2L with SA but also big grade improvement, try for new job? Forum

[soccerfreak]

I PROPOSE A COMPROMISE

Can we all just agree that 160k in NYC, and 100-120k in secondary markets are roughly equal functionally, in the sense that choices between the two should likely be made on other factors?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I know nothing about the methodology, but FWIW, CNNMoney's cost of living calculator reports that a 160K salary in Manhattan is equivalent to $81K in Minneapolis, $72K in Atlanta, $84K in Chicago, $73K in Kansas City, $68K in Cincinnati, and $70K in Dallas. (If you plug in Brooklyn, the numbers shift to $97K, $85K, $100K, $87K, $82K, and $84K; plug in Queens, and you get $114K, $101K, $119K, $103, $97K, and $100K.)

That's because cost of living calculators are based on the average cost of all things, not what you pay for the things you want or need. You, as an individual, get a pay check in either place, then make choices about how to spend it. They give you a sense for a lot of things, most importantly average rents, but they absolutely do not do what they claim in terms of giving you "equivalent" salaries. They also don't handicap for benefits and bonuses, obviously.

There are people who live and work in New York City with yearly wages under $40,000 per year. I assume a cost of living calculator would tell you those people could just give up their life of material possessions and live in a barter economy anywhere else in the country?

Edit: Looking at the calculator it's very clear what the problem is. The "cost of living" is way less than your salary, even if it's higher in NYC than Peoria. But the calculators just apply the same rates to your entire salary, so it becomes wildly inaccurate for anybody earning a comfortable living. It also doesn't account for things like the fact that ain't nobody in NYC own or have expenses related to a car. Transportation costs cheaper in Chapel Hill than NYC? lololololol.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out why people believe what they believe about cost of living and NY and so on. Not saying you can't live more cheaply in NY than in the other places.

[arizonairish]

Why is everyone's car insurance so expensive? You need to shop around more.

[thesealocust]

I PROPOSE A COMPROMISE

Can we all just agree that 160k in NYC, and 100-120k in secondary markets are roughly equal functionally, in the sense that choices between the two should likely be made on other factors?

No, because they are not roughly equal functionally? On balance I still argue that the $160K in NYC, particularly if you're looking at salary + bonus - rent - transportation - taxes, is noticeably more.

But to sum it up concisely, the biggest difference is liquidity. 160K in NYC is more money, and choices about how much or little of it to spend can then be made. Frugal people live in NYC and financially reckless people live in secondary markets.

Now, if you're talking about 160K in Houston (no state income tax) or even DC/San Francisco, clearly the expense of NYC is a big fucking deal and the bonus/benefit/salary progression probably doesn't get you back to par.

[Kronk]

160,000 is 78,000 in Denver according to all the COL calculators I've seen. I'm not sure where the OP is, but I know the market for a regional firm in Denver is 110k so I'll go with that and say 110k will go a lot further in Denver than it would in NYC.

[romothesavior]

You should feel lucky that you got a market-paying SA with median grades from a T1.

Yeah, seriously. A solid regional mid/biglaw job is pretty good for for top 20% at a T40. You're unlikely to to ride your school/grades to K&E or CSM or something. Go for it at 3L OCI if that's what you want to do, but don't expect too much.

[Kronk]

[soccerfreak]

Frugal people live in NYC and financially reckless people live in secondary markets.

What?

I'm assuming (because of speaking about liquidity) you mean NYC may well be the better option financially for a frugal person (better ability to maximize take home), and secondary markets may well be the better option for a reckless person (where their crazy spending ways won't cost them as much).

If I'm correct in this interpretation, I think I would agree with your assertion. And I don't see how it would undermine my assertion; actually it would reinforce it (essentially, depending on who you are, either NYC or secondary markets could be the better decision financially; it's a factual determination).

[romothesavior]

160,000 is 78,000 in Denver according to all the COL calculators I've seen. I'm not sure where the OP is, but I know the market for a regional firm in Denver is 110k so I'll go with that and say 110k will go a lot further in Denver than it would in NYC.

Same with around here. The calculator tells me that my market's rate is equivalent to well over 200k+ in NYC. And the people there work hundreds fewer hours for it.

I don't know that I've ever disagreed with you TSL, but I don't think you really get how little money it takes to live like a king in some secondaries. Yeah, liquidity, whatever. Yeah, you can do NYC and be frugal. But at what cost? When you talk about "how far your money takes you," you're talking about purchasing power, and there's no way NYC at 160k has as much purchasing power as 100-120 in some flyover city. A year from now I'm looking at $900/month for a 900 sq. ft. downtown apartment, $50 for a damn good steak dinner, and $5 a pop on drinks tops. Maybe the "NYC is super expensive" schtick is a bit overdone, but you're not finding that kind of thing there.

[plenipotentiary]

160,000 is 78,000 in Denver according to all the COL calculators I've seen. I'm not sure where the OP is, but I know the market for a regional firm in Denver is 110k so I'll go with that and say 110k will go a lot further in Denver than it would in NYC.

Same with around here. The calculator tells me that my market's rate is equivalent to well over 200k+ in NYC. And the people there work hundreds fewer hours for it.

I don't know that I've ever disagreed with you TSL, but I don't think you really get how little money it takes to live like a king in some secondaries. Yeah, liquidity, whatever. Yeah, you can do NYC and be frugal. But at what cost? When you talk about "how far your money takes you," you're talking about purchasing power, and there's no way NYC at 160k has as much purchasing power as 100-120 in some flyover city. A year from now I'm looking at $900/month for a 900 sq. ft. downtown apartment, $50 for a damn good steak dinner, and $5 a pop on drinks tops. Maybe the "NYC is super expensive" schtick is a bit overdone, but you're not finding that kind of thing there.

When you say you can "live like a king" on $100k in some flyover city, you're failing to take into account how many things are priced more or less nationally. Sure, you can rent a fancy apartment in a flyover city for $900/month, but if you want to buy a big screen TV or a fancy computer, those things aren't going to be significantly cheaper in a flyover city than they would be in NYC. Vacations to Europe aren't any cheaper if you happen to live in a flyover city (actually, flying out of that dinky airport is probably more expensive than flying out of Newark). A suit from J.Crew costs the same thing in a flyover city as in does in NYC.

And maybe you can get a "damn good steak dinner" for $50 in a flyover, but a sushi dinner in that city will cost you just as much and taste terrible (in NYC, it would be $25 and fantastic).

[Kronk]

Buying power (from the NALP graph I posted above) takes all those things into account. While you're correct that song things are priced nationally, most things that you buy aren't. The largest part of a budget is food and rent, and all those things will be significantly more expensive the more expensive a city is. The fact of the matter is that even if you live frugally in NYC or SF, you can also live frugally in Dallas or Denver. No matter how much you spend, you're going to get more bang for you buck.

Pretend you spend $800 on rent on NYC because you're trying to live frugally (my friend does this, lives in Brooklyn, and his room is about the size of his wingspan but the place is overall nice, albeit with 2 craigslist roommates). That's awesome, but for that $800 in Denver or Dallas you can have a loft apartment in a nice complex with a balcony overlooking the skyline and a spacious room. Alternatively, you could decide to live "frugally" in Denver, live just outside the metro area in a town like Littleton or Thornton, and pay $400, still having more room than you would living frugally in Brooklyn for half the price. It's just not a comparison.

You'd have to make 200K in NYC to have the same buying power as you would at 110k in a lot of smaller secondary markets. Some of those secondary markets are very desirable places to live (e.g. Denver). Although who knows, if NYC goes to 190k sometime, all this will be moot.

[Ruxin1]

160,000 is 78,000 in Denver according to all the COL calculators I've seen. I'm not sure where the OP is, but I know the market for a regional firm in Denver is 110k so I'll go with that and say 110k will go a lot further in Denver than it would in NYC.

Same with around here. The calculator tells me that my market's rate is equivalent to well over 200k+ in NYC. And the people there work hundreds fewer hours for it.

I don't know that I've ever disagreed with you TSL, but I don't think you really get how little money it takes to live like a king in some secondaries. Yeah, liquidity, whatever. Yeah, you can do NYC and be frugal. But at what cost? When you talk about "how far your money takes you," you're talking about purchasing power, and there's no way NYC at 160k has as much purchasing power as 100-120 in some flyover city. A year from now I'm looking at $900/month for a 900 sq. ft. downtown apartment, $50 for a damn good steak dinner, and $5 a pop on drinks tops. Maybe the "NYC is super expensive" schtick is a bit overdone, but you're not finding that kind of thing there.

TSL also talked about if you work in NYC you have to pretty much OK with not really saving any money.

[thesealocust]

Mindlessly quoting buying power is just repeating what everyone already knows: the rent is too damn high.

The percentage of your income which is tied to your cities cost of living is not 100%. Not all 96 thousand of those after-tax dollars are getting mutilated by NYC cost of living. Student loans aren't, travel isn't, most consumer products aren't, savings aren't, gifts aren't, cell service isn't, etc.

While rent is, tied to where you live, the difference there is staggering compared to the difference in, say, a burrito. I think NYC rent is like 4-5x that of Charlottesville rent and the burritos are maybe 5-10% more expensive. The dollar pizza is even cheaper.

It's different for each person. A family of four with a single biglaw income, for example, is going to see way more of the "effects" of NYC cost of living vs. a young single guy. But generally speaking, the average post-law school student isn't going to be as fully exposed to the city's "cost of living" as the calculators would assume. Their calculations are not realistic for real-world comparisons, just as general guides to how generally expensive locations are. So it can tell you Houston is cheaper than DC and DC is cheaper than NYC, but it can't tell you that exactly XYZ dollars in Houston is identical to ABC dollars in NYC.

Frugal people live in NYC and financially reckless people live in secondary markets.

What?

{misinterpretation}

It's a turn of phrase, not an argument or a statement.

[Kronk]

Locust, ever lived outside of a big city brother? You wouldn't make that argument if you had. It's just silly.

[thesealocust]

I just moved from a small town to a big city. My rent is like 5x higher now than it was

[Anonymous User]

Not to derail the thread about COL, but I had a long conversation about 3L OCI with Career Services last week, since I'm in a similar enough situation. This is what came of the conversation, although I am at a T6 so do with that what you will.
1. 3L hiring was up significantly in 2012 over 2011 > 2010 > 2009. But in the best of times, it's not great.
2. Don't be openly looking to leave your firm before you've ever worked there. If the one thing that a firm knows about you is that you look to leave before you get there that's a bad thing.
3. Network by trying to be a presence in the lives of people who will be in your 3L search target range. Don't openly try to score interviews until at least halfway through the summer, because of point 2. but have some people you can call as the summer begins winding down.
4. Do everything you can to get an offer. Buy in completely to the firm's summer program. Do not be the guy who thinks he's too good for the firm and is leaving the minute the summer ends.
5. Have a story about your change of heart, like, "I had wanted to work in my hometown, but as I studied transactions with a professor who had NY big firm experience, I decided that I really wanted to do the real high end work". Or something like that, depending on the specifics of your situation.

[NinerFan]

160,000 is 78,000 in Denver according to all the COL calculators I've seen. I'm not sure where the OP is, but I know the market for a regional firm in Denver is 110k so I'll go with that and say 110k will go a lot further in Denver than it would in NYC.

Same with around here. The calculator tells me that my market's rate is equivalent to well over 200k+ in NYC. And the people there work hundreds fewer hours for it.

I don't know that I've ever disagreed with you TSL, but I don't think you really get how little money it takes to live like a king in some secondaries. Yeah, liquidity, whatever. Yeah, you can do NYC and be frugal. But at what cost? When you talk about "how far your money takes you," you're talking about purchasing power, and there's no way NYC at 160k has as much purchasing power as 100-120 in some flyover city. A year from now I'm looking at $900/month for a 900 sq. ft. downtown apartment, $50 for a damn good steak dinner, and $5 a pop on drinks tops. Maybe the "NYC is super expensive" schtick is a bit overdone, but you're not finding that kind of thing there.

When you say you can "live like a king" on $100k in some flyover city, you're failing to take into account how many things are priced more or less nationally. Sure, you can rent a fancy apartment in a flyover city for $900/month, but if you want to buy a big screen TV or a fancy computer, those things aren't going to be significantly cheaper in a flyover city than they would be in NYC. Vacations to Europe aren't any cheaper if you happen to live in a flyover city (actually, flying out of that dinky airport is probably more expensive than flying out of Newark). A suit from J.Crew costs the same thing in a flyover city as in does in NYC.

And maybe you can get a "damn good steak dinner" for $50 in a flyover, but a sushi dinner in that city will cost you just as much and taste terrible (in NYC, it would be $25 and fantastic).

Ah, food in New York arguments. There's plenty of good food in flyover areas and it's a lot cheaper.

[nouseforaname123]

160,000 is 78,000 in Denver according to all the COL calculators I've seen. I'm not sure where the OP is, but I know the market for a regional firm in Denver is 110k so I'll go with that and say 110k will go a lot further in Denver than it would in NYC.

Same with around here. The calculator tells me that my market's rate is equivalent to well over 200k+ in NYC. And the people there work hundreds fewer hours for it.

I don't know that I've ever disagreed with you TSL, but I don't think you really get how little money it takes to live like a king in some secondaries. Yeah, liquidity, whatever. Yeah, you can do NYC and be frugal. But at what cost? When you talk about "how far your money takes you," you're talking about purchasing power, and there's no way NYC at 160k has as much purchasing power as 100-120 in some flyover city. A year from now I'm looking at $900/month for a 900 sq. ft. downtown apartment, $50 for a damn good steak dinner, and $5 a pop on drinks tops. Maybe the "NYC is super expensive" schtick is a bit overdone, but you're not finding that kind of thing there.

When you say you can "live like a king" on $100k in some flyover city, you're failing to take into account how many things are priced more or less nationally. Sure, you can rent a fancy apartment in a flyover city for $900/month, but if you want to buy a big screen TV or a fancy computer, those things aren't going to be significantly cheaper in a flyover city than they would be in NYC. Vacations to Europe aren't any cheaper if you happen to live in a flyover city (actually, flying out of that dinky airport is probably more expensive than flying out of Newark). A suit from J.Crew costs the same thing in a flyover city as in does in NYC.

And maybe you can get a "damn good steak dinner" for $50 in a flyover, but a sushi dinner in that city will cost you just as much and taste terrible (in NYC, it would be $25 and fantastic).

Ah, food in New York arguments. There's plenty of good food in flyover areas and it's a lot cheaper.

Yes, but what about the sushi?

[romothesavior]

NOOOOO NOT THE SUSHIIIIII

Here comes the trump card express

[Tiago Splitter]

Buying power (from the NALP graph I posted above) takes all those things into account. While you're correct that song things are priced nationally, most things that you buy aren't. The largest part of a budget is food and rent, and all those things will be significantly more expensive the more expensive a city is. The fact of the matter is that even if you live frugally in NYC or SF, you can also live frugally in Dallas or Denver. No matter how much you spend, you're going to get more bang for you buck.

Pretend you spend $800 on rent on NYC because you're trying to live frugally (my friend does this, lives in Brooklyn, and his room is about the size of his wingspan but the place is overall nice, albeit with 2 craigslist roommates). That's awesome, but for that $800 in Denver or Dallas you can have a loft apartment in a nice complex with a balcony overlooking the skyline and a spacious room. Alternatively, you could decide to live "frugally" in Denver, live just outside the metro area in a town like Littleton or Thornton, and pay $400, still having more room than you would living frugally in Brooklyn for half the price. It's just not a comparison.

You'd have to make 200K in NYC to have the same buying power as you would at 110k in a lot of smaller secondary markets. Some of those secondary markets are very desirable places to live (e.g. Denver). Although who knows, if NYC goes to 190k sometime, all this will be moot.

So living frugally in Denver saves you $400/month on rent over living frugally in NYC, and much of that gain will be taken up by higher transportation costs in Denver. But you're saying you need to make 90K more in pre-tax dollars in NYC. Where does the rest of the savings come from?

[Anonymous User]

Not to derail the thread about COL, but I had a long conversation about 3L OCI with Career Services last week, since I'm in a similar enough situation. This is what came of the conversation, although I am at a T6 so do with that what you will.
1. 3L hiring was up significantly in 2012 over 2011 > 2010 > 2009. But in the best of times, it's not great.
2. Don't be openly looking to leave your firm before you've ever worked there. If the one thing that a firm knows about you is that you look to leave before you get there that's a bad thing.
3. Network by trying to be a presence in the lives of people who will be in your 3L search target range. Don't openly try to score interviews until at least halfway through the summer, because of point 2. but have some people you can call as the summer begins winding down.
4. Do everything you can to get an offer. Buy in completely to the firm's summer program. Do not be the guy who thinks he's too good for the firm and is leaving the minute the summer ends.
5. Have a story about your change of heart, like, "I had wanted to work in my hometown, but as I studied transactions with a professor who had NY big firm experience, I decided that I really wanted to do the real high end work". Or something like that, depending on the specifics of your situation.

OP here, THANK YOU! This is exactly what I was looking for. (and didn't really trust my CSO to tell me, since they stop trying once you're employed in any capacity)

...I'm not sure how this thread turned into a debate about the purchasing power parity between markets.

[ndirish2010]

The Midwest is the Best. See, e.g., Thread by the Same Name in the Lounge.

[Kronk]

So living frugally in Denver saves you $400/month on rent over living frugally in NYC, and much of that gain will be taken up by higher transportation costs in Denver. But you're saying you need to make 90K more in pre-tax dollars in NYC. Where does the rest of the savings come from?

Well it was 80k difference. I wasn't necessarily saying 190K in NYC was the threshold for making 110K in Denver, either. I was saying this entire convo would be moot if they moved it to 190K because at that point obviously the 190K could be made to go further than the 110K (although if big firms went to 190K, the regional firms would go up beyond 110K to compete. For example, the firm I was going to work at here started at 160K because it was an office of a D.C.-based firm, and because there are firms in Denver paying that much, many of the regional firms here have gone to 120K. If that goes up further, so would the regional firms).

I don't think transportation costs as much as you think it does here. If I moved back and had a job downtown and lived outside the city like I had just put out there, I could ride the bus all month for less than $100. I was also being pretty generous with NYC. I mean if I wanted actually similar living accommodations that my friend has in Brooklyn (2 unknown roommates, a bedroom with the width of slightly more than my wingspan) I could nab it for $300 somewhere. The advantage of a place like Denver is you coud rent a small 1BR or studio alone for about $500-600 outside the city center. I imagine most people want to live in their own place when they're a lawyer. If you're going to do that in Brooklyn or NYC you're going north of $1000, probably more like $1300 even in Brooklyn. But here is a nifty little graph:

[nouseforaname123]

I don't think transportation costs as much as you think it does here. If I moved back and had a job downtown and lived outside the city like I had just put out there, I could ride the bus all month for less than $100.

+1. As a SA in Dallas I was able to use the local rail system about 90% of time even though I lived about 20 miles from my offices. Plan on continuing the practice once I'm full time. My drive to the station was less than a mile. NYC has a superior public transportation system, but I would think that most cities with Biglaw have workable public transportation.

[Tiago Splitter]

I don't think transportation costs as much as you think it does here. If I moved back and had a job downtown and lived outside the city like I had just put out there, I could ride the bus all month for less than $100.

+1. As a SA in Dallas I was able to use the local rail system about 90% of time even though I lived about 20 miles from my offices. Plan on continuing the practice once I'm full time. My drive to the station was less than a mile. NYC has a superior public transportation system, but I would think that most cities with Biglaw have workable public transportation.

Phoenix didn't. And if living by yourself in NYC is important as a BigLaw associate, having a car is just as important everywhere else. Gas/Insurance/Maintenance used to cost as much as my rent, and that ignores the cost of monthly payments on the vehicle.

By the way, Trader Joe's brags about having the same prices nationwide. Since I shop there, I spend the same amount on groceries now as I did in Phoenix. My rent went from $400 to $800, which was shared in both places. Since I am prone to impulse purchases, have little self-discipline when it comes to eating out, and struggle to live in a space which can't fit a pool table, I do spend a lot more here than I used to, but it doesn't have to be that way.