1l sa why this system?

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Sheffield
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby Sheffield » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:08 pm

dingbat wrote:
Sheffield wrote:In its own way it does not make sense NOT to hire a 1LSA. In their first year they know zip (ditto 2SA). By the second year the SA is leaps ahead of the firm across the street that just brought on a newbie 2L. By the third year the SA with three summers of experience is good-to-go. Some firms (ahead of the curve) get this! Why the others don't, hard to understand their logic (perhaps they are managed by boomers. . . which would explain a lot about "why this system").

Basically, paying someone $30k+ with no way of knowing if you'll ever see them again does not make sense. They do it for 2Ls because most 2Ls end up working at the firm and it's a "try before you buy" situation

I concede that you may have a good point but without hard stats, hard to say/know. I would think most would stay (at a place where they liked) unless something much meatier came along. . . that could happen at any stage of their career.

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IAFG
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:17 pm

Sheffield wrote:
IAFG wrote:
ph14 wrote:
Sheffield wrote:In its own way it does not make sense NOT to hire a 1LSA. In their first year they know zip (ditto 2SA). By the second year the SA is leaps ahead of the firm across the street that just brought on a newbie 2L. By the third year the SA with three summers of experience is good-to-go. Some firms (ahead of the curve) get this! Why the others don't, hard to understand their logic (perhaps they are managed by boomers. . . which would explain a lot about "why this system").


There are so many problems with this post.

it was exhausting to read.

No question about it. . .these posts about 1Ls getting SAs are exhausting to read and understand. Good news is that this three day weekend will give you time to recuperate. :roll:

you are just paralyzingly wrong. it's like facing the prospect of explaining science to bill o'reilly.

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ph14
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby ph14 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:20 pm

IAFG wrote:
Sheffield wrote:
IAFG wrote:
ph14 wrote:There are so many problems with this post.

it was exhausting to read.

No question about it. . .these posts about 1Ls getting SAs are exhausting to read and understand. Good news is that this three day weekend will give you time to recuperate. :roll:

you are just paralyzingly wrong. it's like facing the prospect of explaining science to bill o'reilly.


This. I don't have enough time/energy to explain, nor does IAFG I think.

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dingbat
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby dingbat » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:57 pm

Sheffield wrote:I concede that you may have a good point but without hard stats, hard to say/know. I would think most would stay (at a place where they liked) unless something much meatier came along. . . that could happen at any stage of their career.

But why does the firm need this? ITE, there are students at even the top schools clamoring for jobs. An SA is basically the firm handing you more than what many people earn in a year (it's more than twice what a minimum wage earner makes in a year) for the privilege of sitting in a swanky office doing nothing of any real use. For them, it's a matter of securing the best and brightest and giving them a test run to see if they're capable of functioning in the real world. In the era where jobs were plenty, they were more likely to offer a 1L SA to secure the cream of the crop, but in this era, where people from top schools end up unemployed, they don't need to do any more than the bare minimum.

They're not in the business of teaching you what to do (that's what law school is for). They also don't need a 1L SA to recruit top students, they can just nab them at OCI (and if you're truly stellar, you can still land a 1L SA)

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somewhatwayward
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby somewhatwayward » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:11 am

Sheffield wrote:In its own way it does not make sense NOT to hire a 1LSA. In their first year they know zip (ditto 2SA). By the second year the SA is leaps ahead of the firm across the street that just brought on a newbie 2L. By the third year the SA with three summers of experience is good-to-go. Some firms (ahead of the curve) get this! Why the others don't, hard to understand their logic (perhaps they are managed by boomers. . . which would explain a lot about "why this system").


LOL, wut? [insert LOLWUTpear.jpg circa 2010]

Someone who has never set foot in the firm can perform better than someone who has spent three summers there, HTH...happens all the time, in fact. If firms really thought that getting people in there for more summers was somehow helpful, there'd be more people doing multiple SAs at the same firm.

You know how teachers lament that students regress academically over the summer while they're not in school? The same thing happens to people working as SAs. By the time they go back to start working a year later, they're probably indistinguishable law firm skills as a group of law students with similar credentials who didn't do their summer there. Firms know this. They are paying to give the SAs a test run. If you pick up skills, that's a bonus.

nleefer
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby nleefer » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:26 am

Renzo wrote:
wiseowl wrote:
IAFG wrote:
wiseowl wrote:I don't. But even at the most ludicrous estimates tossed around online with no substantiation ($300,000 plus salary and benefits per attorney LOL), there's still a comfortable profit margin for at least biglaw first years. Again, this assumes said first years meet their hours and the realization is 80-90%.

So you're pretty much talking out your ass. Do you know what DPW's lease costs? Cravath's?


Congrats on picking two awesome strawm...examples. Those firms also have billing rates and clients that compensate for that.

You'll also note that my initial post before the passive aggressive train rolled in said "I." I know my billing rate, my realization rate, and at least a rough idea of my firm's finances. I don't know those things for a kid slaving away at Cravath. I do know that that kid is also billing 2500 at ~400/hr. That's what's paying that rent.

The statement was made above (secondhand, by a law student) that 1st and 2nd year associates are money losers. Yes, they can be, especially at small firms in secondary markets, where they almost certainly are money losers. They all are not.


No first-year on plant earth is being billed at $400/hr. Not even as a headline rate.


Not actually true.

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EvilClinton
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby EvilClinton » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:33 am

nleefer wrote:Not actually true.


The billing rates at the firm I worked at were more like 150-200 for 1-3year associates. It jumped in the fourth year when the firm designated you a senior associate.

400 is absurdly high for a first year.

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Sheffield
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby Sheffield » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:04 am

IAFG wrote:. . . you are just paralyzingly wrong. it's like facing the prospect of explaining science to bill o'reilly.


That was cute. (Truly was!).

So I take it you did not do a 1LSA, is that it? Everyone I know who landed a 1LSA is back this year and I cannot imagine that they will not be eventually offered. 1L is a gift, no question, Aside from deposit slips there is the BIG plus of missing the stress of OCI, mass mailings, etc. As far as the firms, I am just not seeing or feeling the downside you are imagining.

Anonymous User
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:19 am

This is slightly off topic, but I didn't want to create a new thread in order to get a response.

I'm a 1L at HYS and will spend the summer at a firm in a secondary market near where I grew up. I've spent some time away (abroad, mostly), but I'm a little worried about sending the message to firms at OCI/EIP that I want to be near that market in the long term. I need warmth, and my home area does not have that. Really, I just wanted the law firm experience this summer. With a decent reason to be in Los Angeles, for example, do you think I could swing it (assuming median grades and above average interviewing)?

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ph14
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby ph14 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:This is slightly off topic, but I didn't want to create a new thread in order to get a response.

I'm a 1L at HYS and will spend the summer at a firm in a secondary market near where I grew up. I've spent some time away (abroad, mostly), but I'm a little worried about sending the message to firms at OCI/EIP that I want to be near that market in the long term. I need warmth, and my home area does not have that. Really, I just wanted the law firm experience this summer. With a decent reason to be in Los Angeles, for example, do you think I could swing it (assuming median grades and above average interviewing)?


Yes, absolutely. Just pretty much say this exactly in your OCI interviews.

nleefer
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby nleefer » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:22 am

EvilClinton wrote:
nleefer wrote:Not actually true.


The billing rates at the firm I worked at were more like 150-200 for 1-3year associates. It jumped in the fourth year when the firm designated you a senior associate.

400 is absurdly high for a first year.


Different firms bill differently. My firm bills first years out at a high rate, but doesn't have the big jump at year four.

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dingbat
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby dingbat » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:27 am

Sheffield wrote:
IAFG wrote:. . . you are just paralyzingly wrong. it's like facing the prospect of explaining science to bill o'reilly.


That was cute. (Truly was!).

So I take it you did not do a 1LSA, is that it? Everyone I know who landed a 1LSA is back this year and I cannot imagine that they will not be eventually offered. 1L is a gift, no question, Aside from deposit slips there is the BIG plus of missing the stress of OCI, mass mailings, etc. As far as the firms, I am just not seeing or feeling the downside you are imagining.
The downside is the money it costs them.
I just don't see the upside (except for the possibility of snagging the truly spectacular students)

Renzo
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Re: 1l sa why this system?

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:08 pm

nleefer wrote:
Renzo wrote:
No first-year on plant earth is being billed at $400/hr. Not even as a headline rate.


Not actually true.


Well, according to the AmLaw survey of the largest 300 firms in the US, none of them bill out a first-year at $400/hr. So, I would love to see some proof.




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