Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 273269
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:18 pm

1L here.

Applying for judicial internships & firms for the summer. I will assuredly hear back from judge BEFORE I hear from my first-choice firm--but the firm requested I notify them of other job offers so they have the opportunity to make a competing offer early.

My OCS says that we're at no position in our careers to turn down offers from judges(we'd create bad blood); but I've been told by a few people that OCS is just looking out for the future (they don't want judges to dislike the school/not hire someone next year)--and that I should be caring about myself when it comes to employment.

Internship pays nothing and firm job would pay 20-30k. I could survive(food,housing,etc) bartending over the summer but I'll be pulling out 20-30k extra in loans for 2L.

What's TCR here? Can I deny a judge without pissing him off?

Fed judge, very well known. If I can't get a firm job I would want this 100%--so not interviewing with the judge isn't an option.

User avatar
Drake014
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:22 pm

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby Drake014 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:22 pm

You sound like you understand things pretty clearly. If you're comfortable having that really awkward conversation with the judge where you do what almost no one does and have your school be pissy with you, go for it.

User avatar
kalvano
Posts: 11724
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby kalvano » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:22 pm

Politely tell Career Services to fuck off, that it's your job and your life, not theirs.

Of course you can say no without pissing off a judge. It's all in how you do it. Be a normal, professional human being and you'll be fine.

User avatar
cinephile
Posts: 3469
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:50 pm

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby cinephile » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:37 pm

You have to put your own interests first.

Dubyuhnell
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:45 pm

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby Dubyuhnell » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:44 pm

I agree ite you have to look out for number one ...unless career services threatens to kick you out of school do what u think is best

User avatar
cinephile
Posts: 3469
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:50 pm

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby cinephile » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:49 pm

This is also why I never share with career services if I have an offer, because I know they'll really pressure me to take it even if it's not the right choice for me. So I always just tell them I'm unemployed. The way I see it, I don't owe them my honesty.

aces
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:06 pm

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby aces » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:57 pm

I think most judges will understand that for 1L summer positions, you want to be able to explore your options. If you do receive an offer, thank the judge and politely ask if you can have a few days to consider the offer. You can then immediately contact the firm and tell them that you have an expiring offer and would like to hear back from them before you have to make a decision on the judicial internship. For 1L summer internships, I don't think many judges would force you to decide on a take-it-or-leave-it exploding offer, and if you promise to get back to them very soon, I think most will at least give you a few days to think about it (full-time clerkships are a different story, though-- for those, it truly is take-it-or-leave-it). Honestly, if the judge (or his/her clerks/assistant) force you to decide on the offer on the spot or hold it against you if you want a day or two to consider it, he/she is probably not the best judge to work for anyways.

User avatar
NinerFan
Posts: 482
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby NinerFan » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:50 pm

I turned one down as a 1L. The sun still rose the next day and has continued to do so. Might be a bit context specific though, as I had no interest in the jurisdiction/state.

User avatar
prezidentv8
Posts: 2821
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:33 am

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby prezidentv8 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:04 pm

kalvano wrote:Politely tell Career Services to fuck off, that it's your job and your life, not theirs.

Of course you can say no without pissing off a judge. It's all in how you do it. Be a normal, professional human being and you'll be fine.


cinephile wrote:You have to put your own interests first.


aces wrote:I think most judges will understand . . . I don't think many judges would force you to decide on a take-it-or-leave-it exploding offer.


Pretty much my thoughts. Judges are people too.

User avatar
thesealocust
Posts: 8446
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby thesealocust » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:17 pm

If you turn a judge down the world won't end.

Couple things though:

(1) You aren't likely to have a judge let you sit on an open offer while you try to get a firm instead. There's a difference between turning down a judge and accepting then un-accepting an offer with a judge, but of course neither will throw off the rotation of the earth much as career services wants you to believe.

(2) Just because you can avoid the precedent / standard practice of accepting an offer if given doesn't mean it's not the precedent / standard practice. Proceed with caution.

(3) A great alternative is to accept an offer from a judge if you get one, then request to keep looking for a firm job / split with a firm if you get to the interview/offer stage with firms. Everybody wins! (I did this my 1L year; got the judicial offer in December and the firm offer in March...)

kryptix
Posts: 209
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:40 pm

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby kryptix » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:27 pm

Things happen that make you suddenly need money more, including student loans, find some way to break it to the judge without seeming like an ass, first test in your professional communication skills.

shock259
Posts: 1737
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:30 am

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby shock259 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:48 pm

thesealocust wrote:
(3) A great alternative is to accept an offer from a judge if you get one, then request to keep looking for a firm job / split with a firm if you get to the interview/offer stage with firms. Everybody wins! (I did this my 1L year; got the judicial offer in December and the firm offer in March...)


TITCR. I'd bring it up with the judge and be honest about your intentions. I also did this 1L and the judge was happy to let me do my thing for a while. It wasn't until March that he started getting antsy. I told him I was backing out because of another offer as soon as I heard (late March) and we both went on our merry ways.

Career services rarely does things right. Take anything you hear from them with deep skepticism. They're largely out of touch and looking out for different interests than you.

estopped
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:40 pm

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby estopped » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:54 am

shock259 wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
(3) A great alternative is to accept an offer from a judge if you get one, then request to keep looking for a firm job / split with a firm if you get to the interview/offer stage with firms. Everybody wins! (I did this my 1L year; got the judicial offer in December and the firm offer in March...)


TITCR. I'd bring it up with the judge and be honest about your intentions. I also did this 1L and the judge was happy to let me do my thing for a while. It wasn't until March that he started getting antsy. I told him I was backing out because of another offer as soon as I heard (late March) and we both went on our merry ways.

Career services rarely does things right. Take anything you hear from them with deep skepticism. They're largely out of touch and looking out for different interests than you.


This. You could prevent pissing off the judge all together. FYI, judges and PI orgs etc. have been known to call your school and let your school now that you bamboozled them, and you could get a slap on the wrist or a call from a relevant dean asking you to submit an apology on paper. This happens at some T14s.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273269
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:15 pm

OP here,

It seems like TCR is that it's "in bad taste" but doable.

The judge is in a "niche" area of law (think BK, Tax) that I'd eventually like to go in; so hoping I never have to work with him anymore isn't reasonable.

If I'm going to have to be in his court inevitably in the future, is it worth it to just accept the position rather than take the 20/30k from a firm? I've heard lawyers say that the right judicial internship is worth the money in the long-run (it seems like having a chance to be looked upon unfavorably would only push me toward the judge more).

But still, money is tight and having a 2L SA in the bag going into OCI would give me a lot of confidence.

Decisions...

User avatar
somewhatwayward
Posts: 1446
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:10 pm

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby somewhatwayward » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here,

It seems like TCR is that it's "in bad taste" but doable.

The judge is in a "niche" area of law (think BK, Tax) that I'd eventually like to go in; so hoping I never have to work with him anymore isn't reasonable.

If I'm going to have to be in his court inevitably in the future, is it worth it to just accept the position rather than take the 20/30k from a firm? I've heard lawyers say that the right judicial internship is worth the money in the long-run (it seems like having a chance to be looked upon unfavorably would only push me toward the judge more).

But still, money is tight and having a 2L SA in the bag going into OCI would give me a lot of confidence.

Decisions...


How realistic is it for you to get the SA position? In general, they only go to minority students or students with super-high grades unless you are talking about a secondary market. Even then, it is pretty rare. If it is a long shot, I might just go with the judge. If you think you really have a chance, it is a much harder decision.

ETA: is splitting possible?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273269
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Can I REALLY not turn down a judicial internship offer?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:45 pm

Decent odds at getting the firm job considering school/grades/secondary market/feeling from interviews.

Decent shot at internship considering alumni/relationship with judge/grades.

Obviously I can't count on getting the jobs; but I'm trying to get a cohesive plan for my upcoming interview IN CASE I get the offer on the spot for the internship.

Splitting isn't possible bc different cities (which is one reason I decided not to let the firms know that I may have to accept an offer on the spot).




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.