What would your net worth be if you completed? 100k? I'd probably continue with the program

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 07, 2013 1:34 pm

Questions122 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If you're at M though you're probably in trouble. I was in a similar place and career services told me pretty straight Biglaw was unlikely. But might as well do OCI, can't hurt. Maybe firms will dig deeper in the class this year


May I ask what you plan on doing career wise? Would getting a midlaw job or a nonprofit job be out of reach?


Not sure yet but as crazy as it might sound I'm not dropping out. But seriously, knowing your school makes all the difference here. If you're at PVB then you should be fine but at M it's a different story and you might want to think harder about the money you're spending and your options. Still, do OCI.

005618502
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 005618502 » Tue May 07, 2013 2:09 pm

If you have straight Bs, you are lower than 60-70%... If you got a mix of grades, I would stick it out and hope you did better this semester. Might as well give OCI a shot and see where it leads

Questions122
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Questions122 » Tue May 07, 2013 9:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Questions122 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If you're at M though you're probably in trouble. I was in a similar place and career services told me pretty straight Biglaw was unlikely. But might as well do OCI, can't hurt. Maybe firms will dig deeper in the class this year


May I ask what you plan on doing career wise? Would getting a midlaw job or a nonprofit job be out of reach?


Not sure yet but as crazy as it might sound I'm not dropping out. But seriously, knowing your school makes all the difference here. If you're at PVB then you should be fine but at M it's a different story and you might want to think harder about the money you're spending and your options. Still, do OCI.


Yeah, I'm at M. I guess I'm in trouble then.

09042014
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 09042014 » Tue May 07, 2013 9:46 pm

LOL if you all really think firms are sitting there thinking "Well that 70%kid is at UVA HIRE HIM, oh wait Michigan, DING FRIENDO"

pastapplicant
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby pastapplicant » Tue May 07, 2013 9:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:LOL if you all really think firms are sitting there thinking "Well that 70%kid is at UVA HIRE HIM, oh wait Michigan, DING FRIENDO"


this dude knows what he is talking about. i think penn is the only place out of MVPB where firms MIGHT think along those lines.

005618502
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 005618502 » Tue May 07, 2013 10:40 pm

pastapplicant wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:LOL if you all really think firms are sitting there thinking "Well that 70%kid is at UVA HIRE HIM, oh wait Michigan, DING FRIENDO"


this dude knows what he is talking about. i think penn is the only place out of MVPB where firms MIGHT think along those lines.


Wrong. Firms dont think that Penn is a step above UVA along those lines, its just that their interview process is less pre-select. If a firm will go that low at one of the 3 they will do it at both. Its more about the person there than the school/rank

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 07, 2013 10:42 pm

Questions122 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Questions122 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If you're at M though you're probably in trouble. I was in a similar place and career services told me pretty straight Biglaw was unlikely. But might as well do OCI, can't hurt. Maybe firms will dig deeper in the class this year


May I ask what you plan on doing career wise? Would getting a midlaw job or a nonprofit job be out of reach?


Not sure yet but as crazy as it might sound I'm not dropping out. But seriously, knowing your school makes all the difference here. If you're at PVB then you should be fine but at M it's a different story and you might want to think harder about the money you're spending and your options. Still, do OCI.


Yeah, I'm at M. I guess I'm in trouble then.


You're not in trouble [yet] because (a) you don't even have your grades yet, stay optimistic, and (b) you're gonna do OCI and see what happens. Just because its not the best place to be in doesn't mean all hope is lost.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 07, 2013 10:44 pm

Desert Fox wrote:LOL if you all really think firms are sitting there thinking "Well that 70%kid is at UVA HIRE HIM, oh wait Michigan, DING FRIENDO"


Ok then so how/why are such a higher percentage of students at P getting biglaw jobs?

pastapplicant
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby pastapplicant » Wed May 08, 2013 12:25 am

AssumptionRequired wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:LOL if you all really think firms are sitting there thinking "Well that 70%kid is at UVA HIRE HIM, oh wait Michigan, DING FRIENDO"


this dude knows what he is talking about. i think penn is the only place out of MVPB where firms MIGHT think along those lines.


Wrong. Firms dont think that Penn is a step above UVA along those lines, its just that their interview process is less pre-select. If a firm will go that low at one of the 3 they will do it at both. Its more about the person there than the school/rank


i said MIGHT and based on what i've seen from NY firms at least, they view Penn as a small step above UVA especially right now.

09042014
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 08, 2013 12:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:LOL if you all really think firms are sitting there thinking "Well that 70%kid is at UVA HIRE HIM, oh wait Michigan, DING FRIENDO"


Ok then so how/why are such a higher percentage of students at P getting biglaw jobs?


Primarily because of self selection, and then because of some local favoritism.

For example, UVA classes goes to DC more than NYC. And Penn's goes to NYC more than DC. And Michigan is pretty widespread, but only 20% go to NYC, 12% go to Illinois and another 12% Michigan.

It's just easier to get a job at Milbank NYC, than Patton Boggs DC, Jenner Block Chicago or ShitLaw's Michigan office. Penn students would get dinged applying to Jenner Chicago en masse. And Michigan students would do better if they were applying at Milbank or Cadwalder NYC in large numbers.

There may some favoritism at play, but the self selection makes it really hard to compare.

But the firms aren't sitting there thinking 50%UMich=65%UPenn. Why would they? They are peer schools with comparable school talent.

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bowser
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby bowser » Wed May 08, 2013 1:54 am

Desert Fox wrote:Primarily because of self selection, and then because of some local favoritism.

For example, UVA classes goes to DC more than NYC. And Penn's goes to NYC more than DC. And Michigan is pretty widespread, but only 20% go to NYC, 12% go to Illinois and another 12% Michigan.

It's just easier to get a job at Milbank NYC, than Patton Boggs DC, Jenner Block Chicago or ShitLaw's Michigan office. Penn students would get dinged applying to Jenner Chicago en masse. And Michigan students would do better if they were applying at Milbank or Cadwalder NYC in large numbers.

There may some favoritism at play, but the self selection makes it really hard to compare.

But the firms aren't sitting there thinking 50%UMich=65%UPenn. Why would they? They are peer schools with comparable school talent.




1. Do you think law students, esp. T14 ones, as a rule are stubborn about geographic/practice preferences to the point that generally the economy doesn't deter them from going after what they want? (So Mich students, even knowing NYC would be easier, choose to bid California or Chicago)

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Tom Joad
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Tom Joad » Wed May 08, 2013 2:03 am

I think different schools' lottery/pre-select systems play a part, but I don't think firms view MVP or for that matter BDNC people any differently on paper. Grade distributions might play a factor too.

09042014
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 08, 2013 2:46 am

bowser wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Primarily because of self selection, and then because of some local favoritism.

For example, UVA classes goes to DC more than NYC. And Penn's goes to NYC more than DC. And Michigan is pretty widespread, but only 20% go to NYC, 12% go to Illinois and another 12% Michigan.

It's just easier to get a job at Milbank NYC, than Patton Boggs DC, Jenner Block Chicago or ShitLaw's Michigan office. Penn students would get dinged applying to Jenner Chicago en masse. And Michigan students would do better if they were applying at Milbank or Cadwalder NYC in large numbers.

There may some favoritism at play, but the self selection makes it really hard to compare.

But the firms aren't sitting there thinking 50%UMich=65%UPenn. Why would they? They are peer schools with comparable school talent.




1. Do you think law students, esp. T14 ones, as a rule are stubborn about geographic/practice preferences to the point that generally the economy doesn't deter them from going after what they want? (So Mich students, even knowing NYC would be easier, choose to bid California or Chicago)


You assume they 1) know this and either 2) think they are going to strike out in their home market or 3) think the increase chance is worth the risk of having to live in NYShitty.

But yea, a lot of people are pretty stubborn. I know a couple people who went down with the ship despite actually knowing.

Nobody ever told my classmates that NYC is easier.

It's easier said than done. The first time I ever went to NYC was on a callback. It wasn't realistic for me to go all in on a city I never even been to.
Last edited by 09042014 on Wed May 08, 2013 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 08, 2013 2:48 am

Tom Joad wrote:I think different schools' lottery/pre-select systems play a part, but I don't think firms view MVP or for that matter BDNC people any differently on paper. Grade distributions might play a factor too.


Other than UVA they are all the same. And I bet UVA's hurts it a bit.

Re: grade distributions: It seems like a lot of firms figure it out, but some firms were still confused about rancid NLaw grade inflation.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 08, 2013 9:42 am

Firm favoritism plays a huge part too. For instance, at my NYC firm, we had a ton of NYU SA's at my firm (significantly more than CLS) and there are (surprise!) a ton of NYU grads at the firm.

OP: you know the job search is going to be a huge hustle/uphill battle. You're not totally out of a firm job, but you have to do an insane amount of research, network, be willing to work (and be able to sell that you're willing to work) anywhere, exploit your market ties, personal ties, background, etc.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Law Sauce » Wed May 08, 2013 10:14 am

OP, so you know you are not in the best possible position, but you are still in the game. No reason you can't end up with an optimal outcome still. hustle at OCI, only dropout if you are unemployed in November.

*Think hard about how to sell your experience
*Get an additional resume point by doing interesting work this summer, add in some pro bono if you can to fill it out even more
*Pre-OCI Research the firms that you have the best shot at
*Pre-OCI Email NYC/Chicago/and any other city where you have any sort of ties at all targeting firms that do the financial services type work that you may be most qualified for
*Pre-OCI Go to those cities and offer times when you can be available to interview (you have the $ and firms will often do this since it is free for them anyway), you can cancel the trip if no one bites
*Pick up any extra interviews through job fairs etc. that your school offers or that are applicable to you
*Practice interviewing highlighting themes that concentrate on your strengths (so grades arent one of them, there are others, even some better ones that you may have from your WE)
*Bid smartly at OCI, make sure to get in front of firms that actually may hire you
*Hustle at OCI, talk to firm reps in between interviews, ask to drop off your resume (which probably should not include your GPA) during their lunch hours and see if they can squeeze you in for an extra interview (i got many extra interviews this way)
*Don't give up till you have an offer
*???
*Get offer, make money

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thelawyler
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby thelawyler » Wed May 08, 2013 10:19 am

bowser wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Primarily because of self selection, and then because of some local favoritism.

For example, UVA classes goes to DC more than NYC. And Penn's goes to NYC more than DC. And Michigan is pretty widespread, but only 20% go to NYC, 12% go to Illinois and another 12% Michigan.

It's just easier to get a job at Milbank NYC, than Patton Boggs DC, Jenner Block Chicago or ShitLaw's Michigan office. Penn students would get dinged applying to Jenner Chicago en masse. And Michigan students would do better if they were applying at Milbank or Cadwalder NYC in large numbers.

There may some favoritism at play, but the self selection makes it really hard to compare.

But the firms aren't sitting there thinking 50%UMich=65%UPenn. Why would they? They are peer schools with comparable school talent.




1. Do you think law students, esp. T14 ones, as a rule are stubborn about geographic/practice preferences to the point that generally the economy doesn't deter them from going after what they want? (So Mich students, even knowing NYC would be easier, choose to bid California or Chicago)


Yes. Its even surprising how people at median or below say that they aren't researching their OCI bids and will just "bid the firms they want"

SportsFan
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby SportsFan » Wed May 08, 2013 10:43 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:I think different schools' lottery/pre-select systems play a part, but I don't think firms view MVP or for that matter BDNC people any differently on paper. Grade distributions might play a factor too.


Other than UVA they are all the same. And I bet UVA's hurts it a bit.

Re: grade distributions: It seems like a lot of firms figure it out, but some firms were still confused about rancid NLaw grade inflation.

I know Penn is entirely lottery, no pre-select. Thats how Michigan and BDNC are too?

FWIW, I posted my "why does Penn do so well" theory in another topic yesterday, but I think its basically because unlike the other east coast T13's, it has a non-NYC/DC home market that can absorb a decent amount of grads. Also, I believe that firms (except the V10, who do like Columbia and NYU more) pretty much view the non-HYS T13's the same.

Anonymous User
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 08, 2013 11:40 am

OP, it's only going to cost your time over the summer and one semester to see if OCI pans out (you are a 1L, right?) Yes, that's a significant amount of money, but if you paid for a year and still have $300k left over, you can pay for another semester and still leave with a quarter of a million dollars to start your own business or pay living expenses while you do something else. Drop out if you don't get anything by the time Spring semester 2L tuition is due.

005618502
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 005618502 » Wed May 08, 2013 12:28 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:I think different schools' lottery/pre-select systems play a part, but I don't think firms view MVP or for that matter BDNC people any differently on paper. Grade distributions might play a factor too.


Other than UVA they are all the same. And I bet UVA's hurts it a bit.

Re: grade distributions: It seems like a lot of firms figure it out, but some firms were still confused about rancid NLaw grade inflation.


Yeah, I think UVA's system helps those in the top 25% while hurting those at the bottom

SportsFan
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby SportsFan » Wed May 08, 2013 12:41 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:I think different schools' lottery/pre-select systems play a part, but I don't think firms view MVP or for that matter BDNC people any differently on paper. Grade distributions might play a factor too.


Other than UVA they are all the same. And I bet UVA's hurts it a bit.

Re: grade distributions: It seems like a lot of firms figure it out, but some firms were still confused about rancid NLaw grade inflation.


Yeah, I think UVA's system helps those in the top 25% while hurting those at the bottom

From what I've seen, I think the grade distributions and pre-select system both combine to really hurt UVA. ITE, IMO they could still have really strong placement numbers with one of those things, but both? No way. Do you know how many OCI interviews people get? Career services at Penn told us the average is 15-18.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed May 08, 2013 6:08 pm

I have no opinion on whether you should drop out, but if what you're really concerned about is whether you have a chance at biglaw, the answer is emphatically yes. Come on. Michigan's placing, what, 40% of its grads in biglaw jobs. That means that firms are actually hiring well below that point in the class. And you're effectively in the broad middle of the class.

Also +1 to everything DF said. Way too much bullshit gets spewed on here about placement power differences among peer schools. Law firms don't make the kind of incremental distinctions that law students do about whether you go to Michigan or Penn. If you can put as much effort and interest into interviewing with less selective NYC firms as a student at Penn with the same grades, you will have the same odds at getting the job.

Now whether it's worth staying in school even if you get biglaw is another question but you can answer that one yourself.

005618502
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Re: Dropout? MVP Around 60-70%

Postby 005618502 » Wed May 08, 2013 6:17 pm

SportsFan wrote:From what I've seen, I think the grade distributions and pre-select system both combine to really hurt UVA. ITE, IMO they could still have really strong placement numbers with one of those things, but both? No way. Do you know how many OCI interviews people get? Career services at Penn told us the average is 15-18.


What do you mean grade distribution? There is a 3.3 curve....just like most places.




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