Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

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mephistopheles
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby mephistopheles » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:13 am

luv2luvmyalf wrote:Also, if you think it's okay for appearance to be given the central role it is, read Stanford Prof Deborah Rhode's brilliant law review article "The Injustice of Appearance." It demonstrates how much this ridiculous bias costs society.

http://www.stanfordlawreview.org/sites/ ... /Rhode.pdf



there's something to be said for aesthetics...

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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:07 am

Appearances play a role, but I think physical beauty only matters at the extremes. If you're super hot, you're probably going to outperform your credentials. If you're physically painful to look at, you're probably going to underperform. But in the typical situation (most people are not super hot or painfully ugly), I think grooming/confidence matters much more. All other things being equal, I don't think that a 6 is going to outperform a 4.

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suralin
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby suralin » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:20 am

luv2luvmyalf wrote:Also, if you think it's okay for appearance to be given the central role it is, read Stanford Prof Deborah Rhode's brilliant law review article "The Injustice of Appearance." It demonstrates how much this ridiculous bias costs society.

http://www.stanfordlawreview.org/sites/ ... /Rhode.pdf


Intriguing read.

Disclaimer: 0L, sorry.

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cinephile
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby cinephile » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:Appearances play a role, but I think physical beauty only matters at the extremes. If you're super hot, you're probably going to outperform your credentials. If you're physically painful to look at, you're probably going to underperform. But in the typical situation (most people are not super hot or painfully ugly), I think grooming/confidence matters much more. All other things being equal, I don't think that a 6 is going to outperform a 4.


Not really. If you're a woman, you should aim to be pretty, but not super hot because that will actually hurt your chances.

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Lasers
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby Lasers » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:10 am

cinephile wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Appearances play a role, but I think physical beauty only matters at the extremes. If you're super hot, you're probably going to outperform your credentials. If you're physically painful to look at, you're probably going to underperform. But in the typical situation (most people are not super hot or painfully ugly), I think grooming/confidence matters much more. All other things being equal, I don't think that a 6 is going to outperform a 4.


Not really. If you're a woman, you should aim to be pretty, but not super hot because that will actually hurt your chances.

unless you're being interviewed by men.

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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby Pokemon » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:27 am

Lasers wrote:
cinephile wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Appearances play a role, but I think physical beauty only matters at the extremes. If you're super hot, you're probably going to outperform your credentials. If you're physically painful to look at, you're probably going to underperform. But in the typical situation (most people are not super hot or painfully ugly), I think grooming/confidence matters much more. All other things being equal, I don't think that a 6 is going to outperform a 4.


Not really. If you're a woman, you should aim to be pretty, but not super hot because that will actually hurt your chances.

unless you're being interviewed by men.


Which is like 80% of interviewers...

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cinephile
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby cinephile » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:36 am

Pokemon wrote:
Lasers wrote:unless you're being interviewed by men.


Which is like 80% of interviewers...


You've got to be kidding. I'm a woman and pretty much everyone who has interviewed me has been a woman.

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Lasers
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby Lasers » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:49 am

cinephile wrote:
Pokemon wrote:
Lasers wrote:unless you're being interviewed by men.


Which is like 80% of interviewers...


You've got to be kidding. I'm a woman and pretty much everyone who has interviewed me has been a woman.

at the callback stage, it's very, very likely you get an even amount of men and women. so yeah, it's basically impossible to avoid running into at least one female interviewer.

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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby Pokemon » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:50 am

cinephile wrote:
Pokemon wrote:
Lasers wrote:unless you're being interviewed by men.


Which is like 80% of interviewers...


You've got to be kidding. I'm a woman and pretty much everyone who has interviewed me has been a woman.


No joke, out of about 25 interviewers (some had two people), I remember only 6 being women. I would not be surprised however if they do some sort of pre-selecting, women interviewing female students. Most firms at my OCI had more than one interviewer allowing them to do that sort of a selection.

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Lasers
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby Lasers » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:53 am

Pokemon wrote:
cinephile wrote:
Pokemon wrote:
Lasers wrote:unless you're being interviewed by men.


Which is like 80% of interviewers...


You've got to be kidding. I'm a woman and pretty much everyone who has interviewed me has been a woman.


No joke, out of about 25 interviewers (some had two people), I remember only 6 being women. I would not be surprised however if they do some sort of pre-selecting, women interviewing female students. Most firms at my OCI had more than one interviewer allowing them to do that sort of a selection.

at the screener stage, i think i had a similar ratio as well. a lot more men interviewers.

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cinephile
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby cinephile » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:54 am

^ I seriously think they pre-select their interviewers based on who they're interviewing. I'm also a racial minority and you can bet I'm interviewed by plenty of minorities.

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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby Pokemon » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:56 am

In retrospect, at CB stage, I did not interview with a single female lawyer. They definitely pre-select who you will meet to match your gender.

luv2luvmyalf
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby luv2luvmyalf » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:30 am

H&G -- Thanks for the suggestion; I cited some of Campos's work in my law review note, so it probably is a good idea to contact him. I have a clerkship for next year and I'm applying for appellate ones, so right now I'm not applying to firms. At this point, I'm seriously thinking that I might be more likely to make money writing fat liberation books (a la Marilyn Wann or Sondra Solovay) than to get a good job from a legal employer. I might be able to work for NAAFA (National Association for the Advancement of Fat Acceptance) or somebody like that though.

Myself
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.

Postby Myself » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:10 pm

.
Last edited by Myself on Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

luv2luvmyalf
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby luv2luvmyalf » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:00 pm

Lol, if I had a job as a law professor would I be posting here? Would I be claiming to be a fat man, when I was in fact an average-weight woman (plenty of pictures available if you google Rhode)? I suppose I could be intending to drum up some kind of buzz about my article (that has been out since 2009), particularly since she wrote a larger book since then, but would a thread frequented by unemployed law students sell books? I doubt it.

In reality I have no connection whatsoever to Deborah Rhode other than reading her work.

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jkpolk
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby jkpolk » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:53 pm

luv2luvmyalf wrote:Also, if you think it's okay for appearance to be given the central role it is, read Stanford Prof Deborah Rhode's brilliant law review article "The Injustice of Appearance." It demonstrates how much this ridiculous bias costs society.

http://www.stanfordlawreview.org/sites/ ... /Rhode.pdf


Had a good laugh at the table of contents. TYFT

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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:30 pm

To be honest (and this is totally and completely shitty), physical appearance probably only matters if you're female. As a decent looking male who could probably stand to lose 20-30 pounds, I don't think I suffered any negative effects.

There is also a really funny bit by a comedian (can't remmeber who) that talks about how being ugly is really the worst thing you can possibly be. I'm going to try to find it and link it here, cause its defo relevant.

edit; here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... owaJ8dRK5k I think you all will enjoy it haha.. it is relevant to this discussion.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:59 pm

luv2luvmyalf wrote:Some of the things people have said here make me sick, although the fact that most of them are true is the most sickening of all.

I am a 3L at a T30 school, ranked 5th in the class. I'm male, 5'9 and roughly 270 lbs. I weigh less today than I did in high school. My doctor says I am in the normal range for cholesterol, blood sugar, all the other lipids, and basically everything.

I got no-offered after summering at a big-law firm and I realized they wanted "beautiful people" who will be the high society of their city in 10 years. I'm also already 36, so I wouldn't be in that group no matter what I looked like.

My note is about to come out in the law review; it's on weight discrimination, and it's fairly personal. I realize nobody will hire me and I just don't care anymore. I've spent my whole life trying to lose weight, and I guarantee you I eat less than the average person here. Google Jeffrey Friedman, and if you know anything about genetics, look at his heritability research. Weight is about as heritable as height and is moreso than lots of things we think of as genetic conditions -- cancer, heart disease, schizophrenia.

This doesn't mean there aren't people who are fat because they sit on their ass and eat jelly donuts, I know there are, though its possible they sit on their ass and eat jelly donuts because of society's treatment of their predisposition to be fat. But to assume that a person is lazy because they are fat is no better than to assume that based on their race, nationality, gender, or any other characteristic.


This story sounds familiar. Were you the one from Emory who posted on the no-offer thread but you have a federal clerkship lined up after? I agree with you that people shouldn't be discriminated against on this basis but I think since so much of our judgment about people is quick and unconscious it will be hard to fight against.

The one thing I will say about the heritability research is why do we have so much more overweight people now than 30 or 50 years ago? Obviously our genes haven't changed.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:02 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:The one thing I will say about the heritability research is why do we have so much more overweight people now than 30 or 50 years ago? Obviously our genes haven't changed.

Just because not all those people are overweight due to genetic factors doesn't mean none of them are.

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cinephile
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby cinephile » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:13 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:The one thing I will say about the heritability research is why do we have so much more overweight people now than 30 or 50 years ago? Obviously our genes haven't changed.


I wouldn't be surprised if environmental pollutants, including those in our foods, actually have mutated our genes. Or if some people are just genetically predisposed not to process processed foods as well as others can.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:20 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:The one thing I will say about the heritability research is why do we have so much more overweight people now than 30 or 50 years ago? Obviously our genes haven't changed.

Just because not all those people are overweight due to genetic factors doesn't mean none of them are.


I didn't say none of them are....not sure how you got that impression from what I wrote. I just don't think genetics can explain everything. Maybe this
cinephile wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if environmental pollutants, including those in our foods, actually have mutated our genes. Or if some people are just genetically predisposed not to process processed foods as well as others can.
explains a little more. But at least if you have access to and can afford non-processed food, you can choose not to eat processed food if you don't process it well.
Last edited by somewhatwayward on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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StylinNProfilin
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby StylinNProfilin » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:21 pm

Or maybe just maybe people eat like crap now thanks to the ease of fast food

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:26 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:The one thing I will say about the heritability research is why do we have so much more overweight people now than 30 or 50 years ago? Obviously our genes haven't changed.

Just because not all those people are overweight due to genetic factors doesn't mean none of them are.


I didn't say none of them are....not sure how you got that impression from what I wrote.


Well, your statement suggested it couldn't be genes because we have more fat people today, so yeah, actually, that is the impression I got. But I also agree with cinephile, and think that modern food has changed enough in 50 years that people who weren't fat 50 years ago would be fat now, and not able to lose that weight given the nature of the modern diet.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:35 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:The one thing I will say about the heritability research is why do we have so much more overweight people now than 30 or 50 years ago? Obviously our genes haven't changed.

Just because not all those people are overweight due to genetic factors doesn't mean none of them are.


I didn't say none of them are....not sure how you got that impression from what I wrote.


Well, your statement suggested it couldn't be genes because we have more fat people today, so yeah, actually, that is the impression I got. But I also agree with cinephile, and think that modern food has changed enough in 50 years that people who weren't fat 50 years ago would be fat now, and not able to lose that weight given the nature of the modern diet.


Well there were some overweight people then, which could've been driven by genetics. Your inference just seemed out of left field but I guess I should've qualified my statement with 'I can imagine genetics plays a role in weight, but...'

Actually one other way genetics might be playing a larger role now than it used to is if there have been epigenetic changes (ie changes to whether/when/how much various genes are expressed). I remember seeing some research about how maternal weight correlated with the weight of the child. They thought this might be caused partially by epigenetic changes to the fetus in utero based on the mother's weight. Obviously there are confounding environmental factors, but there is some ability to control for those if you have the same mother with the same environment but who was different weights for different pregnancies.

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AlanShore
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Re: Does physical appearance play a role in the hiring process?

Postby AlanShore » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:38 pm

cinephile wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:The one thing I will say about the heritability research is why do we have so much more overweight people now than 30 or 50 years ago? Obviously our genes haven't changed.


I wouldn't be surprised if environmental pollutants, including those in our foods, actually have mutated our genes. Or if some people are just genetically predisposed not to process processed foods as well as others can.

agree. there are plenty of studies that support this.




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