Tax LLM

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Anonymous User
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Tax LLM

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:49 pm

How is the tax market? If I go for a tax llm at Gtown, do I have a better chance at market salary employment? I thought tax attorneys are in their own niche market, so they wouldn't have trouble with employment.

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thesealocust
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby thesealocust » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How is the tax market? If I go for a tax llm at Gtown, do I have a better chance at market salary employment? I thought tax attorneys are in their own niche market, so they wouldn't have trouble with employment.


The latter part of your statement may be correct, but if you're unemployed and hoping to get a tax LLM to fix it you are not yet a "tax attorney" and thus can't really leverage the benefits. Tax LLMs from Georgetown or NYU are probably valuable but not surefire tickets to a reversal of fortune, especially ITE.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:55 pm

Check out NYU's tax LLM page. They are (surprisingly) pretty honest about how employment at a big firm works for their tax LLM students. Basically, if you get high grades in your LLM you have a shot at a big tax firm job. I believe they also say that your JD grades still matter. Basically it's not that great of a route unless someone has already hired you and is paying for it.

Anonymous User
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:57 pm

Good advice, but seeing as how I'm top third of my class at American, one more year of hard work seems worth it.

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splittermcsplit88
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby splittermcsplit88 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:57 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Check out NYU's tax LLM page. They are (surprisingly) pretty honest about how employment at a big firm works for their tax LLM students. Basically, if you get high grades in your LLM you have a shot at a big tax firm job. I believe they also say that your JD grades still matter. Basically it's not that great of a route unless someone has already hired you and is paying for it.


Uh oh. :shock:

I haven't taken tax courses yet, so I have no idea what it is. Do people actually enjoy this? Sounds boring as fuck. But, tax attorney salary for Morgan Stanley and the like is $300k. 8)

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thesealocust
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby thesealocust » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Check out NYU's tax LLM page. They are (surprisingly) pretty honest about how employment at a big firm works for their tax LLM students. Basically, if you get high grades in your LLM you have a shot at a big tax firm job. I believe they also say that your JD grades still matter. Basically it's not that great of a route unless someone has already hired you and is paying for it.


Uh oh. :shock:

I haven't taken tax courses yet, so I have no idea what it is. Do people actually enjoy this? Sounds boring as fuck. But, tax attorney salary for Morgan Stanley and the like is $300k. 8)


I have no words.

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splittermcsplit88
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby splittermcsplit88 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:15 pm

Why? I'm just asking, salary is a big factor, tax sounds boring. Got a problem?

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Mick Haller
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Mick Haller » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:25 pm

Read the forums on tax talent. Many there claim the market for tax LLMs is harder than for straight JDs.

LOL at 300k salaries; big four accounting firms pay LLMs about the same as their CPAs.

Pokemon
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Pokemon » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:21 pm

Mick Haller wrote:Read the forums on tax talent. Many there claim the market for tax LLMs is harder than for straight JDs.

LOL at 300k salaries; big four accounting firms pay LLMs about the same as their CPAs.


Wait, you are serious? It takes more than a tax LLM at NYU to make 300k at Morgan Stanley???

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Hattori Hanzo
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Hattori Hanzo » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:59 pm

Pokemon wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:Read the forums on tax talent. Many there claim the market for tax LLMs is harder than for straight JDs.

LOL at 300k salaries; big four accounting firms pay LLMs about the same as their CPAs.


Wait, you are serious? It takes more than a tax LLM at NYU to make 300k at Morgan Stanley???


From what I've heard it's actually $500K at Morgan Stanley.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby somewhatwayward » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Good advice, but seeing as how I'm top third of my class at American, one more year of hard work seems worth it.


Troll?

If not, drop out now. American is terrible, worse than pretty much all the T4's in terms of employment. A tax LLM will not save you if you even manage to get into NYU's program anyway.

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Mick Haller
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Mick Haller » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:12 pm

My uncle went strait K-LLM at golden gate and is making 750k at Morgen Stankey. True story.

Pokemon
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Pokemon » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:15 pm

Mick Haller wrote:My uncle went strait K-LLM at golden gate and is making 750k at Morgen Stankey. True story.


We need more stories like this. Too many people on this forum make absurd claims such as a JD is not a sure way to a six figure salary.

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El_Sol
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby El_Sol » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:25 pm

Are you an accounting major? Employers looking for tax associates prefer business-related majors, especially accounting. They want to know you have a real interest in tax.

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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:35 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Good advice, but seeing as how I'm top third of my class at American, one more year of hard work seems worth it.


Troll?

If not, drop out now. American is terrible, worse than pretty much all the T4's in terms of employment. A tax LLM will not save you if you even manage to get into NYU's program anyway.


Wow, asswipe. I happen to have a 2L summer with a firm that has almost 100% offer rate. Don't give unsolicited advice.

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nealric
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby nealric » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How is the tax market? If I go for a tax llm at Gtown, do I have a better chance at market salary employment? I thought tax attorneys are in their own niche market, so they wouldn't have trouble with employment.


I have a GULC LLM. In general, it is not great for securing big law. I got my job from regular 2L OCI. Most LLMs in my program did big 4, tax consulting firms, or already had big law offers prior to the LLM.

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Mick Haller
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Mick Haller » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:52 pm

nealric wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How is the tax market? If I go for a tax llm at Gtown, do I have a better chance at market salary employment? I thought tax attorneys are in their own niche market, so they wouldn't have trouble with employment.


I have a GULC LLM. In general, it is not great for securing big law. I got my job from regular 2L OCI. Most LLMs in my program did big 4, tax consulting firms, or already had big law offers prior to the LLM.


Many estate planning people? I am thinking of doing NYU's online LLM for small firm estate planning. But only if I find an estate planning job paying $80k+; otherwise the NYU tuition makes no sense.

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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:07 pm

Mick Haller wrote:Read the forums on tax talent. Many there claim the market for tax LLMs is harder than for straight JDs.

LOL at 300k salaries; big four accounting firms pay LLMs about the same as their CPAs.


This is not true. LLMs generally start at double the salary of CPAs. Not even close. It would take a CPA 6 or 7 years, if not longer, to reach the pay of a first year LLM.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby somewhatwayward » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Good advice, but seeing as how I'm top third of my class at American, one more year of hard work seems worth it.


Troll?

If not, drop out now. American is terrible, worse than pretty much all the T4's in terms of employment. A tax LLM will not save you if you even manage to get into NYU's program anyway.


Wow, asswipe. I happen to have a 2L summer with a firm that has almost 100% offer rate. Don't give unsolicited advice.


Then why are you posting about getting an LLM in tax? If you have a firm job and really want tax, then just work in their tax department. Also, it is nice that you have a summer job, but American only places 1/3 of its grads into jobs of any type, so whatever affinity you have for the school, you have to admit that that is pretty terrible, especially for a "T1" school.

Anonymous User
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:30 pm

I said market salary. AU's prospects are bad, but you can't just go "drop out" without knowing my situation.

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nealric
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby nealric » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:26 pm

El_Sol wrote:Are you an accounting major? Employers looking for tax associates prefer business-related majors, especially accounting. They want to know you have a real interest in tax.


I think big 4 much more than firms. I was a philosophy major, and so was one of the main partners I work for.

This is not true. LLMs generally start at double the salary of CPAs. Not even close. It would take a CPA 6 or 7 years, if not longer, to reach the pay of a first year LLM.


I think you are thinking of the big 4 national tax offices (I think most, if not all are in DC or NYC), where salaries are low 100s to start. However, most LLMs don't get these jobs. Many are getting basically the exact same job as the CPAs.

Many estate planning people? I am thinking of doing NYU's online LLM for small firm estate planning. But only if I find an estate planning job paying $80k+; otherwise the NYU tuition makes no sense.


Not an estate planner so take this with a grain of salt, but my impression is that estate planning tends to be a bit less tax heavy except at the very high end with the lifetime exemption now fixed at $5 million. Average Joes aren't subject to the estate tax any more. I only knew of one or two people intending to do estate planning, but then again, I wasn't taking estate planning classes. ERISA is probably a better bet if you are looking for a more laid-back niche.
Last edited by nealric on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mick Haller
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Mick Haller » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:01 am

Bay Area has a lot of high net worth persons. So estate planning firms around here expect a tax LLM.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby somewhatwayward » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I said market salary. AU's prospects are bad, but you can't just go "drop out" without knowing my situation.


How much is the gap between your firm's salary and market salary? It would only make sense to take on another 50-70K + interest in debt if it was a pretty big gap (and Tax LLM would help you get a market-paying firm, which I am not convinced of). Most people who go to work at firms that pay market only make it a few years there, so if your firm's salary is 145K and market is 160K, you won't even get close to making up the difference. Also, you don't really sound like you are at all interested in tax (somewhere you said something like 'LOL tax sounds boring [smiley face]'). That could affect how well you do in the LLM classes. I think you should just stick with the firm you have....too many risks involved with the LLM and not enough upside given that you already have a firm job.

Also, 99% of people who come on here askig about Tax LLMs are unemployed and thinking about doubling-down with a Tax LLM when the right choice, especially when your school places so few people, is to drop out, so I am sorry the surefire assumption didn't apply to you, but I will probably continue to make it.

Anonymous User
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:47 pm

nealric wrote:
This is not true. LLMs generally start at double the salary of CPAs. Not even close. It would take a CPA 6 or 7 years, if not longer, to reach the pay of a first year LLM.


I think you are thinking of the big 4 national tax offices (I think most, if not all are in DC or NYC), where salaries are low 100s to start. However, most LLMs don't get these jobs. Many are getting basically the exact same job as the CPAs.


I am quoted anon poster, and I believe that if an LLM is hired into a specialty group (international, SALT, M&A) in any major/secondary market, it should be expected that the LLM will regularly be doing tax research & planning and will start with a six figure salary. I believe most CPAs (without further credentials) start at around 50-60k, and mainly prepare tax returns. I do not doubt that there are many instances of LLMs going to non-specialty and/or to small offices and doing the job of an accountant (at an accountant's salary), but I am certain that there are plenty of better opportunities for LLMs (and not only in the national office).

For what its worth, I do not have a CPA or an LLM and I have been hired into a big 4 specialty group in a secondary market. The vast majority of the individuals in my group are lawyers, and the non-lawyers are very senior. My starting salary is also far greater than that of a CPA.

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Hattori Hanzo
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Re: Tax LLM

Postby Hattori Hanzo » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For what its worth, I do not have a CPA or an LLM and I have been hired into a big 4 specialty group in a secondary market. The vast majority of the individuals in my group are lawyers, and the non-lawyers are very senior. My starting salary is also far greater than that of a CPA.


How much greater? I know a 2012 grad who went to E&Y tax at $80-90K base in DC. Non-LLM and no accounting background. Just want to get a general idea of the range.




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