Tax LLM

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marko
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:32 am

Re: Tax LLM

Postby marko » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What is exactly the starting salary (w/LLM) at big 4?


I've heard that it's around 70-80k. You'd take care of some legal work but you also do a lot of consulting.


Mine is 100K+, and I do not even have an LLM. I believe that big4 are trying to upgrade their tax law depts to compete with law firms.


I know it is 70-80k as entry level in major market (think SF/LA etc) but if you have prior experience or something, you can negotiate upwards.



I thought it makes a difference which department you are in. Some speciality departments ie. international tax, m&a.. may pay higher then others.

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cigarman
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby cigarman » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:01 pm

Tax Lawyer, Certificate in Taxation with JD, GULC Tax LLM +employee benefit law currently... here. I don't see anyone asking the posters the very basic questions:
1) Have you taken Federal Income tax? JDs ask me all the time if they should get a tax LLM, but never took federal tax. You can't be admitted without it to the Tax LLM programs! Game over.
2) Did you get an A (or better) in Federal tax... if not GAME OVER.
3) Did you ever take a real "code" course? (evidence doesn't count). Do you know code is very detail oriented and can be tedious (read boring?) Did you "love con law!" or "love crim law"... you are going to HATE tax. This isn't a color outside the lines and argue field. Its what you do inside the lines and push the lines that counts.
4) Do you know what a "romanette" is?
5) We can do math. 92% of you can't.
6) If you have Asperger's or tourettes... WINNER!
6(A)ii(a)3(I)(p) Did that excite you?

Questions?

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2014
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby 2014 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:06 pm

cigarman wrote:Tax Lawyer, Certificate in Taxation with JD, GULC Tax LLM +employee benefit law currently... here. I don't see anyone asking the posters the very basic questions:
1) Have you taken Federal Income tax? JDs ask me all the time if they should get a tax LLM, but never took federal tax. You can't be admitted without it to the Tax LLM programs! Game over.
2) Did you get an A (or better) in Federal tax... if not GAME OVER.
3) Did you ever take a real "code" course? (evidence doesn't count). Do you know code is very detail oriented and can be tedious (read boring?) Did you "love con law!" or "love crim law"... you are going to HATE tax. This isn't a color outside the lines and argue field. Its what you do inside the lines and push the lines that counts.
4) Do you know what a "romanette" is?
5) We can do math. 92% of you can't.
6) If you have Asperger's or tourettes... WINNER!
6(A)ii(a)3(I)(p) Did that excite you?

Questions?

What's the rough breakdown of law schools your LLM classmates went to?
What's the breakdown of people who are there because their firm asked them to take it/paid for them to take it and those who are using it to try and get a new job?

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patrickd139
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:21 am

cigarman wrote:Tax Lawyer, Certificate in Taxation with JD, GULC Tax LLM +employee benefit law currently... here. I don't see anyone asking the posters the very basic questions:
1) Have you taken Federal Income tax? JDs ask me all the time if they should get a tax LLM, but never took federal tax. You can't be admitted without it to the Tax LLM programs! Game over.
2) Did you get an A (or better) in Federal tax... if not GAME OVER.
3) Did you ever take a real "code" course? (evidence doesn't count). Do you know code is very detail oriented and can be tedious (read boring?) Did you "love con law!" or "love crim law"... you are going to HATE tax. This isn't a color outside the lines and argue field. Its what you do inside the lines and push the lines that counts.
4) Do you know what a "romanette" is?
5) We can do math. 92% of you can't.
6) If you have Asperger's or tourettes... WINNER!
6(A)ii(a)3(I)(p) Did that excite you?

Questions?

On the off chance this isn't trolling (I can never tell these days), you can disregard pretty much this entire post. Specifically, nos. 1, 2, and most all of 3 are just wrong.

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nealric
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby nealric » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:48 am

cigarman wrote:Tax Lawyer, Certificate in Taxation with JD, GULC Tax LLM +employee benefit law currently... here. I don't see anyone asking the posters the very basic questions:
1) Have you taken Federal Income tax? JDs ask me all the time if they should get a tax LLM, but never took federal tax. You can't be admitted without it to the Tax LLM programs! Game over.
2) Did you get an A (or better) in Federal tax... if not GAME OVER.
3) Did you ever take a real "code" course? (evidence doesn't count). Do you know code is very detail oriented and can be tedious (read boring?) Did you "love con law!" or "love crim law"... you are going to HATE tax. This isn't a color outside the lines and argue field. Its what you do inside the lines and push the lines that counts.
4) Do you know what a "romanette" is?
5) We can do math. 92% of you can't.
6) If you have Asperger's or tourettes... WINNER!
6(A)ii(a)3(I)(p) Did that excite you?

Questions?


Tax lawyer as well with a JD and LLM from GULC. Would like to disagree on some of your points.

2) I got a B+ in fed tax I. It was no big deal. Still graduated from the LLM program with distinction.
5) 95% of the work I do as a corporate tax lawyer does not involve any mathematical heavy lifting. As innumerate as many law students are, I think most can handle the arithmetic and basic algebra involved in tax if they are willing to.
6) My experience is that the Asperger's cases don't actually do all that well. If you can't communicate to your client, you are not going far.

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cigarman
Posts: 36
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby cigarman » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:27 am

Questions?[/quote]
What's the rough breakdown of law schools your LLM classmates went to?
What's the breakdown of people who are there because their firm asked them to take it/paid for them to take it and those who are using it to try and get a new job?[/quote]

There really doesn't seem to be a hard pattern of where they went to school, just that they tended to have graduated in the top maybe 25% of their class and exhibited a strong interest in tax. Or Graduated higher up and took Fed Tax and got a good grade. Basically more tax classes as JD equals less need to score near top in JD, if that makes sense.
AT GULC in my classes, almost everyone works for the federal govt. As for who is using it to get a new job? All of them!

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cigarman
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby cigarman » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:44 am

quote]
On the off chance this isn't trolling (I can never tell these days), you can disregard pretty much this entire post. Specifically, nos. 1, 2, and most all of 3 are just wrong.[/quote]

Look, I don't want to dislike you. I love a TEXAS/NYU tax LLM combo. Thinks its $$$$. However, Lets prove I am not trolling this young people.

From NYU's website:

Specific Requirements

Traditionally students have take another law school's course in basic income taxation prior to enrolling. Tax LL.M. students will not be permitted to enroll in the basic income tax course at NYU. NYU does offer a zero-credit online course called "Survey of Income Taxation" for an additional fee. Students may register for this survey course in order to fulfill this requirement. In rare cases self-study may be an option, typically for students with some tax work experience but no formal academic background.

I wont bother posting other schools. This should be enough to show this is truth in what I posted in my list. If we are playing "internet nit pick", yes it is in THEORY possible to get in as a domestic student without taking federal income tax.
But... That's not reality. NYU for example is overrun with applications from VERY qualified people. People that have show they are very interested or already work in tax. Not having taken it and done well, shows admissions you didn't care in JD and were Jonny come lately to the idea, probably because you cant get a job.
Sure, Maybe if you come from a t-14 and take the summer course, they might let you into the online "executive program" or something. But the very fact they don't ALLOW LLMS to take the class at NYU is a clue...
There is a question on the application asking if you took federal income tax. That's another clue.
I didn't get into NYU with 22 hours of JD tax courses all A's and graduating in the top ten percent of my class, because of the rank of my JD school.
TAX LLM programs are highly competitive, unlike all the other LLMS where they beg you to take your money.

Point made, moving on.

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cigarman
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby cigarman » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:54 am

Tax lawyer as well with a JD and LLM from GULC. Would like to disagree on some of your points.

2) I got a B+ in fed tax I. It was no big deal. Still graduated from the LLM program with distinction.
5) 95% of the work I do as a corporate tax lawyer does not involve any mathematical heavy lifting. As innumerate as many law students are, I think most can handle the arithmetic and basic algebra involved in tax if they are willing to.
6) My experience is that the Asperger's cases don't actually do all that well. If you can't communicate to your client, you are not going far.[/quote]

I can agree and disagree. But I respect your points.
Obviously depends what JD institution was for the B+. Big difference between say Cooley and NYU for example. Also depends on how strong the rest of your application was. Tax programs have serious competition for slots. That's was my point, and several schools do look for an "A" or better.

Tax is a big world. Corporate is less calculations. But you still do them. Control Group testing for example. In my areas of employee benefits we do a lot. Especially with pensions. The point was people who tend to do well in tax, tend to *think* differently than those that do well in more abstract subjects. Different skill sets. It wasn't they could do the math, its that it is a clue as to if you might like tax. As I said, if you loved con law or crim law, you might not like the details and minutia of tax. I was using math which is detail oriented like tax as a proxy, in a "fun" way.

Dude... the Asperger's guys all run the PBGC! Just do that rolling five year multi employer withdrawal employee liability... zzzzz. Yes I agree they stink at dealing with clients. But all the tax firms have the geeks locked in a basement somewhere to do the nasty pension stuff as an example. Or how about replacing a partner and adjusting basis!

But I think we can agree Tax lawyers are different in some ways. Whether I do the best job articulating why... there is a difference, in the law we practice. Their law you are innocent until proven guilty. In our law you must prove the service is wrong. Its a different way of thinking was my point.

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3|ink
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby 3|ink » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:30 pm

I can't decide what I hate more about cigarman. The fact that he's a pretentious douche, or the fact that he can't figure out quotes.

CPAJDLLM
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby CPAJDLLM » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:36 pm

3|ink wrote:I can't decide what I hate more about cigarman. The fact that he's a pretentious douche, or the fact that he can't figure out quotes.


Quotes

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cigarman
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Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 2:43 pm

Re: Tax LLM

Postby cigarman » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:59 am

3|ink wrote:I can't decide what I hate more about cigarman. The fact that he's a pretentious douche, or the fact that he can't figure out quotes.


I guess trying to help someone is pretentious to you. Oh well, I'm sure as an English, Philosophy major, that things over at Burger Shack don't keep you busy enough from making 14,000+ posts chiming in to add nothing to the topics, except insult others. Good luck, I hear the fry station may be coming open soon.

Anonymous User
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:53 pm

I need some thoughts/advice on possibly going for a dual JD/LLM in tax at GULC.

Some facts: I transferred to GULC from a T2. Good 1L grades obviously, pretty good 2L grades so far. Didn't get Big Law for 2L summer--I'll be doing a paid federal internship this summer, but I still want Big Law. I enjoy tax law classes so far (Tax I and II).

I know 3L OCI is rough/non-existent, especially if you aren't coming from a Big Law SA experience, and I know TCR is that it isn't wise to double down and go for an LLM, but what about the dual degree? Dual degree students are allowed to do the full OCI before 3L year as if they were a rising 2L again, so it would almost be like a do-over. Is that worth it? Or should I just bust my ass and try to get a job in the 3L search?

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Tax LLM

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:00 pm

cigarman wrote:Tax Lawyer, Certificate in Taxation with JD, GULC Tax LLM +employee benefit law currently... here. I don't see anyone asking the posters the very basic questions:
1) Have you taken Federal Income tax? JDs ask me all the time if they should get a tax LLM, but never took federal tax. You can't be admitted without it to the Tax LLM programs! Game over.
2) Did you get an A (or better) in Federal tax... if not GAME OVER.
3) Did you ever take a real "code" course? (evidence doesn't count). Do you know code is very detail oriented and can be tedious (read boring?) Did you "love con law!" or "love crim law"... you are going to HATE tax. This isn't a color outside the lines and argue field. Its what you do inside the lines and push the lines that counts.
4) Do you know what a "romanette" is?
5) We can do math. 92% of you can't.
6) If you have Asperger's or tourettes... WINNER!
6(A)ii(a)3(I)(p) Did that excite you?

Questions?


Funny, I loved con law and I love tax. In fact my only two A+ grades in LS were Fed Tax and Con Law. I was a creative writing major btw and am going into tax dept at a V10.

Sorry to feed the troll, everyone

Anonymous User
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:27 pm

For those of you who did NYU or GULC were any of your LLM classmates already in a tax group at a firm and asked to (and paid to?) get it for the firm?

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I need some thoughts/advice on possibly going for a dual JD/LLM in tax at GULC.

Some facts: I transferred to GULC from a T2. Good 1L grades obviously, pretty good 2L grades so far. Didn't get Big Law for 2L summer--I'll be doing a paid federal internship this summer, but I still want Big Law. I enjoy tax law classes so far (Tax I and II).

I know 3L OCI is rough/non-existent, especially if you aren't coming from a Big Law SA experience, and I know TCR is that it isn't wise to double down and go for an LLM, but what about the dual degree? Dual degree students are allowed to do the full OCI before 3L year as if they were a rising 2L again, so it would almost be like a do-over. Is that worth it? Or should I just bust my ass and try to get a job in the 3L search?


If you want biglaw, I'd plan to do the Tax LLM if nothing comes up, but I'd keep hustling for biglaw with a JD - mass mailing, networking, see if anything comes up 3L, etc. People with strong JDs at NYU were very successful in landing biglaw. I'm getting my tax LLM, feel free to PM if you have any questions.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For those of you who did NYU or GULC were any of your LLM classmates already in a tax group at a firm and asked to (and paid to?) get it for the firm?


There are a few doing it part time while working big law. I assume the firm is paying. I've seen maybe 5 around out of a class of 110 at NYU. *I'm not certain about this and am just going out on a limb* I know of no full time students doing this.




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