UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

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haus
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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby haus » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:16 pm

$$$$$$ wrote:At my T-14, career services was nothing more than a sounding board for my pain and a cheerleader in times of doubt, and when I actually got a job. Many of them had careers in big law and other contacts from many different industries and only one was even willing to connect me to one of those people and it was in a very roundabout and useless way. Career services at law school are useless and I would not rely on them (and didn't) for finding a job outside of OCI. However, when you pay $50K a year for a professional school, you think that the people paid to help you find jobs would not be utterly useless. I think that my list of alumni contacts is currently better than the one that the school has on file for students looking to network, pretty pathetic.

Ideally if you have spent $50k a year for professional school for a few years you would be desirable enough that you would not need additional help in finding a job, but as we all know, reality does not always play along.

I seem to recall that in the in 2008-2009 when the economy was really looking bad, and several financial services firms were laying people off by the truck load, the career service folks from Harvard we traveling down to New York to help graduates from recent years that had been swept up in the layoffs to find other opportunities. Sadly, I suspect that the number of school willing and/or capable of such actions is somewhat limited.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:19 pm

stuckinthemiddle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I don't understand what the Career Services at my school actually does on a day-to-day basis. They send out weekly e-mails with the same cut/paste job listings and career info. If I go into my CSO's office, they have information forms that haven't been updated since the early 2000s. Similarly, the Excel sheets of alumni are severely outdated and are essentially useless.

I was in the top 10% at my school, which should have easily landed me a job at OCI. I'm a shitty interviewer, and it's completely my fault that I didn't prepare at all before OCI. Nonetheless, I met with our Dean of Career Services in early September after striking out, and he flat out told me to give up on biglaw and that I should focus on small firms/government/PI stuff. He did say that I'd have a small chance at a mid-sized firm in my home state because the hiring partner had called him looking for people from my state that attended my school. The Dean asked for my resume, which I e-mailed him almost immediately. A week later, I contacted the Dean to follow up, and he thanked me for reminding me him and notified me that he had just forwarded my resume on. About a week later, the firm said its summer class was full. Thanks for being on top of things, Dean. At the original meeting, too, he also told me he didn't think doing a mock interview was necessary and swiftly dismissed me from his office. Really, bro? I just fucking struck out at OCI, and I'm probably going to have interviews from furious mass mailing.

I eventually found a job from that mass mailing, but I still hate our CSO. At least try to look competent.

My school is also quite innovative and now has career services people teaching academic classes. Yeah, I totally want my CSO teaching and grading shit instead of doing something to find us jobs. In a low COL area, the CSO Dean makes $175K+, and all of the counselors make in excess of $70K for doing essentially nothing. If you're going to sit around and do jack shit all day, then use some of the excess money to fund short-term jobs or at least do something to earn your paycheck.


What job were you able to find? Was it biglaw?

Also what law school did you attend?

Would really appreciate the info because I want to qualify your statement. It sounds terrifying.


Yes, I got biglaw. I'm at a T25-50.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby Sheffield » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:34 pm

SaintsTheMetal wrote:
Sheffield wrote:Okay folks, let me make this Crayola simple. There are more median students than available jobs. Thus, if you want someone to earnestly represent you, incentivize them. One makes the assumption that when an agent fights for you that you actually have learned something in law school — all you are asking for is the opportunity.


couldn't this be a problem at a school with a lot of people that strike out? Say theres 10 people around median, and then 3 people at the bottom of the class. Most people on commission will probably say fuck it to the people at the bottom of the class and just focus on the more likely paycheck

True. It is the nature of sales people and agents to go after the low hanging fruit. But if the commission on the bottom third of the class is higher, at least these students would not be entirely overlooked.

haus wrote:The mere fact that they would be incentivized to place you would lower their credibility.

You cannot be that dense — they are already paid to promote their students, all the article suggests is that they are paid on results not just piloting a desk.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby haus » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:46 pm

Sheffield wrote:True. It is the nature of sales people and agents to go after the low hanging fruit. But if the commission on the bottom third of the class is higher, at least these students would not be entirely overlooked.

Have you ever redone a bathroom or kitchen?
You may have noticed that the person in the apron spent a fair bit of energy pitching one toilette or dishwasher, for a brief moment this may seem that they have been paying attention to your particular plans/goals and have put together a customized plan to help you. Than 30 seconds later you come to the obvious realization that the sales drone has a SPIFF for this product because some yahoo in purchasing bought a whole warehouse of third rate crud at a discount rater thinking that they would make a killing, unfortunately they realized that no now wants a purple dishwasher that has seals that start leaking on the 4th time that you use the darn thing, hence the SPIFF.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby Sheffield » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:49 pm

haus wrote:
Sheffield wrote:True. It is the nature of sales people and agents to go after the low hanging fruit. But if the commission on the bottom third of the class is higher, at least these students would not be entirely overlooked.

Have you ever redone a bathroom or kitchen?
You may have noticed that the person in the apron spent a fair bit of energy pitching one toilette or dishwasher, for a brief moment this may seem that they have been paying attention to your particular plans/goals and have put together a customized plan to help you. Than 30 seconds later you come to the obvious realization that the sales drone has a SPIFF for this product because some yahoo in purchasing bought a whole warehouse of third rate crud at a discount rater thinking that they would make a killing, unfortunately they realized that no now wants a purple dishwasher that has seals that start leaking on the 4th time that you use the darn thing, hence the SPIFF.

With that gem you are now forever on ignore.

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haus
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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby haus » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:58 pm

Sheffield wrote:With that gem you are now forever on ignore.

Not a loss. As your attention is worth as little as your reasoning.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby Uncle.Joe » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:31 pm

haus your argument is a poor one.

As CSOs are currently run they do almost nothing on behalf of any individual student proactively. You have to go in and make them help you to get anything done. If they had payment incentives to concern themselves with individual outcomes this would likely lead to CSOs taking a more active approach.

If I understand what your saying, you think that the incentive will give them less credibility with employers? I don't really think thats a valid position. Employers a) choose who they are going to interview b) give CSOs the parameters for people they are interested in. CSOs are not doing the hiring.

An incentive would be helpful in making CSOs care about why your individual hiring outcome is coming out poorly. Reaching out to you to do more mock interviewing or work on other job landing skills.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:54 pm

Sheffield wrote:
haus wrote:
Sheffield wrote:True. It is the nature of sales people and agents to go after the low hanging fruit. But if the commission on the bottom third of the class is higher, at least these students would not be entirely overlooked.

Have you ever redone a bathroom or kitchen?
You may have noticed that the person in the apron spent a fair bit of energy pitching one toilette or dishwasher, for a brief moment this may seem that they have been paying attention to your particular plans/goals and have put together a customized plan to help you. Than 30 seconds later you come to the obvious realization that the sales drone has a SPIFF for this product because some yahoo in purchasing bought a whole warehouse of third rate crud at a discount rater thinking that they would make a killing, unfortunately they realized that no now wants a purple dishwasher that has seals that start leaking on the 4th time that you use the darn thing, hence the SPIFF.

With that gem you are now forever on ignore.


Why do you think anyone cares who you have on ignore? Who the fuck are you?

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby Big Dog » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:17 pm

The mere fact that they would be incentivized to place you would lower their credibility.


Yes and no. The fact is that the same internal placer will want to build a relationship with the law firm so s/he can place students in that firm in succeeding years. Thus, the internal headhunter will want to make realistic placements that are win-win.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:33 pm

Big Dog wrote:
The mere fact that they would be incentivized to place you would lower their credibility.


Yes and no. The fact is that the same internal placer will want to build a relationship with the law firm so s/he can place students in that firm in succeeding years. Thus, the internal headhunter will want to make realistic placements that are win-win.


This doesn't happen in real law headhunting. So I wouldn't be so confident.

But, maybe since they are connected with a school (which limits the number of recruiters) it would be different.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:00 pm

Two problems I foresee with market incentives for CSO people.
First, some of them have built connections with firms, recruiters etc. The problem might arise that those CSO people with the connections will want to place their own students to the firms that they have connections with, even if their own student is not ideal, but a student from another CSO officer could have a better chance at the jerb.
Second, it will be soon known which officers are good at their job and which ones are bad. 3Ls and 2Ls will tell 1Ls, hey X guy got almost everyone a job, even if below median, whereas Y person is completely incompetent. Some 1Ls might feel this is unjust, that just because they were placed with the wrong person, they did not or will have more difficulty getting a job.

Now, personally, I am firmly in the group that thinks that there is a limit as to what the CSO can do, and at the very end, responsibility for the jobs remains with the student.
Nevertheless, I understand the 3L Upenn student; I go to a T-14, I struck out, and I have been shocked at the incompetency of the CSO people.

A few things that went wrong.
--My grades, in combination with the firms and market that I bid on, should have led to better results that I got. During OCI (two weeks at my school), I realized by the end of the first week that something was going awfully wrong. My results were horrible even though my GPA was higher or around the median of GPAs that particular firms gave callbacks to. I desperately contacted CSO people for another mock interview, review, advise, to understand why I was so heavily underperforming. They told me they were too busy.

--After striking out, I was told by them not to bother with mass mailing, that it is generally a waste of time, that I should look elsewhere. Really? There is just so much evidence to the contrary for that to be the case. We are talking about September here... how could they give such an advice when in October they sent a list of firms still looking?

--I did "forensic" work to figure why I was doing so badly at OCI. Talked to people in law, 3Ls, people on TLS and a particular 'problem' kept on coming out. I approached CSO about it and they were very defensive and provided the exact opposite advice from what I head from 3Ls, 4Ls (recent lawyers), TLSers etc.

--I had an "emergency" question in relation to an issue with a callback for my CSO. Received a response about a month later.

--I had a business interview a few months ago, and because I was also looking at alternative career paths, I asked my advisor if I could have access to some of the resources of the management school (next door). I specifically wanted to figure out ways of approaching consulting firms and preparing for such interviews. Her response, I will get to you back with an answer by the end of the day. I still do not have an answer or response from her. Since the interview has passed I have rarely bothered even talking to them.

Needless to say, my school removed my CSO advisor the summer before OCI (someone who while some people did not like, I felt was really good with 20 years of experience), and since he was removed, the advisors that I was placed under had about 000 months of career services experience.

I still feel shocked by their level of incompetency. Prior to law school, I had a job (not a prestigious one), and yet even at my job we would not have people that make the type of mistakes that CSO seems to make at my school.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby seespotrun » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
stuckinthemiddle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I don't understand what the Career Services at my school actually does on a day-to-day basis. They send out weekly e-mails with the same cut/paste job listings and career info. If I go into my CSO's office, they have information forms that haven't been updated since the early 2000s. Similarly, the Excel sheets of alumni are severely outdated and are essentially useless.

I was in the top 10% at my school, which should have easily landed me a job at OCI. I'm a shitty interviewer, and it's completely my fault that I didn't prepare at all before OCI. Nonetheless, I met with our Dean of Career Services in early September after striking out, and he flat out told me to give up on biglaw and that I should focus on small firms/government/PI stuff. He did say that I'd have a small chance at a mid-sized firm in my home state because the hiring partner had called him looking for people from my state that attended my school. The Dean asked for my resume, which I e-mailed him almost immediately. A week later, I contacted the Dean to follow up, and he thanked me for reminding me him and notified me that he had just forwarded my resume on. About a week later, the firm said its summer class was full. Thanks for being on top of things, Dean. At the original meeting, too, he also told me he didn't think doing a mock interview was necessary and swiftly dismissed me from his office. Really, bro? I just fucking struck out at OCI, and I'm probably going to have interviews from furious mass mailing.

I eventually found a job from that mass mailing, but I still hate our CSO. At least try to look competent.

My school is also quite innovative and now has career services people teaching academic classes. Yeah, I totally want my CSO teaching and grading shit instead of doing something to find us jobs. In a low COL area, the CSO Dean makes $175K+, and all of the counselors make in excess of $70K for doing essentially nothing. If you're going to sit around and do jack shit all day, then use some of the excess money to fund short-term jobs or at least do something to earn your paycheck.


What job were you able to find? Was it biglaw?

Also what law school did you attend?

Would really appreciate the info because I want to qualify your statement. It sounds terrifying.


Yes, I got biglaw. I'm at a T25-50.

Aka the school that's ranked 50th.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:02 am

seespotrun wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
stuckinthemiddle wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I don't understand what the Career Services at my school actually does on a day-to-day basis. They send out weekly e-mails with the same cut/paste job listings and career info. If I go into my CSO's office, they have information forms that haven't been updated since the early 2000s. Similarly, the Excel sheets of alumni are severely outdated and are essentially useless.

I was in the top 10% at my school, which should have easily landed me a job at OCI. I'm a shitty interviewer, and it's completely my fault that I didn't prepare at all before OCI. Nonetheless, I met with our Dean of Career Services in early September after striking out, and he flat out told me to give up on biglaw and that I should focus on small firms/government/PI stuff. He did say that I'd have a small chance at a mid-sized firm in my home state because the hiring partner had called him looking for people from my state that attended my school. The Dean asked for my resume, which I e-mailed him almost immediately. A week later, I contacted the Dean to follow up, and he thanked me for reminding me him and notified me that he had just forwarded my resume on. About a week later, the firm said its summer class was full. Thanks for being on top of things, Dean. At the original meeting, too, he also told me he didn't think doing a mock interview was necessary and swiftly dismissed me from his office. Really, bro? I just fucking struck out at OCI, and I'm probably going to have interviews from furious mass mailing.

I eventually found a job from that mass mailing, but I still hate our CSO. At least try to look competent.

My school is also quite innovative and now has career services people teaching academic classes. Yeah, I totally want my CSO teaching and grading shit instead of doing something to find us jobs. In a low COL area, the CSO Dean makes $175K+, and all of the counselors make in excess of $70K for doing essentially nothing. If you're going to sit around and do jack shit all day, then use some of the excess money to fund short-term jobs or at least do something to earn your paycheck.


What job were you able to find? Was it biglaw?

Also what law school did you attend?

Would really appreciate the info because I want to qualify your statement. It sounds terrifying.


Yes, I got biglaw. I'm at a T25-50.

Aka the school that's ranked 50th.


Not really, bro.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby Skye » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:28 am

There is obviously an OCS disconnect between schools dependent on OCI and schools that are not. It is evident that OCI dependent schools are highly ranked when it comes to employment stats. At my school OCI is set up for us and aside from a seminar we’re pretty much on our own. Nearly every student has +20 shots at OCI (more if one counts job fairs, etc.).

In the end employment is dependent on choice of school, grades, interviewing and the employment market itself. For those who strike out (like the OP), being at a school with an OCS incentive based concept would probably prove to be an advantage, The OP’s article pretty much supports that concept.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby r6_philly » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:17 pm

Most K-12 students have no idea how to "hustle" for a job, and I suppose OCS staff should take that into account and help accordingly. However, it isn't the sole responsibility of OCS. It takes both parties' involvement.

The funny thing is, as someone who knows how to hustle a job out of thin air, I get the most use of of OCS. When I need something, I pester them until they provide the service I expect. Too many students simply walk into OCS expecting something to happen. And when things don't happen, they get mad.

I have my complaints about my OCS (at Penn), but I absolutely make them work for me. The ATL article makes me chuckle. If you are unhappy with "job of the week," just go on Symplicity daily (I do that and I have a job) to see what's available -- there are like 10-20 postings a day ... do some work on your own, relying on OCS is like waiting for your boss to tell you what to do, it won't get you too far.

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Re: UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:41 pm

r6_philly wrote:Most K-12 students have no idea how to "hustle" for a job, and I suppose OCS staff should take that into account and help accordingly. However, it isn't the sole responsibility of OCS. It takes both parties' involvement.

The funny thing is, as someone who knows how to hustle a job out of thin air, I get the most use of of OCS. When I need something, I pester them until they provide the service I expect. Too many students simply walk into OCS expecting something to happen. And when things don't happen, they get mad.

I have my complaints about my OCS (at Penn), but I absolutely make them work for me. The ATL article makes me chuckle. If you are unhappy with "job of the week," just go on Symplicity daily (I do that and I have a job) to see what's available -- there are like 10-20 postings a day ... do some work on your own, relying on OCS is like waiting for your boss to tell you what to do, it won't get you too far.

Yeah, I agree with this - I do think at least some students have unrealistic expectations about what sort of work they need to put in and what an OCS can actually provide. But I should admit it's a little hard for me to judge, since I was a non-trad with lots of previous experience, and did well enough in school to have decent options. I found them pretty helpful, but I don't know what the office would have felt like to a below-median K-JD who wasn't really sure what they should be doing.

My take on our OCS was that there were a couple people who were good, in that they tried really hard and were very responsive, and one person who was ABYSMAL (thankfully no longer in that position). The irony is that the abysmal person was hired after working for biglaw in the local market for many years and, I think, was intended to create all these connections with our students and the biglaw community. On paper, you'd think this person was exactly what a OCS person should be. But in practice, they were awful. Whereas the people who were really helpful were new to the area and/or hadn't practiced much - so they didn't necessarily have the bigtime connections, but they worked really hard for people. (There is very little genuine biglaw in that market anyway, so that probably plays into what you need a OCS person to be able to do and whether connections are more important than hard work.)




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