Taking time off from summer firm

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Thu May 02, 2013 12:52 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am the best man in a wedding coming up this summer (after my 2L SA will be over), and the bachelor party falls about 2/3 of the way into my SA. When should I tell my firm that I would like to take a Friday off during the summer for this bachelor party? I figure the sooner the better, but was wondering if I should notify them now (before starting) or wait until I start my summer?


You don't take time off from an SA, and definitely not for a bachelor party.


CR. I know a summer associate who was no-offered for taking time off for a wedding.

pastapplicant
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby pastapplicant » Thu May 02, 2013 12:58 am

why is this even a question? in this market and with the legal hiring structure, why would you want to risk having a point deducted against you? i understand the importance of a bachelor party but the risks of being no offered is not worth it.

Anonymous User
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 02, 2013 2:36 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am the best man in a wedding coming up this summer (after my 2L SA will be over), and the bachelor party falls about 2/3 of the way into my SA. When should I tell my firm that I would like to take a Friday off during the summer for this bachelor party? I figure the sooner the better, but was wondering if I should notify them now (before starting) or wait until I start my summer?


You don't take time off from an SA, and definitely not for a bachelor party.


CR. I know a summer associate who was no-offered for taking time off for a wedding.


I know an SA who was no-offered for going to dinner with his wife, on his birthday, leaving at 3:00pm, where the associates all said "get out of here and have fun with your wife!" The partner needed help on diligence at 4pm and noticed he was gone, and didn't care that the associates had given him permission to leave.

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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 02, 2013 2:40 pm

Basically, the lesson is not to get fooled into thinking that these people are your friends. Nothing wrong with being friendly, and nothing wrong with having fun at the events, and so forth.

But it's a business first and always.

I find it likely that you'll make the correct decisions more often than not if you approach your decisions from that standpoint.

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TTRansfer
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby TTRansfer » Thu May 02, 2013 3:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am the best man in a wedding coming up this summer (after my 2L SA will be over), and the bachelor party falls about 2/3 of the way into my SA. When should I tell my firm that I would like to take a Friday off during the summer for this bachelor party? I figure the sooner the better, but was wondering if I should notify them now (before starting) or wait until I start my summer?


You don't take time off from an SA, and definitely not for a bachelor party.


CR. I know a summer associate who was no-offered for taking time off for a wedding.


I know an SA who was no-offered for going to dinner with his wife, on his birthday, leaving at 3:00pm, where the associates all said "get out of here and have fun with your wife!" The partner needed help on diligence at 4pm and noticed he was gone, and didn't care that the associates had given him permission to leave.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 02, 2013 3:26 pm

TTRansfer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
CR. I know a summer associate who was no-offered for taking time off for a wedding.


I know an SA who was no-offered for going to dinner with his wife, on his birthday, leaving at 3:00pm, where the associates all said "get out of here and have fun with your wife!" The partner needed help on diligence at 4pm and noticed he was gone, and didn't care that the associates had given him permission to leave.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


This actually happened. No matter how good you are, if the wrong partner decides to hate you, you will not get an offer.

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Icculus
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby Icculus » Thu May 02, 2013 3:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
TTRansfer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
CR. I know a summer associate who was no-offered for taking time off for a wedding.


I know an SA who was no-offered for going to dinner with his wife, on his birthday, leaving at 3:00pm, where the associates all said "get out of here and have fun with your wife!" The partner needed help on diligence at 4pm and noticed he was gone, and didn't care that the associates had given him permission to leave.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


This actually happened. No matter how good you are, if the wrong partner decides to hate you, you will not get an offer.


That sucks.

KidStuddi
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby KidStuddi » Thu May 02, 2013 10:36 pm

Desert Fox wrote:@Kidstuddi - There is a reason why firms have vacation policies for attorneys and don't have one for SA's. Fulltime longterm employees are expected to take time off. Nobody is going to give an associate shit for taking a day off. An SA just can't take a day off for shits and giggles. So clearly there is some difference here. Associates can take a whole week off, SA's can't. How different will the firm treat it, I don't really know. But saying, hey associates take off for anime conventions, don't a pussy, is bad advice. If the OP was an associate this wouldn't be a question. It's also a bachelor party, not a wedding.

Fulltime workers don't need a reason to take a day off. IMO, SA's do. I'm sure my firm would have asked why I needed a day off.


I understand the difference between an SA and a full-time position, having held within the last three years. This is precisely why I continue to advocate that OP approach the firm early and make it clear that he intends to shift the work he would be expected to do either by staying late or coming in early as needed to make up for the time he will be unavailable.

If you're taking a personal day in a full-time position, you don't overwork to offset for your absence. That, in fact, would defeat the purpose of taking paid time off. The privilege you earn as a full-time employee accruing PTO is that you're not expected to make up the time you miss. It's completely different from this situation where OP is merely asking for flexibility in his schedule and is willing and able to offset it.

If you want to draw a more apt analogy to employment in other contexts, this is closer to asking to switch shifts. It's not ideal, and there might not be a formal policy endorsing it, and it's not something you should make a habit out of doing "just because," but so long as you're not abusing the privilege, it's nothing significant or out of the ordinary to expect some flexibility. Especially for salaried employees.

Absenteeism is usually problematic when people do it chronically or irresponsibly (like the guy who left early on his birthday without letting the people expecting his presence know and being proactive about it). Under those circumstances, a mitigating "why" might be expected and necessary, and if that why is unconvincing for the frequency / suddenness of your absence, yeah you might be in trouble. But this idea that you're going to be grilled and judged about your reasons for needing flexibility on one day when you ask months ahead of time is silly. It's not an extraordinary request.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby Lawquacious » Thu May 02, 2013 11:03 pm

Threads like this make me so glad I am not SAing as a big law bitch. Not that I wouldn't have taken the opportunity if I didn't miss that boat, but damn, needing to worry about taking a single day off in a three month period just blows. I really don't give a shit how much money it involves. Not worth it.

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romothesavior
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby romothesavior » Fri May 03, 2013 3:18 pm

Lawquacious wrote:Threads like this make me so glad I am not SAing as a big law bitch. Not that I wouldn't have taken the opportunity if I didn't miss that boat, but damn, needing to worry about taking a single day off in a three month period just blows. I really don't give a shit how much money it involves. Not worth it.

It makes me glad I'm not going to some "prestigious" Vault firm in New York or Chicago. No-offering a guy for leaving at 3:00 on his birthday to go have an evening with his wife? It's so ridiculous I wouldn't even believe it if it weren't for having spent spent 4 years on TLS reading about shit like this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying my firm wouldn't no-offer me if there was really no way to hire me, or that it's going to be easy or fun or any of that, and I'm sure there are jerk partners at every firm. But the stories and attitudes being shared in here are just from a different world altogether.

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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby IAFG » Fri May 03, 2013 4:56 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Threads like this make me so glad I am not SAing as a big law bitch. Not that I wouldn't have taken the opportunity if I didn't miss that boat, but damn, needing to worry about taking a single day off in a three month period just blows. I really don't give a shit how much money it involves. Not worth it.

It makes me glad I'm not going to some "prestigious" Vault firm in New York or Chicago. No-offering a guy for leaving at 3:00 on his birthday to go have an evening with his wife? It's so ridiculous I wouldn't even believe it if it weren't for having spent spent 4 years on TLS reading about shit like this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying my firm wouldn't no-offer me if there was really no way to hire me, or that it's going to be easy or fun or any of that, and I'm sure there are jerk partners at every firm. But the stories and attitudes being shared in here are just from a different world altogether.

I don't think people are more likely to get no offered from prestigious firms for inane reasons. Actually I suspect the opposite.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri May 03, 2013 8:37 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Threads like this make me so glad I am not SAing as a big law bitch. Not that I wouldn't have taken the opportunity if I didn't miss that boat, but damn, needing to worry about taking a single day off in a three month period just blows. I really don't give a shit how much money it involves. Not worth it.

It makes me glad I'm not going to some "prestigious" Vault firm in New York or Chicago. No-offering a guy for leaving at 3:00 on his birthday to go have an evening with his wife? It's so ridiculous I wouldn't even believe it if it weren't for having spent spent 4 years on TLS reading about shit like this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying my firm wouldn't no-offer me if there was really no way to hire me, or that it's going to be easy or fun or any of that, and I'm sure there are jerk partners at every firm. But the stories and attitudes being shared in here are just from a different world altogether.

I did an SA at a NYC Vault firm and will be going back in the fall, and some of the attitudes here are pretty foreign to me as well, for what it's worth. It really seems like it comes down to a firm-to-firm difference—and even a partner-to-partner difference.

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TTRansfer
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby TTRansfer » Sat May 04, 2013 2:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:This actually happened. No matter how good you are, if the wrong partner decides to hate you, you will not get an offer.


I actually don't believe that was the reason he was no-offered. I just don't buy it.

Anonymous User
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 04, 2013 4:21 pm

I'm a little late to this party but thought I would chime in. If I were you, I would not take time off to attend a bachelor party. I SA'd at a firm that has an ironclad 100% offer rate, and I still wouldn't have taken the time off. When you are there, you are getting to know the firm and trying to get an offer, but you're also building a personal brand. Being the guy who needed a day off to go to a party is not good for your brand. It's 12 weeks of your life, you can make it through without needing time off for Vegas.

I know too many people that got no-offered at their 85% offer rate firms to say , "oh, it's totally fine." If they get to the end of the summer and find that they don't need as many new associates as they thought, bachelor party guy will get put on the "not serious" list.

Miss the first day of events at this bachelor party . Or miss all of them. In five years, your brother's bachelor party will be something totally insignificant, to you and to him. But if you get no offered, trust me, that will have real meaning. All this wedding crap is way overblown and people take it far too seriously. Get your priorities straight.

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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 04, 2013 4:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Get your priorities straight.

Priorities are subjective. For you, attending a brother's wedding event might not be that important. But for someone else it might be very important.

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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 04, 2013 4:50 pm

Yea, it can go the other way too. 5 years from now you could have quit/been laid off from big law for any number of random reasons and you and your brother will look back and laugh at how big of a douche you were for missing the party.

I think TCR is try to make as much of the event as possible w/o missing work. Fwiw I'm doing this with a Saturday wedding when I'm SA-ing this summer. I'm missing all of the pre-wedding stuff on Friday and just taking a late flight out Friday night.

09042014
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby 09042014 » Sat May 04, 2013 5:00 pm

The real question is why people think it's okay to plan wedding "events" that force other people to waste vacation days. That's TTT selfish behavior. Does your bro really need to sniff a strippers butthold three days in a row?

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IAFG
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby IAFG » Sat May 04, 2013 7:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Get your priorities straight.

Priorities are subjective. For you, attending a brother's wedding event might not be that important. But for someone else it might be very important.

I doubt many people, being honest with themselves, would still say so in the thick of 3L job hunt.

NYstate
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby NYstate » Sat May 04, 2013 7:15 pm

TTRansfer wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:This actually happened. No matter how good you are, if the wrong partner decides to hate you, you will not get an offer.


I actually don't believe that was the reason he was no-offered. I just don't buy it.


I can believe it. No one needs to leave at 3pm. The idea is crazy. No one needs an afternoon off unless they are going to the emergency room.

If you are leaving early, make sure the partners know about it in advance.

This attitude of "it's nice out and it's my birthday so I want to leave early if there is nothing happening" will not fly. If it turns out you are needed and you aren't at work - and you are getting paid a fortune that is coming out of the partners' pocket- they aren't going to be happy.

Although, if this guy was a spectacular genius he might have pulled it off, taking the risk is foolish.
Last edited by NYstate on Sat May 04, 2013 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby 09042014 » Sat May 04, 2013 7:18 pm

Also, birthdays being special is for preteens and younger.

NYstate
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby NYstate » Sat May 04, 2013 7:21 pm

Also, the associates don't decide who gets offers. Please the partner.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby worldtraveler » Sat May 04, 2013 8:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a little late to this party but thought I would chime in. If I were you, I would not take time off to attend a bachelor party. I SA'd at a firm that has an ironclad 100% offer rate, and I still wouldn't have taken the time off. When you are there, you are getting to know the firm and trying to get an offer, but you're also building a personal brand. Being the guy who needed a day off to go to a party is not good for your brand. It's 12 weeks of your life, you can make it through without needing time off for Vegas.

I know too many people that got no-offered at their 85% offer rate firms to say , "oh, it's totally fine." If they get to the end of the summer and find that they don't need as many new associates as they thought, bachelor party guy will get put on the "not serious" list.

Miss the first day of events at this bachelor party . Or miss all of them. In five years, your brother's bachelor party will be something totally insignificant, to you and to him. But if you get no offered, trust me, that will have real meaning. All this wedding crap is way overblown and people take it far too seriously. Get your priorities straight.


I don't know about that. I missed my sister's bachelorette party and 8 years later she's still angry with me. Hard to control your family members' emotions about what they do and do not find important.

seatown12
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby seatown12 » Sat May 04, 2013 8:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Miss the first day of events at this bachelor party . Or miss all of them. In five years, your brother's bachelor party will be something totally insignificant, to you and to him. But if you get no offered, trust me, that will have real meaning. All this wedding crap is way overblown and people take it far too seriously. Get your priorities straight.

least true thing in the thread

some people's ideas about bachelor parties seem to be based entirely on The Hangover

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat May 04, 2013 9:19 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm a little late to this party but thought I would chime in. If I were you, I would not take time off to attend a bachelor party. I SA'd at a firm that has an ironclad 100% offer rate, and I still wouldn't have taken the time off. When you are there, you are getting to know the firm and trying to get an offer, but you're also building a personal brand. Being the guy who needed a day off to go to a party is not good for your brand. It's 12 weeks of your life, you can make it through without needing time off for Vegas.

I know too many people that got no-offered at their 85% offer rate firms to say , "oh, it's totally fine." If they get to the end of the summer and find that they don't need as many new associates as they thought, bachelor party guy will get put on the "not serious" list.

Miss the first day of events at this bachelor party . Or miss all of them. In five years, your brother's bachelor party will be something totally insignificant, to you and to him. But if you get no offered, trust me, that will have real meaning. All this wedding crap is way overblown and people take it far too seriously. Get your priorities straight.


I don't know about that. I missed my sister's bachelorette party and 8 years later she's still angry with me. Hard to control your family members' emotions about what they do and do not find important.


That's fucking ridiculous. It's a bacherlorette party, not the wedding itself.

Anonymous User
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Re: Taking time off from summer firm

Postby Anonymous User » Sat May 04, 2013 11:39 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I am the best man in a wedding coming up this summer (after my 2L SA will be over), and the bachelor party falls about 2/3 of the way into my SA. When should I tell my firm that I would like to take a Friday off during the summer for this bachelor party? I figure the sooner the better, but was wondering if I should notify them now (before starting) or wait until I start my summer?

Taking time off from a 2L SA for a bachelor party seems like an astronomically dumb idea. Maybe a wedding that you're the best man in, maybe. But definitely not a bachelor party.


I just told my childhood best friend I couldn't be her bridesmaid in four weeks after all. I based this on the fact that I once worked in an office that would get extremely upset when people took off for weddings, and often told them upfront that this was not considered a legitimate excuse for time off.




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