Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

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Lasers
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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby Lasers » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I'm slightly above median. I'm having a hard time interpreting the GPA cutoffs, because if I read them strictly I only seem to be in the running for less than 10 firms. Putting aside competitive bidding, what firms range are simply out of the running for me? Or to put a more optimistic spin on it, what are some of the better firms I should still throw a bid at?


Bumping this. Anyone have insight?

Also, being medianish, is it extremely unwise not to bid on one of the really unselective firms because I would never ever want to work there?
which firms are considered really unselective firms?

Anonymous User
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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:12 am

Lasers wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I'm slightly above median. I'm having a hard time interpreting the GPA cutoffs, because if I read them strictly I only seem to be in the running for less than 10 firms. Putting aside competitive bidding, what firms range are simply out of the running for me? Or to put a more optimistic spin on it, what are some of the better firms I should still throw a bid at?


Bumping this. Anyone have insight?

Also, being medianish, is it extremely unwise not to bid on one of the really unselective firms because I would never ever want to work there?
which firms are considered really unselective firms?


Like Nixon or Seward

oblig.lawl.ref
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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
BuckinghamB wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I'm slightly above median. I'm having a hard time interpreting the GPA cutoffs, because if I read them strictly I only seem to be in the running for less than 10 firms. Putting aside competitive bidding, what firms range are simply out of the running for me? Or to put a more optimistic spin on it, what are some of the better firms I should still throw a bid at?


by cutoffs do you mean the median gpas for offers, or bottom quartile?


I mean the median/mean GPAs. I know i'm not competitive for basically any firm at OCI, so it will be hard to create a bid list, but i'm curious which are strictly no-goes. Like i said, if you read the cutoffs, basically every firm is a no go.


Hey guyz,

I'm not sure why you are accounting for cut-offs like this. It seems to me that a cut-off is when its lowest offered gpa is really close to its bottom 25th quartile gpa. For an example, see MoFo or Quinn. If I remember correctly those firm's lowest gpa with an offer is very close to their 25th quartile--at least for MoFo SF and Quinn LA. So I assume that the cut off for a firm like that is around the lowest quartile.

I don't think I would assume a median offered gpa is a "cut-off," particularly for a firm with dozens of offers because there are likely lots of people with gpas below that median and offers.

Also I thought the school released the medians for the classes. For example I thought the 1L curve for Fall 2012 was like 3.23 or something? No?

oblig.lawl.ref
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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Lasers wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I'm slightly above median. I'm having a hard time interpreting the GPA cutoffs, because if I read them strictly I only seem to be in the running for less than 10 firms. Putting aside competitive bidding, what firms range are simply out of the running for me? Or to put a more optimistic spin on it, what are some of the better firms I should still throw a bid at?


Bumping this. Anyone have insight?

Also, being medianish, is it extremely unwise not to bid on one of the really unselective firms because I would never ever want to work there?
which firms are considered really unselective firms?


Like Nixon or Seward


Also, this is probably somewhat market specific. Knowing a market would help. The law school provides a lot of resources for info like this.

Anonymous User
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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:27 am

oblig.lawl.ref wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BuckinghamB wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So I'm slightly above median. I'm having a hard time interpreting the GPA cutoffs, because if I read them strictly I only seem to be in the running for less than 10 firms. Putting aside competitive bidding, what firms range are simply out of the running for me? Or to put a more optimistic spin on it, what are some of the better firms I should still throw a bid at?


by cutoffs do you mean the median gpas for offers, or bottom quartile?


I mean the median/mean GPAs. I know i'm not competitive for basically any firm at OCI, so it will be hard to create a bid list, but i'm curious which are strictly no-goes. Like i said, if you read the cutoffs, basically every firm is a no go.


Hey guyz,

I'm not sure why you are accounting for cut-offs like this. It seems to me that a cut-off is when its lowest offered gpa is really close to its bottom 25th quartile gpa. For an example, see MoFo or Quinn. If I remember correctly those firm's lowest gpa with an offer is very close to their 25th quartile--at least for MoFo SF and Quinn LA. So I assume that the cut off for a firm like that is around the lowest quartile.

I don't think I would assume a median offered gpa is a "cut-off," particularly for a firm with dozens of offers because there are likely lots of people with gpas below that median and offers.

Also I thought the school released the medians for the classes. For example I thought the 1L curve for Fall 2012 was like 3.23 or something? No?


I'm accounting for cutoffs like this because both career services and 3Ls have told me to. Apparently much of the offers that drag down the low and 25th percentile are from exceptions/minority hires etc, and so even the means will be generous.

oblig.lawl.ref
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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:54 am

Ok, if you want to account for it like that that's fine. And It's true that a lot of the lowest gpa's are gonna be diversity/ip/special things but like I said if you're interpreting the median at a firm that offered like 25 people to be their "cut-off" you've got to be doing it wrong and if OCP told you that they're wrong.

Just think about it--how can it be a cut-off when half of all the offers they've ever given out were below it? A cut-off is generally the minimum gpa to which they will give an offer. Look at diversity information--half of the firm's SAs are not diversity. So it doesn't make sense to assume everyone below median--or even close to that--are "special."

Median is median. Cut-off is something else. I wouldn't equate the two. But hey if you wanna bid on that premise, it's no problem for me.

ETA: I may not be understanding what you're saying. Just to be clear what I'm saying is that median and means do not represent the cut-off. I am not saying the lowest offered GPA or the bottom quartile GPA represents the cut-off. I am saying the bottom quartile is probably a hell of a lot closer to the cut-off in most firms because it is unlikely that more than 25% of their offers are given to people with mitigating or special circumstances.

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DaftAndDirect
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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby DaftAndDirect » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:02 pm

According to many employed and recently graduated M students, median/mean is still the most valuable metric for gauging your chances at OCI, even though it is not technically a "cut-off" for all the reasons previously mentioned.

As a rule of thumb, I've heard you want your GPA to be just above median to be competitive for that firm. Of course it's a sliding scale depending on how stellar your interviewing skills/ other credentials are. However, if you're an average candidate (non-LR, non-moot court champ, little to no relevant WE), then I think the rule applies.

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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:11 pm

DaftAndDirect wrote:According to many employed and recently graduated M students, median/mean is still the most valuable metric for gauging your chances at OCI, even though it is not technically a "cut-off" for all the reasons previously mentioned.

As a rule of thumb, I've heard you want your GPA to be just above median to be competitive for that firm. Of course it's a sliding scale depending on how stellar your interviewing skills/ other credentials are. However, if you're an average candidate (non-LR, non-moot court champ, little to no relevant WE), then I think the rule applies.


Exactly, this is what I heard. So this takes me back to my original question: if you're just slightly above median, by using this approach to bidding there are literally less than 10 firms in NY that you are competitive for, so how the hell do you structure the rest of your bid list?

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Bronte
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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby Bronte » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Exactly, this is what I heard. So this takes me back to my original question: if you're just slightly above median, by using this approach to bidding there are literally less than 10 firms in NY that you are competitive for, so how the hell do you structure the rest of your bid list?


In that case, you'll want to fill out the rest of your bid list with reach firms (obviously where you're as close as possible to their median). Put the 10 that are targets at the top of the list.

oblig.lawl.ref
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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:50 pm

Bronte wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Exactly, this is what I heard. So this takes me back to my original question: if you're just slightly above median, by using this approach to bidding there are literally less than 10 firms in NY that you are competitive for, so how the hell do you structure the rest of your bid list?


In that case, you'll want to fill out the rest of your bid list with reach firms (obviously where you're as close as possible to their median). Put the 10 that are targets at the top of the list.


Rising 2L disclaimer...

Being median means you're not "competitive" for most firms. That's the nature of median, unfortunately. But you should take solace in the fact you're not below a "cut-off." That was the distinction I had in mind in our earlier discussion re cut-offs. Being below a "cut-off" for a firm is not the same as not being "competitive."

Like Bronte said, it's relatively simple--you put the firms that you are at median highest and after that the closer you are to a firm's median, the higher you rank it.

I'd also recommend going through the list OCP linked to in its 4th email to us with info from last year's bidding. The one that showed how many people bid on how many spots. Of course the info is likely to be different this year as certain offices may have more interview slots available and popularity of firms may wane but when you are debating exactly where to list a firm it may help to know that they only interviewed a small number of students at Michigan last year.

HTH

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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I definitely think I can bring it to slightly above median (3.3 at the lowest, and 3.35 best case scenario barring some miracle), by the time OCI rolls around.

I'm just terrified that if I do end up at median I will be screwed.

I am going to try to write on for LR, I'm doing a moot court competition, and I'm the co-chair of an org. Very involved on campus. I'm not horribly awkward or anything.


I was in your shoes last summer at OCI (T 14 school ranked below Michigan). I was slightly below median. I got 5 callbacks and only one offer. The offer was at one of my top choices. I am working there in NYC this summer and loving it. Just had mid summer reviews and mine was excellent. Don't give up!

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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:41 pm

oblig.lawl.ref wrote:
Bronte wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Exactly, this is what I heard. So this takes me back to my original question: if you're just slightly above median, by using this approach to bidding there are literally less than 10 firms in NY that you are competitive for, so how the hell do you structure the rest of your bid list?


In that case, you'll want to fill out the rest of your bid list with reach firms (obviously where you're as close as possible to their median). Put the 10 that are targets at the top of the list.


Rising 2L disclaimer...

Being median means you're not "competitive" for most firms. That's the nature of median, unfortunately. But you should take solace in the fact you're not below a "cut-off." That was the distinction I had in mind in our earlier discussion re cut-offs. Being below a "cut-off" for a firm is not the same as not being "competitive."

Like Bronte said, it's relatively simple--you put the firms that you are at median highest and after that the closer you are to a firm's median, the higher you rank it.

I'd also recommend going through the list OCP linked to in its 4th email to us with info from last year's bidding. The one that showed how many people bid on how many spots. Of course the info is likely to be different this year as certain offices may have more interview slots available and popularity of firms may wane but when you are debating exactly where to list a firm it may help to know that they only interviewed a small number of students at Michigan last year.

HTH


Thanks, this is helpful.

09042014
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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:06 pm

It's not helpful to think of recruiting in cut-offs because 1) many firms don't appear to use one and 2) even if they do it's not all that helpful.

Callback medians are better because it at least gives you an idea of what types of GPAs that firm is comfortable with. But, you gotta do more than just rely on it. You have to do some common sense analysis on it. Firms who call back 1-2 have pretty unstable medians. They could not care about grades but just happen to fall in love with 2 people with 3.7's so their median is 3.7. Or a firm that is typically very selective, but small might call back 3 people, 2 of them diversity candidates that cured cancer, and might have too low.

I think a good rule of thumb is take the median and subtract .15-.2 (at NW the common wisdom is .2 but you guys have a tighter curve than us, so maybe .15 or less). Any lower than that and you usually face a big up hill battle. Of course there are exceptions. And you shouldn't be afraid to big on ~3 firms that seem like a good fit but also seem like a bit out of your range.

But the reverse isn't really true. Don't load up on a bunch of firms that have low medians just because you are above them. A firm who doesn't care about grades all that much, typically doesn't then find decent grades all that impressive. It makes sense, if they thought grades were very important, they wouldn't take people with poorer grades.

You want to include at least several big, fairly unselective firms.

You want to include firms you think you think would be a good fit. If you worked at the Dept. of Labor, you should probably bid Morgan Lewis, Jones Day, Paul Hastings, Proskauer because they all do a lot of employment and labor stuff. So in the interview you can talk that shit up.

Like I said before a few, but not a lot, of firms who you think you have a long shot with.

Do not fall into the trap of chasing firms with low medians, who also have a low number of SA slots (unless you think you and the firm are a good fit). Someone mentioned Nixon Peabody. Sure their median is low, but they take 3 people for their NYC office. That means they are maybe calling back 1-2 people from each T14.

An aside on bidding game theory:

Figure out where in the bid list people typically stop getting interviews at major market firms. For example, at NU after bid slot 15, you just can't going to get a Chicago, NYC, or CA firm (other than super selective firms). So at NU (I dunno how mich works), you really wanna but targets at slots 0-10. Then you put reaches 10-15, extreme targets 15-20. But you can also try to get some secondary market interviews (since you aren't going to get major market) by putting them from 15 and up.

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DaftAndDirect
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Re: Median @ Michigan + Chances at BigLaw

Postby DaftAndDirect » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:13 pm

+1

Thanks DF




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