Texas Scale vs. New York

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Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:29 pm

I'm currently deciding between summering at a NY firm in Texas vs. VE, BB, FJ, Bracewell, or Andrews Kurth.

The NY salary scale is readily available, but I've had a hard time finding accurate/consistent information about the Texas firms. All of them start at $160k but I think the most important info about base salaries/bonuses for later years is difficult to find. Can anyone point me in the right direction (already tried searching) or chime in with the numbers? Thanks.

badaboom61
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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby badaboom61 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:39 pm

NYC salaries tend to be significantly better in the long run, especially after year 4 or so. But chances are you won't be in biglaw that long anyway, so that might not be your primary consideration.

I would instead look at the firms' 2L summer associate offer rates and decide based on that. Big Texas firms, notably BB and TK, screwed a lot of summer associates last year and I wouldn't want to knowingly put myself in that position.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:45 pm

badaboom61 wrote:NYC salaries tend to be significantly better in the long run, especially after year 4 or so. But chances are you won't be in biglaw that long anyway, so that might not be your primary consideration.

I would instead look at the firms' 2L summer associate offer rates and decide based on that. Big Texas firms, notably BB and TK, screwed a lot of summer associates last year and I wouldn't want to knowingly put myself in that position.


OP here, BB offer rate last summer was 87.2% (abovethelaw)? And thanks, but again, I'm looking more for salary information/data points.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:01 pm

V&E appears to pay NY scale for first-, seventh-, and eighth-year associates (LinkRemoved). Not sure what scale V&E uses for years two through six (could be NY scale, too).

Why are you talking about deciding between some of those firms when you could easily split between V&E/BB/F&J & AK?

Also, do your due diligence on offer rates. TLS rumors at the end of last summer suggested cold offers at some Texas firms (including one on your list).

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:V&E appears to pay NY scale for first-, seventh-, and eighth-year associates (LinkRemoved). Not sure what scale V&E uses for years two through six (could be NY scale, too).

Why are you talking about deciding between some of those firms when you could easily split between V&E/BB/F&J & AK?

Also, do your due diligence on offer rates. TLS rumors at the end of last summer suggested cold offers at some Texas firms (including one on your list).


OP here: Thanks! I think the biggest decision is really between doing the split as you suggested, or choosing the NY firm in TX because they don't allow splitting. And thanks also for the cold offer tip, I'll look in to that.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:50 pm

Bump? Any associates/summers have an idea for mid-level/senior associates?

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:34 pm

My firm (V50 satellite) has mentioned that they were "comparable" to V&E in Houston, and we're based on NYC lockstep even in the Houston office. BB for sure does not have lockstep and uses a 3-tier black box system.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:40 pm

V&E has two options: a high hours and a low hours track. They pay according to the track you are on.

kujhawk24
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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby kujhawk24 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:37 pm

As someone who is married to an individual in one of the firms you reference and has family in a few other firms you listed as well as some New York based firms, this may be perhaps the most meaningless deciding factor.

I have been around Big Law for quite some time and there are several things I can assure you...

a) the odds that you will be with the firm long enough for it to matter are slim.

b) the odds that the firm compensation structure will be exactly the same as it is now are slim to none.

c) even if everything remains constant and there is a difference of a few thousand in the later years... we are talking about relatively small differences in pay scale for a few years.

Your fit with the firm should be the primary deciding factor. Between the firms you have listed... these are all different fits. Small pay differences in years 4, 5, 6 are irrelevant in my opinion.

BigLawer
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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby BigLawer » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:04 pm

kujhawk24 wrote:As someone who is married to an individual in one of the firms you reference and has family in a few other firms you listed as well as some New York based firms, this may be perhaps the most meaningless deciding factor.

I have been around Big Law for quite some time and there are several things I can assure you...

a) the odds that you will be with the firm long enough for it to matter are slim.

b) the odds that the firm compensation structure will be exactly the same as it is now are slim to none.

c) even if everything remains constant and there is a difference of a few thousand in the later years... we are talking about relatively small differences in pay scale for a few years.

Your fit with the firm should be the primary deciding factor. Between the firms you have listed... these are all different fits. Small pay differences in years 4, 5, 6 are irrelevant in my opinion.


This is interesting. I have heard the difference can be rather drastic. I believe (and could be completely wrong) that FJ, BB, AK, etc pay about 205-210 for a 6th year where a NYC step at that point would be 250k. This is a 40-45k difference (before bonus) and that is very substantial.

If you do plan on trying to make a career in working at firms I would suggest looking at exit options between these and see which firm seems to make it easiest to lateral into another firm.

My guess on this would be working at V&E would make it not to difficult to lateral into another firm doing transactional work
Also, working for Fulbright may make it easier to lateral to another firm in Texas doing litigation work.
(At least I hope this is right because if I end up in Texas, this is my plan; try to make partner at first firm, if I am told I am not on track try to lateral to a firm that I have a better chance of making partner at)

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby rad lulz » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:08 pm

I know you don't want to hear it, but do the one (or ones) with the best offer rates.

I know at least one person who got double no-offered in TX.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:
badaboom61 wrote:NYC salaries tend to be significantly better in the long run, especially after year 4 or so. But chances are you won't be in biglaw that long anyway, so that might not be your primary consideration.

I would instead look at the firms' 2L summer associate offer rates and decide based on that. Big Texas firms, notably BB and TK, screwed a lot of summer associates last year and I wouldn't want to knowingly put myself in that position.


OP here, BB offer rate last summer was 87.2% (abovethelaw)? And thanks, but again, I'm looking more for salary information/data points.


Do you guys have stats on BB Dallas & BB Houston offers? I heard that one of these offices made a LOT of no-offers.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
badaboom61 wrote:NYC salaries tend to be significantly better in the long run, especially after year 4 or so. But chances are you won't be in biglaw that long anyway, so that might not be your primary consideration.

I would instead look at the firms' 2L summer associate offer rates and decide based on that. Big Texas firms, notably BB and TK, screwed a lot of summer associates last year and I wouldn't want to knowingly put myself in that position.


OP here, BB offer rate last summer was 87.2% (abovethelaw)? And thanks, but again, I'm looking more for salary information/data points.


Do you guys have stats on BB Dallas & BB Houston offers? I heard that one of these offices made a LOT of no-offers.


BB Houston made a lot of no-offers. They had a big class, like 50, and then ended up no-offering somewhere between 10-15.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
badaboom61 wrote:NYC salaries tend to be significantly better in the long run, especially after year 4 or so. But chances are you won't be in biglaw that long anyway, so that might not be your primary consideration.

I would instead look at the firms' 2L summer associate offer rates and decide based on that. Big Texas firms, notably BB and TK, screwed a lot of summer associates last year and I wouldn't want to knowingly put myself in that position.


OP here, BB offer rate last summer was 87.2% (abovethelaw)? And thanks, but again, I'm looking more for salary information/data points.


Do you guys have stats on BB Dallas & BB Houston offers? I heard that one of these offices made a LOT of no-offers.


BB Houston made a lot of no-offers. They had a big class, like 50, and then ended up no-offering somewhere between 10-15.


Thank you very much. Anyone have the BB Dallas statistics? Those may have been worse...

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:Thank you very much. Anyone have the BB Dallas statistics? Those may have been worse...]


I don't know the exact offer rate for BB Dallas, but they definitely gave out a lot of offers. I haven't heard of a no-offer, but there could have been. The odd thing is that I've heard that the majority of their summers did not accept those offers. Could just be an anomaly, but I found that troubling when I went through the OCI process last fall.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thank you very much. Anyone have the BB Dallas statistics? Those may have been worse...]


I don't know the exact offer rate for BB Dallas, but they definitely gave out a lot of offers. I haven't heard of a no-offer, but there could have been. The odd thing is that I've heard that the majority of their summers did not accept those offers. Could just be an anomaly, but I found that troubling when I went through the OCI process last fall.


Could you elaborate? I'll be working at BB Dallas as a 1L this summer and have been hearing bad things about it on here.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thank you very much. Anyone have the BB Dallas statistics? Those may have been worse...]


I don't know the exact offer rate for BB Dallas, but they definitely gave out a lot of offers. I haven't heard of a no-offer, but there could have been. The odd thing is that I've heard that the majority of their summers did not accept those offers. Could just be an anomaly, but I found that troubling when I went through the OCI process last fall.


Could you elaborate? I'll be working at BB Dallas as a 1L this summer and have been hearing bad things about it on here.


It is always a bad idea to work at 1 of the Big 3 in Dallas. If you can, do Houston over Dallas. Or look into some of the other firms in Dallas (Haynes and Boone, AG, Weil, etc) but I have heard from sources that being in the Dallas office of one of the big 3 is not a great idea.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:46 pm

It is always a bad idea to work at 1 of the Big 3 in Dallas. If you can, do Houston over Dallas. Or look into some of the other firms in Dallas (Haynes and Boone, AG, Weil, etc) but I have heard from sources that being in the Dallas office of one of the big 3 is not a great idea.[/quote]

Isn't the idea though that you can generally lateral from one of the big 3 to those firms but not so easily the other direction?

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thank you very much. Anyone have the BB Dallas statistics? Those may have been worse...]


I don't know the exact offer rate for BB Dallas, but they definitely gave out a lot of offers. I haven't heard of a no-offer, but there could have been. The odd thing is that I've heard that the majority of their summers did not accept those offers. Could just be an anomaly, but I found that troubling when I went through the OCI process last fall.


Could you elaborate? I'll be working at BB Dallas as a 1L this summer and have been hearing bad things about it on here.


I can't elaborate because that's all I really know. Like I said, it could have been an anomaly. The people that I personally know that turned down BB Dallas didn't necessarily say anything negative about the firm, just that they liked their other firm better. If you're going to BB Dallas as a 1L, I'm sure you'll have plenty of options during 2L OCI, and you may love BB. So don't sweat it.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Thank you very much. Anyone have the BB Dallas statistics? Those may have been worse...]


I don't know the exact offer rate for BB Dallas, but they definitely gave out a lot of offers. I haven't heard of a no-offer, but there could have been. The odd thing is that I've heard that the majority of their summers did not accept those offers. Could just be an anomaly, but I found that troubling when I went through the OCI process last fall.


Could you elaborate? I'll be working at BB Dallas as a 1L this summer and have been hearing bad things about it on here.


I can't elaborate because that's all I really know. Like I said, it could have been an anomaly. The people that I personally know that turned down BB Dallas didn't necessarily say anything negative about the firm, just that they liked their other firm better. If you're going to BB Dallas as a 1L, I'm sure you'll have plenty of options during 2L OCI, and you may love BB. So don't sweat it.


Know of a few people who were at BB Dallas during their 1L summer who worked very hard to get at different firms for 2L. Didn't seem like there were any specific complaints, just weren't really happy with the office atmosphere. BB is a prestigious Texas firm, but many say the culture is a tad conservative and stuffy.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Know of a few people who were at BB Dallas during their 1L summer who worked very hard to get at different firms for 2L. Didn't seem like there were any specific complaints, just weren't really happy with the office atmosphere. BB is a prestigious Texas firm, but many say the culture is a tad conservative and stuffy.


Yeah that's what I've heard. They changed the return requirement to be 5 weeks at the beginning of 2L summer, I guess to prevent people from doing that.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
It is always a bad idea to work at 1 of the Big 3 in Dallas. If you can, do Houston over Dallas. Or look into some of the other firms in Dallas (Haynes and Boone, AG, Weil, etc) but I have heard from sources that being in the Dallas office of one of the big 3 is not a great idea.


Isn't the idea though that you can generally lateral from one of the big 3 to those firms but not so easily the other direction?

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Citizen Genet » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:59 pm

BigLawer wrote:
This is interesting. I have heard the difference can be rather drastic. I believe (and could be completely wrong) that FJ, BB, AK, etc pay about 205-210 for a 6th year where a NYC step at that point would be 250k. This is a 40-45k difference (before bonus) and that is very substantial.


Just an FYI, under current tax rate schedules, NY state tax would be about $16,250 on that salary (filing singly or separately). In addition to that, if you live in NYC, there's an additional $9,000 in city tax that would be assessed on top of that. So the 40-45k difference turns into about a 15-20k difference all else equal. (All else equal is a bad assumption considering the, hopefully still to be around later, deduction of state income tax from federal tax. Even as a bad assumption, the difference won't be as drastic.) Considering what it costs to live in Dallas versus New York, even at the 6th year scale you give, you'll be getting way more bang for your buck in Dallas.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:51 pm

Citizen Genet wrote:
BigLawer wrote:
This is interesting. I have heard the difference can be rather drastic. I believe (and could be completely wrong) that FJ, BB, AK, etc pay about 205-210 for a 6th year where a NYC step at that point would be 250k. This is a 40-45k difference (before bonus) and that is very substantial.


Just an FYI, under current tax rate schedules, NY state tax would be about $16,250 on that salary (filing singly or separately). In addition to that, if you live in NYC, there's an additional $9,000 in city tax that would be assessed on top of that. So the 40-45k difference turns into about a 15-20k difference all else equal. (All else equal is a bad assumption considering the, hopefully still to be around later, deduction of state income tax from federal tax. Even as a bad assumption, the difference won't be as drastic.) Considering what it costs to live in Dallas versus New York, even at the 6th year scale you give, you'll be getting way more bang for your buck in Dallas.


I believe the OP is really asking about firms that pay NYC lock step in Texas, like Weil or Gibson Dunn, and those that do not, like Baker Botts. So COL isn't really an issue here.

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Re: Texas Scale vs. New York

Postby unlicensedpotato » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I believe the OP is really asking about firms that pay NYC lock step in Texas, like Weil or Gibson Dunn, and those that do not, like Baker Botts. So COL isn't really an issue here.


Right, he was asking about a Texas office of a national firm. My impression has been that you'll get paid more as an associate at one of the satellite offices but you have a much better chance to make partner at one of the Texas firms.




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