UPenn Law student bashing career service on 3L employment Forum

[Anonymous User]

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/revampin ... proposals/

Basically a UPenn Law 3L saying the career service people being totally useless in finding opportunities for many of the 3Ls at UPenn who can't find jobs.

This is pretty sad. I guess the market is still pretty shitty this year.

[Borhas]

I find it kind of odd to rely on career services to do anything other than just provide lists and contact information. I mean, do you expect them to apply for jobs for you, find people that vouch for your character for you, and build your network? I don't get it.

[Aberzombie1892]

Career services is only useful for OCI and putting you in touch with alumni, unless you don't know how to write a resume or how to interview.

Surely this is common knowledge by now.

[Borhas]

Career services is only useful for OCI and putting you in touch with alumni, unless you don't know how to write a resume or how to interview.

Surely this is common knowledge by now.

The Penn student is clearly a dolt, but the ATL article has some good ideas about improving CSOs

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand what the Career Services at my school actually does on a day-to-day basis. They send out weekly e-mails with the same cut/paste job listings and career info. If I go into my CSO's office, they have information forms that haven't been updated since the early 2000s. Similarly, the Excel sheets of alumni are severely outdated and are essentially useless.

I was in the top 10% at my school, which should have easily landed me a job at OCI. I'm a shitty interviewer, and it's completely my fault that I didn't prepare at all before OCI. Nonetheless, I met with our Dean of Career Services in early September after striking out, and he flat out told me to give up on biglaw and that I should focus on small firms/government/PI stuff. He did say that I'd have a small chance at a mid-sized firm in my home state because the hiring partner had called him looking for people from my state that attended my school. The Dean asked for my resume, which I e-mailed him almost immediately. A week later, I contacted the Dean to follow up, and he thanked me for reminding me him and notified me that he had just forwarded my resume on. About a week later, the firm said its summer class was full. Thanks for being on top of things, Dean. At the original meeting, too, he also told me he didn't think doing a mock interview was necessary and swiftly dismissed me from his office. Really, bro? I just fucking struck out at OCI, and I'm probably going to have interviews from furious mass mailing.

I eventually found a job from that mass mailing, but I still hate our CSO. At least try to look competent.

My school is also quite innovative and now has career services people teaching academic classes. Yeah, I totally want my CSO teaching and grading shit instead of doing something to find us jobs. In a low COL area, the CSO Dean makes $175K+, and all of the counselors make in excess of $70K for doing essentially nothing. If you're going to sit around and do jack shit all day, then use some of the excess money to fund short-term jobs or at least do something to earn your paycheck.

[TTRansfer]

Schools could cut tuition a lot by firing all the CDO people.

[stuckinthemiddle]

I don't understand what the Career Services at my school actually does on a day-to-day basis. They send out weekly e-mails with the same cut/paste job listings and career info. If I go into my CSO's office, they have information forms that haven't been updated since the early 2000s. Similarly, the Excel sheets of alumni are severely outdated and are essentially useless.

I was in the top 10% at my school, which should have easily landed me a job at OCI. I'm a shitty interviewer, and it's completely my fault that I didn't prepare at all before OCI. Nonetheless, I met with our Dean of Career Services in early September after striking out, and he flat out told me to give up on biglaw and that I should focus on small firms/government/PI stuff. He did say that I'd have a small chance at a mid-sized firm in my home state because the hiring partner had called him looking for people from my state that attended my school. The Dean asked for my resume, which I e-mailed him almost immediately. A week later, I contacted the Dean to follow up, and he thanked me for reminding me him and notified me that he had just forwarded my resume on. About a week later, the firm said its summer class was full. Thanks for being on top of things, Dean. At the original meeting, too, he also told me he didn't think doing a mock interview was necessary and swiftly dismissed me from his office. Really, bro? I just fucking struck out at OCI, and I'm probably going to have interviews from furious mass mailing.

I eventually found a job from that mass mailing, but I still hate our CSO. At least try to look competent.

My school is also quite innovative and now has career services people teaching academic classes. Yeah, I totally want my CSO teaching and grading shit instead of doing something to find us jobs. In a low COL area, the CSO Dean makes $175K+, and all of the counselors make in excess of $70K for doing essentially nothing. If you're going to sit around and do jack shit all day, then use some of the excess money to fund short-term jobs or at least do something to earn your paycheck.

What job were you able to find? Was it biglaw?

Also what law school did you attend?

Would really appreciate the info because I want to qualify your statement. It sounds terrifying.

[UnfrozenCaveman]

The Dean asked for my resume, which I e-mailed him almost immediately. A week later, I contacted the Dean to follow up, and he thanked me for reminding me him and notified me that he had just forwarded my resume on. About a week later, the firm said its summer class was full. Thanks for being on top of things, Dean.

Don't firms say that all the time just to say they finished hiring but passed on your résumé?

[Sheffield]

...the ATL article has some good ideas about improving CSOs

Agreed. Commission = Competition = How Capitalism Works. A proven concept whose time has come for OCS. OCS AGENTS successfully placing students in firms = commission. OCS desk pilots = 0. The harder the sale, the bigger the commission for the agent.

A law review student earns you nearly zip unless they strike out (over a designated time period) — at that point the OCS agent can step in and earn their keep — law schools can’t/shouldn’t have LR students fall into the vale of tears.

The system could effectively be structured like a rate card…. the students at the bottom third of the pile earn the most sizeable commissions for the agent(s). If this turns out like a normal sales room (think of a car dealership) the agents will be fighting over prospects. Amazing how money motivates people. As it stands now, the OCS person gets paid by pretending to be interested.

[haus]

A law review student earns you nearly zip unless they strike out (over a designated time period) — at that point the OCS agent can step in and earn their keep — law schools can’t/shouldn’t have LR candidates fall into the vale of tears.

Need to proceed with caution. A majority of sales people will lie/cheat/steal to get a bit better hit for this years commission. It takes only a few cycles for the limited customer set to catch onto this and start holding a grudge, thus impacting future graduates. Whereas the sales person takes their short term good numbers to the next job pitching nursing school grads, new MBAs, or fish sticks.

[Sheffield]

Need to proceed with caution. A majority of sales people will lie/cheat/steal to get a bit better hit for this years commission. It takes only a few cycles for the limited customer set to catch onto this and start holding a grudge, thus impacting future graduates. Whereas the sales person takes their short term good numbers to the next job pitching nursing school grads, new MBAs, or fish sticks.

Placing emphasis on your students for an open spot on the law firm is what is supposed to be occurring. Agents can highlight their students in an open honest way. A commission based system simply creates the incentive to hustle.

[Anonymous User]

i am not sure if there is correlation but it seems that some CDO people all have newly minted JD' but no legal experience...
wouldnt it be better to have CDO people that actually know how to get a jerb at a law firm? seems they work at the CDO b/c they couldnt find a jerb... if that is the case, its the blind leading the blind. i know of a V15 Legal Recruiter whose dream job is to leave the firm and work at the CDO... that is the type of CDO that the students need... that and commish % competition.

in any case, i dont lean on the CDO b/c after the first time I went there and they gave me some bush league resume advice, i realized they suck major air and havent stepped a foot in their office since. all my cover letter/ resume advice has come from mass mailing V5 -V100 law firm recruiters and asking for their time... the advice these legal recruiters have given me has been pure fucking gold.

note: the CDO/OCI should be your backup plan, not your primary plan

[09042014]

Headhunters exist and they don't take your career into account. It's all about that fat check.

[Anonymous User]

I was actively hurt in my job search by my CDO/CSO. After I struck out at OCI, and the office knew, they were called a few times by firms looking for summers. I had asked them before to tell me if that happened so I could send a resume along. They never notified me once and started sending me the same jobs they were sending 1Ls. I was already proceeding without them but it sucks to know how little they care.

[haus]

Placing emphasis on your students for an open spot on the law firm is what is supposed to be occurring. Agents can highlight their students in an open honest way like damaged goods that the huckster is attempting to ditch. A commission based system simply creates the incentive to hustle provides an opportunity to make a quick buck at the cost of everyone else in the transaction.

Look at the percentage of people who trust car salesmen. Or in my industry, take a look at the percentage of purchasing managers who trust enterprise IT software sales folks. (Hint: this would be a low number)

[Sheffield]

Look at the percentage of people who trust car salesmen. Or in my industry, take a look at the percentage of purchasing managers who trust enterprise IT software sales folks. (Hint: this would be a low number)

Got it — you don’t like sales people. Guess all those sports figures, Hollywood celebrities, etc. need to fire their agents ASAP.....

[Anonymous User]

Placing emphasis on your students for an open spot on the law firm is what is supposed to be occurring. Agents can highlight their students in an open honest way like damaged goods that the huckster is attempting to ditch. A commission based system simply creates the incentive to hustle.

Look at the percentage of people who trust car salesmen. Or in my industry, take a look at the percentage of purchasing managers who trust enterprise IT software sales folks. (Hint: this would be a low number)

salesman =/= recruiters.... different ballgame

i have recruiter friends that are recruit specifically for TS/ SCI caliber software engineering and other IT related jobs... if they routinely place incompetent people, they loose money b/c the contractor will move to another agent and/or they will get fired.... he has ZERO incentive to be an "untrustworthy car salesman" B/C he makes salary + commish.

[haus]

Placing emphasis on your students for an open spot on the law firm is what is supposed to be occurring. Agents can highlight their students in an open honest way like damaged goods that the huckster is attempting to ditch. A commission based system simply creates the incentive to hustle.

Look at the percentage of people who trust car salesmen. Or in my industry, take a look at the percentage of purchasing managers who trust enterprise IT software sales folks. (Hint: this would be a low number)

salesman =/= recruiters.... different ballgame

i have recruiter friends that are recruit specifically for TS/ SCI caliber software engineering and other IT related jobs... if they routinely place incompetent people, they loose money b/c the contractor will move to another agent and/or they will get fired.... he has ZERO incentive to be an "untrustworthy car salesman" B/C he makes salary + commish.

Not true in my experience. The quality of recruiters has been fairly low, false and or misleading representation is just about par for the course. The dreck that has been sent to me for special projects has been comical. This is not to say the quality does not exist, but it is far more rare than it should be.

[Anonymous User]

Not true in my experience. The quality of recruiters has been fairly low, false and or misleading representation is just about par for the course. The dreck that has been sent to me for special projects has been comical. This is not to say the quality does not exist, but it is far more rare than it should be.

well, it seems that there are good recruiters and there are bad recruiters ... i see your point because i too have seen my fair share of sub-quality hires in the IT field...that said, i think the real question is how to turn the CDO in to a machine that actually is productive for the average law student... otherwise they should not be called the CDO, they should just be the "office that organizes OCI once or twice a year"

[Myself]

.

[haus]

Not true in my experience. The quality of recruiters has been fairly low, false and or misleading representation is just about par for the course. The dreck that has been sent to me for special projects has been comical. This is not to say the quality does not exist, but it is far more rare than it should be.

well, it seems that there are good recruiters and there are bad recruiters ... i see your point because i too have seen my fair share of sub-quality hires in the IT field...that said, i think the real question is how to turn the CDO in to a machine that actually is productive for the average law student... otherwise they should not be called the CDO, they should just be the "office that organizes OCI once or twice a year"

I would like to see the incentives for the schools to change. Perhaps is USNEWS ditched there concerns about things such as facility expenditures and made employment outcomes relative to debt one of the largest measurments, things would change.

Some schools might focus on better employment connections, others may focus on lowering cost, perhaps some may attempt to split the diffrence. My point is that the incentive change needs to be larger than that of a few individuals fighting for next quarters bonus.

Because a disturbingly high portion of people are simply untrustworthy aligning incentives of different groups is surprisingly difficult. If you decide to pay for some indicator, you are quite likely to get more of it (at least in the short term), but if there is an easier way to move this indicator than the way you are hoping for you can almost garuntee that the easy way out will be used, irregardless of the damage that it causes.

[Sheffield]

Okay folks, let me make this Crayola simple. There are more median students than available jobs. Thus, if you want someone to earnestly represent you, incentivize them. One makes the assumption that when an agent fights for you that you actually have learned something in law school — all you are asking for is the opportunity.

[haus]

Okay folks, let me make this Crayola simple. There are more median students than available jobs. Thus, if you want someone to earnestly represent you, incentivize them. One makes the assumption that when an agent fights for you that you actually have learned something in law school — all you are asking for is the opportunity.

The mere fact that they would be incentivized to place you would lower their credibility.

[SaintsTheMetal]

Okay folks, let me make this Crayola simple. There are more median students than available jobs. Thus, if you want someone to earnestly represent you, incentivize them. One makes the assumption that when an agent fights for you that you actually have learned something in law school — all you are asking for is the opportunity.

couldn't this be a problem at a school with a lot of people that strike out? Say theres 10 people around median, and then 3 people at the bottom of the class. Most people on commission will probably say fuck it to the people at the bottom of the class and just focus on the more likely paycheck

[$$$$$$]

At my T-14, career services was nothing more than a sounding board for my pain and a cheerleader in times of doubt, and when I actually got a job. Many of them had careers in big law and other contacts from many different industries and only one was even willing to connect me to one of those people and it was in a very roundabout and useless way. Career services at law school are useless and I would not rely on them (and didn't) for finding a job outside of OCI. However, when you pay $50K a year for a professional school, you think that the people paid to help you find jobs would not be utterly useless. I think that my list of alumni contacts is currently better than the one that the school has on file for students looking to network, pretty pathetic.