This Summer is Going to Suck

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
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rad lulz
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:00 pm

thesealocust wrote:
redsox550 wrote:Before I started law shcool I thought top 10%at t50's was a lock for OCI


:shock:

redsox550
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby redsox550 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:09 am

thesealocust wrote:
redsox550 wrote:Before I started law shcool I thought top 10%at t50's was a lock for OCI


:shock:


To be more clear - adding most of the T50, and I thought that similar to law school admissions numbers = everything and thus since most T50 have at least 10% in biglaw or clerkships I thought if you were among those top 10% you were gold, and if you wernt then you had no shot. This thread shows how much other things besides grades matter

de5igual
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby de5igual » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:2L. T20 school. Top 10%. Champ of 2 skills competitions, sit on 2 skills boards. Prior work experience.

It's April and I have had maybe 3 interviews out of over a thousand apps sent since I failed to even get a screener at OCI. No offers.

I don't understand.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND. :evil:


how is this possible?? screener interviews are chosen solely off of resumes (assuming you're at a preselect school), which means something is horribly wrong/offensive on your resume.

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Postby Myself » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:56 am

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rad lulz
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby rad lulz » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:59 am

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de5igual
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby de5igual » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:09 am

ajax adonis wrote:
f0bolous wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:2L. T20 school. Top 10%. Champ of 2 skills competitions, sit on 2 skills boards. Prior work experience.

It's April and I have had maybe 3 interviews out of over a thousand apps sent since I failed to even get a screener at OCI. No offers.

I don't understand.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND. :evil:


how is this possible?? screener interviews are chosen solely off of resumes (assuming you're at a preselect school), which means something is horribly wrong/offensive on your resume.


Not necessarily. Pre-selects mean that everyone who's being interviewed was pre-selected. That means each person is decently qualified, and you're competing with them.


Not sure what you're trying to correct here. Top 10% at a T20 is typically able to get selected for every screener absent some major red flag on the resume.

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Renne Walker
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby Renne Walker » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:10 am

IRL this is not particularly rare, but only once on TLS have I seen someone (a 2L) noting that they were a Certified Legal Intern. What’s up with that? I suspect the extra effort would result in a big boost to one’s resume and employment picture.

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Postby Myself » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:29 am

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:33 am

Renne Walker wrote:IRL this is not particularly rare, but only once on TLS have I seen someone (a 2L) noting that they were a Certified Legal Intern. What’s up with that? I suspect the extra effort would result in a big boost to one’s resume and employment picture.

Don't you have to have a supervising attorney? It seems to me this is something that would only be useful once you've already found a job - it's not like you can go out and practice on your own under this status. Also, I had to google that - plenty of states don't have that position/requirement (in mine 2Ls and 3Ls can represent clients in court for clinics or as DA interns and so on without any kind of certification process).

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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:42 am

rad lulz wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:
f0bolous wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:2L. T20 school. Top 10%. Champ of 2 skills competitions, sit on 2 skills boards. Prior work experience.

It's April and I have had maybe 3 interviews out of over a thousand apps sent since I failed to even get a screener at OCI. No offers.

I don't understand.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND. :evil:


how is this possible?? screener interviews are chosen solely off of resumes (assuming you're at a preselect school), which means something is horribly wrong/offensive on your resume.


Not necessarily. Pre-selects mean that everyone who's being interviewed was pre-selected. That means each person is decently qualified, and you're competing with them.

Maybe it's some shit tier "T20" like ASU/U Wash




To clarify, I'm a transfer. During OCI my gpa was top 1/3 from a lower school. But yea, no screeners.

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Lincoln
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby Lincoln » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:To clarify, I'm a transfer. During OCI my gpa was top 1/3 from a lower school. But yea, no screeners.


This is why. Most firms treat you no differently than they would have at your other school, because they can't compare your credentials to your new classmates. If they don't recruit from your old school, there is little chance of getting a CB (or a screener, if OCI is run on a pre-select system).

By the way, am I the only one who started law school completely unaware of the preselect/lottery issue and think it should be more of a factor in people's choosing between schools?

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Renne Walker
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby Renne Walker » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:01 am

ajax adonis wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:IRL this is not particularly rare, but only once on TLS have I seen someone (a 2L) noting that they were a Certified Legal Intern. What’s up with that? I suspect the extra effort would result in a big boost to one’s resume and employment picture.


Are you asking whether being a Certified Legal Intern is a big boost when applying for jobs?

The Cohorts I know who are Certified Legal Interns relish the work and experience. Granted, schools do not make certifications easy to obtain but I think it is worth the effort since it demonstrates determination and simultaneously enhances one’s legal experience. On the employment front is it a game changer, not sure, but maybe.

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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:10 am

Anonymous User wrote: To clarify, I'm a transfer. During OCI my gpa was top 1/3 from a lower school. But yea, no screeners.


Would you mind sharing, either here or by PM, which school you transferred to? I'm considering a transfer myself and am worried about this.

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Renne Walker
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby Renne Walker » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:36 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Don't you have to have a supervising attorney? It seems to me this is something that would only be useful once you've already found a job - it's not like you can go out and practice on your own under this status. Also, I had to google that - plenty of states don't have that position/requirement (in mine 2Ls and 3Ls can represent clients in court for clinics or as DA interns and so on without any kind of certification process).


Yes, you do have to have a supervising attorney but they do not have to be at your side in court (is my understanding). You have clients and face down other attorneys (most often govt). I do not know many details because they are handling real cases (interviewing clients, etc.), thus, they cannot speak openly. Turns out they all have SAs (some from 1L) but I do not believe it is a requirement, it just happens to be that way. Personally, I think it would be more helpful for someone seeking love from a firm.

As a side note, I know they recently faced one of our moot court champs and kicked butt (as I hear it). This was in front of judges (most likely visiting judges to the school) about a real case that was being debated. To me this is more compelling to have in your repartee than, I was in the top % of my whatever.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:53 am

Renne Walker wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Don't you have to have a supervising attorney? It seems to me this is something that would only be useful once you've already found a job - it's not like you can go out and practice on your own under this status. Also, I had to google that - plenty of states don't have that position/requirement (in mine 2Ls and 3Ls can represent clients in court for clinics or as DA interns and so on without any kind of certification process).


Yes, you do have to have a supervising attorney but they do not have to be at your side in court (is my understanding). You have clients and face down other attorneys (most often govt). I do not know many details because they are handling real cases (interviewing clients, etc.), thus, they cannot speak openly. Turns out they all have SAs (some from 1L) but I do not believe it is a requirement, it just happens to be that way. Personally, I think it would be more helpful for someone seeking love from a firm.

As a side note, I know they recently faced one of our moot court champs and kicked butt (as I hear it). This was in front of judges (most likely visiting judges to the school) about a real case that was being debated. To me this is more compelling to have in your repartee than, I was in the top % of my whatever.

Right, I understand that you don't have to have the supervising attorney with you in court. I'm just saying it's sort of a useless certification until you actually get a job, so I don't see how having it would get you the job. At least in my state, you don't need any qualifications to stand up in court apart from being a law student and having someone willing to supervise you, so it doesn't show anything that you went out and got it (I mean, you couldn't even get that kind of certification until you had a supervising attorney, which would mean you already had that job, so how can it help you get the job?).

The experience that you can get as a Certified Legal Intern might well be valuable to an employer. But not the actual certification itself. And to get the experience, you have to find someone willing to hire you first.

As for SAs, no firm that runs a summer program is going to have a law student stand up in court. So it's not going to be a very useful qualification. PDs and DAs and legal aid, these are the kinds of organizations that will care if a law student can speak in court.

And sure, moot court successes are great. Those judges probably got a great impression of that person. But firms still primarily care about the grades.

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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: To clarify, I'm a transfer. During OCI my gpa was top 1/3 from a lower school. But yea, no screeners.


Would you mind sharing, either here or by PM, which school you transferred to? I'm considering a transfer myself and am worried about this.


If you post without being anonymous, I'll pm you the details. I don't want to post the school on this thread; with the information I've given I'd be an easy ID.

Yea, I went into OCI expecting it to be rough. I was hoping to get great grades, nail some competitions, and get a job outside OCI or through spring recruiting. Well, I did all those things (top 10% after 1st semester at new school, made 2 skills boards, won competitions), but I've made zero headway with finding a job. It's not for lack of effort. I spend all of my time e-mailing, applying, calling, networking. Shit sucks. Pro-tip: transferring is quite often a shit decision.

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Postby Myself » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:26 am

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rad lulz
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby rad lulz » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: To clarify, I'm a transfer. During OCI my gpa was top 1/3 from a lower school. But yea, no screeners.


Would you mind sharing, either here or by PM, which school you transferred to? I'm considering a transfer myself and am worried about this.


If you post without being anonymous, I'll pm you the details. I don't want to post the school on this thread; with the information I've given I'd be an easy ID.

Yea, I went into OCI expecting it to be rough. I was hoping to get great grades, nail some competitions, and get a job outside OCI or through spring recruiting. Well, I did all those things (top 10% after 1st semester at new school, made 2 skills boards, won competitions), but I've made zero headway with finding a job. It's not for lack of effort. I spend all of my time e-mailing, applying, calling, networking. Shit sucks. Pro-tip: transferring is quite often a shit decision.

To be fair, your chance at OCI would have been slim from your 1L school with top third grades in all likelihood

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Renne Walker
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby Renne Walker » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:07 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:Yes, you do have to have a supervising attorney but they do not have to be at your side in court (is my understanding). You have clients and face down other attorneys (most often govt). Personally, I think it would be more helpful for someone seeking love from a firm.

Right, I understand that you don't have to have the supervising attorney with you in court. I'm just saying it's sort of a useless certification until you actually get a job, so I don't see how having it would get you the job.

The supervising attorney is a LS professor.

I do not know of a law firm that has (or would) sponsor a student (even an SA) to be a Certified Judicial Intern. The idea here is for a law student to gain court experience, simultaneously adding cred to your resume. Even with an SA in the bag, I cannot think of a reason why having hands-on experience would not be viewed very favorably.

echooo23
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby echooo23 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: To clarify, I'm a transfer. During OCI my gpa was top 1/3 from a lower school. But yea, no screeners.


Would you mind sharing, either here or by PM, which school you transferred to? I'm considering a transfer myself and am worried about this.


If you post without being anonymous, I'll pm you the details. I don't want to post the school on this thread; with the information I've given I'd be an easy ID.

Yea, I went into OCI expecting it to be rough. I was hoping to get great grades, nail some competitions, and get a job outside OCI or through spring recruiting. Well, I did all those things (top 10% after 1st semester at new school, made 2 skills boards, won competitions), but I've made zero headway with finding a job. It's not for lack of effort. I spend all of my time e-mailing, applying, calling, networking. Shit sucks. Pro-tip: transferring is quite often a shit decision.


OP, pm me, if you don't mind.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:42 pm

Renne Walker wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:Yes, you do have to have a supervising attorney but they do not have to be at your side in court (is my understanding). You have clients and face down other attorneys (most often govt). Personally, I think it would be more helpful for someone seeking love from a firm.

Right, I understand that you don't have to have the supervising attorney with you in court. I'm just saying it's sort of a useless certification until you actually get a job, so I don't see how having it would get you the job.

The supervising attorney is a LS professor.

I do not know of a law firm that has (or would) sponsor a student (even an SA) to be a Certified Judicial Intern. The idea here is for a law student to gain court experience, simultaneously adding cred to your resume. Even with an SA in the bag, I cannot think of a reason why having hands-on experience would not be viewed very favorably.

Because you're not getting hands on experience in anything biglaw firms do. And they don't know who's training you. I mean, I personally think it's a great thing to do and that court experience is valuable, but I'm not going to biglaw. Biglaw - which is who goes to OCI and offers SAs - doesn't care. People who go into court under Certified Legal Intern status (or the equivalent in other states) are invariably in criminal or maybe juvenile/family law stuff. People in this thread are talking about getting SAs through OCI. You're comparing apples to oranges. Law firms offering SAs are never going to put law students in court, so they don't care if you're certified. And I can't see why DAs/PDs/etc would care if you were certified before they hired you, since you can just get certified once they have hired you.

Again, if you have already been certified, and you have used that certification to stand up and do stuff in court, that will likely make you more appealing to PDs/DAs/legal aid, and possibly some small firms doing criminal defense/family law. But having the certification itself doesn't mean anything. So there's no reason anyone would mention it as something that would put you ahead of the game in getting a job, especially a SA.

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Renne Walker
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby Renne Walker » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:26 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:The supervising attorney is a LS professor.

I do not know of a law firm that has (or would) sponsor a student (even an SA) to be a Certified Judicial Intern. The idea here is for a law student to gain court experience, simultaneously adding cred to your resume. Even with an SA in the bag, I cannot think of a reason why having hands-on experience would not be viewed very favorably.

.... having the certification itself doesn't mean anything. So there's no reason anyone would mention it as something that would put you ahead of the game in getting a job, especially a SA.

I think what the certification itself does is open avenues to gain experience which could pay off for those competing for an SA slot. If I was facing OCI interviews I believe having this experience to spin would be a big plus, no matter what type of legal practice or firm size the interviewer represented. It certainly bodes well that the school thought highly enough of you to offer a certification - they are not common.

I believe we agree that it is a good experience, the question is how helpful is it?

Also, I find it odd that I never see this opportunity discussed on this site.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:33 pm

Renne Walker wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:The supervising attorney is a LS professor.

I do not know of a law firm that has (or would) sponsor a student (even an SA) to be a Certified Judicial Intern. The idea here is for a law student to gain court experience, simultaneously adding cred to your resume. Even with an SA in the bag, I cannot think of a reason why having hands-on experience would not be viewed very favorably.

.... having the certification itself doesn't mean anything. So there's no reason anyone would mention it as something that would put you ahead of the game in getting a job, especially a SA.

I think what the certification does is open avenues to gain experience which could pay off for those competing for an SA slot. If I was facing OCI interviews I believe having this experience to spin would be a big plus, no matter what type of legal practice or firm size the interviewer represented. It certainly bodes well that the school thought highly enough of you to offer a certification.

I believe we agree that it is a good experience, the question is how helpful is it?

Also, I find it odd that I never see this opportunity discussed on this site.

1) experience is completely different from having the certification - people won't say, "I'm a certified legal intern," they'll say, "I did x, y, and z in court."

2) you generally won't get this experience before OCI, because you have to have completed a certain number of academic credits before you can be certified. So you could talk about the experience you're going to get, but you won't have that experience yet. So it's of limited use for OCI.

3) there isn't any competition to get certified - you just have to fulfill the requirements - so it doesn't say anything at all about what your school thinks of you.

4) I had never heard of "certified legal intern" before this conversation, because many states/schools don't really call it that. So it may be you don't see it discussed on this site because people are doing this all the time, they just don't call it "certified legal intern" - they're doing a clinic or working for legal aid or the PD or DA or whatever. It's not really an independent qualification - it's a way to do work for (generally) a non-profit organization.

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Renne Walker
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby Renne Walker » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:40 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:1) experience is completely different from having the certification - people won't say, "I'm a certified legal intern," they'll say, "I did x, y, and z in court."

2) you generally won't get this experience before OCI, because you have to have completed a certain number of academic credits before you can be certified. So you could talk about the experience you're going to get, but you won't have that experience yet. So it's of limited use for OCI.

3) there isn't any competition to get certified - you just have to fulfill the requirements - so it doesn't say anything at all about what your school thinks of you.

4) I had never heard of "certified legal intern" before this conversation, because many states/schools don't really call it that. So it may be you don't see it discussed on this site because people are doing this all the time, they just don't call it "certified legal intern" - they're doing a clinic or working for legal aid or the PD or DA or whatever. It's not really an independent qualification - it's a way to do work for (generally) a non-profit organization.


1. Agreed. Put it on your resume and when its time, then discuss your x,y,z experience (that most others may not have).

2. After 1L it is available to those hoping to escape the Vale.

3. I do not know enough about it to differ, but I believe it is more complex than stated.

4. I had not heard about it until recently when a couple cohorts were heading to court make a case for their clients.

One other thing - per an earlier thread. I have never heard of anyone "not offered" because their grades had fallen. Mine certainly fell, as did some others, but nothing ever came of it. Not sure the firm knew or cared.

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Lincoln
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Re: This Summer is Going to Suck

Postby Lincoln » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:49 pm

Renne Walker wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:1) experience is completely different from having the certification - people won't say, "I'm a certified legal intern," they'll say, "I did x, y, and z in court."

2) you generally won't get this experience before OCI, because you have to have completed a certain number of academic credits before you can be certified. So you could talk about the experience you're going to get, but you won't have that experience yet. So it's of limited use for OCI.

3) there isn't any competition to get certified - you just have to fulfill the requirements - so it doesn't say anything at all about what your school thinks of you.

4) I had never heard of "certified legal intern" before this conversation, because many states/schools don't really call it that. So it may be you don't see it discussed on this site because people are doing this all the time, they just don't call it "certified legal intern" - they're doing a clinic or working for legal aid or the PD or DA or whatever. It's not really an independent qualification - it's a way to do work for (generally) a non-profit organization.


1. Agreed. Put it on your resume and when its time, then discuss your x,y,z experience (that most others may not have).

2. After 1L it is available to those hoping to escape the Vale.

3. I do not know enough about it to differ, but I believe it is more complex than stated.

4. I had not heard about it until recently when a couple cohorts were heading to court make a case for their clients.

One other thing - per an earlier thread. I have never heard of anyone "not offered" because their grades had fallen. Mine certainly fell, as did some others, but nothing ever came of it. Not sure the firm knew or cared.


Why are you so obsessed with this "certification"? I've literally never heard of it before. I'm sure the experience is better than not having it, but mouse is right: it's not the type of experience you will use at a firm, so I doubt it's a ticket to a firm jerb.




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