Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

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Anonymous User
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:01 pm

Tanicius wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:anyone care to actually engage the substance of his responses? they seem pretty cogent


Perfect use of anon.


No. They're not cogent. They're shit.

There IS an oversupply of lawyers. The BLS and NALP say so. His response consists entirely of briefly describing what he hopes the legal market should be, or what he thinks it should be, not what it is. He might as well say "evolution doesn't happen because the world is complex and God should do it." His argument is on par with that.

He says that law professors are not overpaid. He proves this by quoting a law professors' starting salary at Case Western. He does not mention teaching load. Nor does he get to any useful point: can law schools cut cost? To that, he says "we have to keep the lights on." That is the shittiest response ever, in fact. Critics of law schools build better straw men than that.

He says that job statistics underreport the number of students actually getting jobs because the statistics only go 9 months after graduation. That's a great argument, Dean. Please, do tell us more. "I haven't looked at the stats a year out." The only correct response to that is "go fuck yourself."

Wanna come out of annon yet?

There is just no objective way that anyone, even you, annon/Dean Mitchell, can say Dean Mitchell's responses a) cast doubt on the by now conventionally assumed proposition that law schools need to 1) drastically lower class sizes, 2) increase teaching loads, 3) decrease hiring of faculty and staff, and 4) lower tuition OR b) claim his responses provide much support for any other relevant proposition. His responses were NOT cogent.

And I would strongly urge any professor or Dean reading these forums not to publicly agree with Dean Mitchell, because when the economy recovers but the legal market stays structurally weak against unchanged supply, you will have embarrassed yourself, because by that time, your fellow faculty, to put it nicely, will have taken their heads of our their asses and forgot they agreed with you way back when, and you'll be left holding the bag.

Remember that scene in The Adventures of Ron Burgundy when Ron, the local San Diego news anchor who mindlessly reads anything put on his teleprompter, ends a newscast saying "go fuck yourself San Diego," and then, after the cameras stop rolling, goes on to say "hey guys, nice work, another great broadcast in the books," and is then flummoxed by everyone's silent shock? Well, Dean Mitchel is Ron Burgundy. Bloomberg Law is running a headline that he is denying that there is an oversupply of lawyers. This is in fact a disastrous interview for the legal academy, and Dean Mitchel, and the legal academy, seem not to even realize it.

Great interview for whoever that reporter is. He essentially put Dean Mitchel in a deposition and fucked him over. "So, law school is like a business?" And when he went in for the kill, the Dean got pushed off his game and said something stupid. At least this gives you a sense of what farce the defense of the status quo is.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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dingbat
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby dingbat » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:09 pm

I think he's making a good case for Troll of the Year 2013


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Tanicius
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby Tanicius » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:anyone care to actually engage the substance of his responses? they seem pretty cogent


Perfect use of anon.


No. They're not cogent. They're shit.

Wanna come out of annon yet?



Your use of anon is even more perfect-er.

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manofjustice
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby manofjustice » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:14 pm

Tanicius wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:anyone care to actually engage the substance of his responses? they seem pretty cogent


Perfect use of anon.


No. They're not cogent. They're shit.

Wanna come out of annon yet?



Your use of anon is even more perfect-er.


Mistake. But I mean, come on, you have to know who it is.

edit: can Mods delete the previous annon post?
Last edited by manofjustice on Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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manofjustice
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby manofjustice » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:15 pm

Tanicius wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:anyone care to actually engage the substance of his responses? they seem pretty cogent


Perfect use of anon.


No. They're not cogent. They're shit.

There IS an oversupply of lawyers. The BLS and NALP say so. His response consists entirely of briefly describing what he hopes the legal market should be, or what he thinks it should be, not what it is. He might as well say "evolution doesn't happen because the world is complex and God should do it." His argument is on par with that.

He says that law professors are not overpaid. He proves this by quoting a law professors' starting salary at Case Western. He does not mention teaching load. Nor does he get to any useful point: can law schools cut cost? To that, he says "we have to keep the lights on." That is the shittiest response ever, in fact. Critics of law schools build better straw men than that.

He says that job statistics underreport the number of students actually getting jobs because the statistics only go 9 months after graduation. That's a great argument, Dean. Please, do tell us more. "I haven't looked at the stats a year out." The only correct response to that is "go fuck yourself."

Wanna come out of annon yet?

There is just no objective way that anyone, even you, annon/Dean Mitchell, can say Dean Mitchell's responses a) cast doubt on the by now conventionally assumed proposition that law schools need to 1) drastically lower class sizes, 2) increase teaching loads, 3) decrease hiring of faculty and staff, and 4) lower tuition OR b) claim his responses provide much support for any other relevant proposition. His responses were NOT cogent.

And I would strongly urge any professor or Dean reading these forums not to publicly agree with Dean Mitchell, because when the economy recovers but the legal market stays structurally weak against unchanged supply, you will have embarrassed yourself, because by that time, your fellow faculty, to put it nicely, will have taken their heads of our their asses and forgot they agreed with you way back when, and you'll be left holding the bag.

Remember that scene in The Adventures of Ron Burgundy when Ron, the local San Diego news anchor who mindlessly reads anything put on his teleprompter, ends a newscast saying "go fuck yourself San Diego," and then, after the cameras stop rolling, goes on to say "hey guys, nice work, another great broadcast in the books," and is then flummoxed by everyone's silent shock? Well, Dean Mitchel is Ron Burgundy. Bloomberg Law is running a headline that he is denying that there is an oversupply of lawyers. This is in fact a disastrous interview for the legal academy, and Dean Mitchel, and the legal academy, seem not to even realize it.

Great interview for whoever that reporter is. He essentially put Dean Mitchel in a deposition and fucked him over. "So, law school is like a business?" And when he went in for the kill, the Dean got pushed off his game and said something stupid. At least this gives you a sense of what a farce the defense of the status quo is.
Last edited by manofjustice on Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:21 pm

Here is the most recent ABA employment data on Case. Did he address this in his promo piece?

Cleveland, OH 44106 Website : law.case.edu Phone : 216-368-3283 CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY - 2012 (2011 GRADUATES) 11075 East Boulevard
EMPLOYMENT SUMMARY FOR 2011 GRADUATES
EMPLOYMENT STATUS FULL TIME LONG TERM FULL TIME SHORT TERM PART TIME LONG TERM PART TIME SHORT TERM NUMBER
Employed - Bar Passage Required 94 7 5 29 135
Employed - JD Advantage 17 3 3 1 24
Employed - Professional Position 2 0 0 2 4
Employed - Non-Professional Position 0 1 1 0 2
Employed - Undeterminable * 0 0 0 0 0
Pursuing Graduate Degree Full Time 4
Unemployed - Start Date Deferred 0
Unemployed - Not Seeking 2
Unemployed - Seeking 20
Employment Status Unknown 10
Total graduates 201
* A graduate in undeterminable category may or may not have a term defined
LAW SCHOOL/UNIVERSITY FUNDED POSITION FULL TIME LONG TERM FULL TIME SHORT TERM PART TIME LONG TERM PART TIME SHORT TERM NUMBER
Of Employed - Law School/University Funded 2 3 18 23
EMPLOYMENT TYPE FULL TIME LONG TERM FULL TIME SHORT TERM PART TIME LONG TERM PART TIME SHORT TERM NUMBER
Law Firms
Solo 1 0 0 0 1
2 - 10 24 1 1 6 32
11 - 25 4 0 2 0 6
26 - 50 4 0 0 1 5
51 - 100 6 0 0 0 6
101 - 250 12 1 0 0 13
251 - 500 6 0 0 0 6
501 + 8 0 0 0 8
Unknown 0 0 0 0 0
Business & industry 17 6 6 4 33
Government 18 0 0 7 25
Pub. Int. (inc. Pub. Def.) 6 0 0 13 19
Clerkships - Federal 1 0 0 0 1
Clerkships - State & local 2 0 0 1 3
Clerkships - Other 0 2 0 0 2
Academia 4 1 0 0 5
Employer type unknown 0 0 0 0 0
Total 113 11 9 32 165
EMPLOYMENT LOCATION STATE NUMBER
State# - largest employment Ohio 87
State# - 2nd largest employment New York 10
State# - 3rd largest employment California 6
# employed in foreign countries 6

Well, that did not post very well. Here is the link: http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org.

Myself
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Postby Myself » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:30 pm

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Postby Myself » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:32 pm

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timbs4339
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:52 pm

I'd love him to keep spouting this bullshit. For every 1 potential student that sees this video or reads a NYT editorial, there are probably 10 more who link to it from Gawker, Reddit, Gothamist, HuffPo, etc etc. On those sites there will also be links to Campos, Tamahana, LST or one of the 100 blogs that can post a detailed, point-by-point takedown of his arguments. In the end, it does more good than harm.

Honestly, it's difficult to attribute anything but a pure profit-motive to law professors and deans who make such simplistic and unsupported arguments.

uvabro
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby uvabro » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:56 am

timbs4339 wrote:I'd love him to keep spouting this bullshit. For every 1 potential student that sees this video or reads a NYT editorial, there are probably 10 more who link to it from Gawker, Reddit, Gothamist, HuffPo, etc etc. On those sites there will also be links to Campos, Tamahana, LST or one of the 100 blogs that can post a detailed, point-by-point takedown of his arguments. In the end, it does more good than harm.

Honestly, it's difficult to attribute anything but a pure profit-motive to law professors and deans who make such simplistic and unsupported arguments.

What do the professors have to gain from it particularly if they're already tenured? There's a good chance they'll be retired if not playing golf in Florida by the time there'll be sweeping changes.

More likely, they believe what they are saying. People want to have a positive legacy. Nobody wants to believe their job duty will unequivocally hurt more people than it helps.

There are some people who are helped by TTTT schools. They're the minority, but I still wouldn't call these people thieves. If they sugarcoat statistics that's one thing. If they're actually lying, which I didn't find any direct lies here then I'd be all for the crook label.

EDIT: The lack of oversupply of lawyers is a bad faith statement, but I still don't see evidence or motive for professors to lie.

Also at these TTTT many people ITE would not get great jobs in fields other than laws so what are they supposed to do? These people think they're a special snowflake. They won't take a shovel and do construction.

Myself
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Postby Myself » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:35 am

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Last edited by Myself on Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

uvabro
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby uvabro » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:37 am

ajax adonis wrote:
uvabro wrote:Also at these TTTT many people ITE would not get great jobs in fields other than laws so what are they supposed to do? These people think they're a special snowflake. They won't take a shovel and do construction.


If this is what you actually believe than you're dead wrong. ("Oh, these people couldn't find better jobs anyway! blah blah blah"). TTTT people would truly be better off spending 3 years living with their moms because at least they're not accruing debt. At least working at McD's doesn't put you in a 6-figure hole after 3 years. And "take a shovel and do construction"? What construction jobs are there, bro?

And what if they are special snowflakes with an oversized view of their role in life? That doesn't justify screwing them and defrauding them. Special snowflake or not, no one should have to have the wool pulled over their eyes.

Go back to UVA, bro, you ascot-wearing, perrier-drinking bro-douche.

that seems like the student's problem. if i expect a good hearty tasty meal at mcdonalds i'm an idiot. mcdonalds doesn't have to warn me their food is not good for me. they just can't lie about calorie content.

btw ad hominem attacks and generalizations don't make you more right. they just make you a dumb asshole.

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dingbat
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby dingbat » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:41 am

uvabro wrote:that seems like the student's problem. if i expect a good hearty tasty meal at mcdonalds i'm an idiot. mcdonalds doesn't have to warn me their food is not good for me. they just can't lie about calorie content.

I'm totally against TTTs, but I love this analogy and the thinking it represents (personal responsibility)

uvabro
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby uvabro » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:56 am

dingbat wrote:
uvabro wrote:that seems like the student's problem. if i expect a good hearty tasty meal at mcdonalds i'm an idiot. mcdonalds doesn't have to warn me their food is not good for me. they just can't lie about calorie content.

I'm totally against TTTs, but I love this analogy and the thinking it represents (personal responsibility)

seriously i only applied to t1's, but when i asked the tough q's, i got honest answers. you can't expect a business to advertise the unappealing info. either shut the business down which i'd be for, or just punish outright lies. expecting them to advertise they suck and then making an ad hominem attack to anyone who sees this proposition as unrealistic is the kind of extremist mindset possessed by those who attend ttt's.

for the record i agree they're better off working at mcdonalds than going to a ttt. if they think they're a special snowflake they're over 18 and can assume the risk. non-special people who think they're special are a-holes.

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IAFG
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby IAFG » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:40 am

dingbat wrote:
uvabro wrote:that seems like the student's problem. if i expect a good hearty tasty meal at mcdonalds i'm an idiot. mcdonalds doesn't have to warn me their food is not good for me. they just can't lie about calorie content.

I'm totally against TTTs, but I love this analogy and the thinking it represents (personal responsibility)

But TTTs do lie about the calorie count.

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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby Myself » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:50 am

uvabro wrote:for the record i agree they're better off working at mcdonalds than going to a ttt. if they think they're a special snowflake they're over 18 and can assume the risk. non-special people who think they're special are a-holes.


Sorry, I don't think reciting the words "caveat emptor" should serve as a license for law school administrators to run train on a student.

flcath
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby flcath » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:01 am

Interviewer: "The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics projects that there will be 74,000 new lawyer jobs opening up over the next decade. During that time, American law schools will graduate over 400,000 law graduates, so there's a massive oversupply problem."

Dean: "It's not clear to me there's an oversupply at all."

Interviewer: "Really, because that's like a 4-to-1 ratio."

Dean: "Well only 20% of the legal needs of poor people are being met. They should go [start firms that?] serve those people."

Interviewer: "But you can't do that if you're taking out six-figure debt."

Dean: "You know . . . you can and you can't. We've gotten into a situation where we measure the worth of higher eduction by the dollar return on the investment." (Goes on to talk about the value of doing what you love, and yes, the "versatility" of the JD.)

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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby prezidentv8 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:22 am

flcath wrote:Interviewer: "The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics projects that there will be 74,000 new lawyer jobs opening up over the next decade. During that time, American law schools will graduate over 400,000 law graduates, so there's a massive oversupply problem."

Dean: "It's not clear to me there's an oversupply at all."

Interviewer: "Really, because that's like a 4-to-1 ratio."

Dean: "Well only 20% of the legal needs of poor people are being met. They should go [start firms that?] serve those people."

Interviewer: "But you can't do that if you're taking out six-figure debt."

Dean: "You know . . . you can and you can't. We've gotten into a situation where we measure the worth of higher eduction by the dollar return on the investment." (Goes on to talk about the value of doing what you love, and yes, the "versatility" of the JD.)


Wait. Is this real life? (serious question)

rad lulz
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby rad lulz » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:32 am

Poor people are under served because they don't have fucking money to afford legal services.

Is Dean Mitchell a liar or is his head so far up his ass he's begun to enjoy the taste of his own shit.

flcath
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby flcath » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:38 am

prezidentv8 wrote:
flcath wrote:Interviewer: "The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics projects that there will be 74,000 new lawyer jobs opening up over the next decade. During that time, American law schools will graduate over 400,000 law graduates, so there's a massive oversupply problem."

Dean: "It's not clear to me there's an oversupply at all."

Interviewer: "Really, because that's like a 4-to-1 ratio."

Dean: "Well only 20% of the legal needs of poor people are being met. They should go [start firms that?] serve those people."

Interviewer: "But you can't do that if you're taking out six-figure debt."

Dean: "You know . . . you can and you can't. We've gotten into a situation where we measure the worth of higher eduction by the dollar return on the investment." (Goes on to talk about the value of doing what you love, and yes, the "versatility" of the JD.)


Wait. Is this real life? (serious question)

Sadly. Starts at 8:34 on the clip.

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dingbat
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby dingbat » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:30 am

rad lulz wrote:Poor people are under served because they don't have fucking money to afford legal services.

Is Dean Mitchell a liar or is his head so far up his ass he's begun to enjoy the taste of his own shit.

His head is so far up his ass it's protruding out of his neck

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manofjustice
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby manofjustice » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:04 am

prezidentv8 wrote:
flcath wrote:Interviewer: "The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics projects that there will be 74,000 new lawyer jobs opening up over the next decade. During that time, American law schools will graduate over 400,000 law graduates, so there's a massive oversupply problem."

Dean: "It's not clear to me there's an oversupply at all."

Interviewer: "Really, because that's like a 4-to-1 ratio."

Dean: "Well only 20% of the legal needs of poor people are being met. They should go [start firms that?] serve those people."

Interviewer: "But you can't do that if you're taking out six-figure debt."

Dean: "You know . . . you can and you can't. We've gotten into a situation where we measure the worth of higher eduction by the dollar return on the investment." (Goes on to talk about the value of doing what you love, and yes, the "versatility" of the JD.)


Wait. Is this real life? (serious question)


"Go fuck yourself San Diego."

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dingbat
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby dingbat » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:07 am

manofjustice wrote:"Go fuck yourself"

Summed this dean up perfectly

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20130312
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Re: Dean Mitchell's Response to Criticism

Postby 20130312 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:18 am

rad lulz wrote:Poor people are under served because they don't have fucking money to afford legal services.

Is Dean Mitchell a liar or is his head so far up his ass he's begun to enjoy the taste of his own shit.

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