What do you do as a 3L without a job?

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Ludo!
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Re: What do you do as a 3L without a job?

Postby Ludo! » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:24 pm

Objection wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:OP here: I don't think what the above poster said is my problem. When I went to one callback, there were like 10 other people in line with me for it. They only offered SA positions for 2 people. Apparently, they had also already conducted callbacks for people weeks before I did, and I was scheduled for the last day of callbacks. Also, it turned out that an offer was already made for one of the positions even before I interviewed.

I don't think it was a job I didn't get due to bad interviewing skills. I know I have good interviewing skills- it's how I got my current job at the government, a position which is actually pretty competitive. Unfortunately, the government is not hiring full-time attorneys now, what with the sequester and lack of funding.



Wait, in the OP you said you don't have a job. Now you have a current job in the government? Summer internships that won't turn into full positions don't really count as "jobs," and if they're in the past, they're not current.

Maybe you're misspeaking and being totally honest. I think you might be in denial.



Maybe he has a job during the school year that is not a permanent post-grad job. That's the situation I'm in

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Objection
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Re: What do you do as a 3L without a job?

Postby Objection » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:34 pm

Then I imagine he's overplaying how competitive it was to get a job during the school year (and I'm not counting clinics that place you with government agencies as jobs). Not many people seem to want to work during law school, and when they do, the spots seem to be plenty (hell, federal judges sometimes hire 6+ interns each).

But maybe I'm wrong. I just rarely hear of people actively working during school, which makes me think it's probably not that competitive.

I also suspect he was referring to this job:

Worked for the Government over the last summer, but with the sequester and stuff, I'm not going to be getting a gov attorney job after graduation.

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bowser
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Re: What do you do as a 3L without a job?

Postby bowser » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:43 pm

Objection wrote:
The fact of the matter is that, if you're being honest about your background, and you've had some callbacks, you would have secured something if you had better interviews. Everyone they brought in was "hire-able." So those 10 people brought in for the callback? All hire-able, and I doubt they would have brought you in if your credentials weren't competitive with theirs. So you didn't interview well enough. Is it a similar story elsewhere?

Not trying to be rude, but there's something going on that's unrelated to your credentials (which seem very good) that's preventing you from getting hired, and it's not just the economy. Whether it's interviewing or something you're not sharing with us, who knows?

Are you being too selective? The Vault isn't the end-all, be-all of law firms. Many firms keep a low profile hoping the people that apply to them will be the self-selecting group that really want to work there. Dig into CSM, dig into NALP, dig into Chambers. Lots of law firms out there that would kill for top 20 talent, they just don't make the Vault list.


What? OP's story seems quite plausible. They didn't hire more than a couple of people from those they gave callbacks to.

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Re: What do you do as a 3L without a job?

Postby Objection » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:53 pm

bowser wrote:
Objection wrote:
The fact of the matter is that, if you're being honest about your background, and you've had some callbacks, you would have secured something if you had better interviews. Everyone they brought in was "hire-able." So those 10 people brought in for the callback? All hire-able, and I doubt they would have brought you in if your credentials weren't competitive with theirs. So you didn't interview well enough. Is it a similar story elsewhere?

Not trying to be rude, but there's something going on that's unrelated to your credentials (which seem very good) that's preventing you from getting hired, and it's not just the economy. Whether it's interviewing or something you're not sharing with us, who knows?

Are you being too selective? The Vault isn't the end-all, be-all of law firms. Many firms keep a low profile hoping the people that apply to them will be the self-selecting group that really want to work there. Dig into CSM, dig into NALP, dig into Chambers. Lots of law firms out there that would kill for top 20 talent, they just don't make the Vault list.


What? OP's story seems quite plausible. They didn't hire more than a couple of people from those they gave callbacks to.


Yes, but at the callback stage, that almost certainly wasn't due to his credentials. The two who got the job interviewed better.

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Re: What do you do as a 3L without a job?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:01 pm

Objection wrote:Yes, but at the callback stage, that almost certainly wasn't due to his credentials. The two who got the job interviewed better.

Maybe, but maybe not. Just because all those who get called back have sufficient credentials to get the job doesn't make them all the same or completely interchangeable. Maybe one of them had pre-LS WE that the OP didn't have, that made them a more appealing candidate. Maybe one of them had connections that helped. Maybe one went to the same UG as an interviewer. Maybe one of the hotshot partners thinks whatever the OP majored in is a bogus major. Maybe everyone interviewed equally well, so the firm picked the 2 with the highest GPAs and so tenths or one-hundredths of a point made the difference. I don't think it's a given that the OP blew the interview.

Besides, "interviewing well" is also kind of context dependent - firms have different cultures. Some firms like fratty bros, some don't. Some firms like people with more WE, some firms like shiny newbies who are malleable and can be trained just the way they like them. Some firms want aggressive alpha types, other want to hire people the aggressive alphas can boss around. I mean, I'm exaggerating a little, but while there are general rules about what's good/bad to do in an interview, if you're faced with 10 equally qualified candidates you have to end up picking based on fit. And whether someone fits with one firm doesn't necessarily mean they won't fit with another.

Edit to add: which isn't to say that it's definitely not interview skills. It's just that ITE, not getting anything out of callbacks doesn't necessarily mean you're a crap interviewer. I would want to know more about how many callbacks with what kinds of firms and what school/markets are involved before saying definitively it's interview skills.
Last edited by A. Nony Mouse on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What do you do as a 3L without a job?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:09 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Objection wrote:Yes, but at the callback stage, that almost certainly wasn't due to his credentials. The two who got the job interviewed better.

Maybe, but maybe not. Just because all those who get called back have sufficient credentials to get the job doesn't make them all the same or completely interchangeable. Maybe one of them had pre-LS WE that the OP didn't have, that made them a more appealing candidate. Maybe one of them had connections that helped. Maybe one went to the same UG as an interviewer. Maybe one of the hotshot partners thinks whatever the OP majored in is a bogus major. Maybe everyone interviewed equally well, so the firm picked the 2 with the highest GPAs and so tenths or one-hundredths of a point made the difference. I don't think it's a given that the OP blew the interview.

Besides, "interviewing well" is also kind of context dependent - firms have different cultures. Some firms like fratty bros, some don't. Some firms like people with more WE, some firms like shiny newbies who are malleable and can be trained just the way they like them. Some firms want aggressive alpha types, other want to hire people the aggressive alphas can boss around. I mean, I'm exaggerating a little, but while there are general rules about what's good/bad to do in an interview, if you're faced with 10 equally qualified candidates you have to end up picking based on fit. And whether someone fits with one firm doesn't necessarily mean they won't fit with another.


And if this has happened multiple times, then there are other problems. He's picking firms without having an idea of the culture, or he's doing something or saying something in a way that none of these firms think he "fits."

I'm also not saying he blew the interview, I'm saying in all likelihood he didn't knock it out of the park. Being able to interview well is more important than anything else once you hit the callback phase.

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Re: What do you do as a 3L without a job?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Objection wrote:Yes, but at the callback stage, that almost certainly wasn't due to his credentials. The two who got the job interviewed better.

Maybe, but maybe not. Just because all those who get called back have sufficient credentials to get the job doesn't make them all the same or completely interchangeable. Maybe one of them had pre-LS WE that the OP didn't have, that made them a more appealing candidate. Maybe one of them had connections that helped. Maybe one went to the same UG as an interviewer. Maybe one of the hotshot partners thinks whatever the OP majored in is a bogus major. Maybe everyone interviewed equally well, so the firm picked the 2 with the highest GPAs and so tenths or one-hundredths of a point made the difference. I don't think it's a given that the OP blew the interview.

Besides, "interviewing well" is also kind of context dependent - firms have different cultures. Some firms like fratty bros, some don't. Some firms like people with more WE, some firms like shiny newbies who are malleable and can be trained just the way they like them. Some firms want aggressive alpha types, other want to hire people the aggressive alphas can boss around. I mean, I'm exaggerating a little, but while there are general rules about what's good/bad to do in an interview, if you're faced with 10 equally qualified candidates you have to end up picking based on fit. And whether someone fits with one firm doesn't necessarily mean they won't fit with another.


And if this has happened multiple times, then there are other problems. He's picking firms without having an idea of the culture, or he's doing something or saying something in a way that none of these firms think he "fits."

I'm also not saying he blew the interview, I'm saying in all likelihood he didn't knock it out of the park. Being able to interview well is more important than anything else once you hit the callback phase.

Yeah, I edited while you were posting to address some of this. I agree to a certain extent. I do think it's possible just to have bad luck - I'm assuming in a given year, there are more people, total, getting callbacks than there are SA slots available (even though people get callbacks at multiple firms), and someone has to end up being unlucky. But interview skills are worth looking at, definitely.

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Re: What do you do as a 3L without a job?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:52 pm

OP here: What most people here are saying is correct. Given the number of people who applied to the job and recieved callbacks, and given that they had already filled 1 of the 2 positions before I even interviewed, it was a very low chance I would get hired. I should also add that I did not have that many callbacks in my 1L year. My grades were good, but not THAT good.

Definitely not being selective either. I've been applying to everything. The only way I have been selective is in the locations of those jobs. So far, my desire is to live in one of 3 big cities I've lived in before, and I've centered my search around those cities, and 2 additional cities I've never been to.

To clarify on the job I have now, it started as a summer job with the government, and I remained with them throughout my 3L year. It was definitely not easy to get, I can tell you that it's a very competitive position and I had to go through multiple rounds of interviews to get here. But, thanks to Congress, the government is not going to be hiring that many attorneys anytime soon. So I can't just sit back and hope they'll hire me, because so far I've recieved no indication that they will.




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