Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

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09042014
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:02 pm

IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:I don't understand how lawyers can use gmail etc without violating client confidentiality.

And I strongly suspect schools using google apps are running afoul of FERPA, but DoE hasn't come out and said it.


I assume that google doesn't have access to paid gmail corporate accounts. Making it safer than sending a file via Fed Ex.

I don't know why you assume that


Because corporate customers aren't retarded. No corporation is going to buy a service that spys on them. It's the reason they are paying for it instead of just using the version with ads.

exitoptions
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby exitoptions » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:02 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Outlook >> gmail for professional emails. I agree message threading is nice, but it's not worth all the other BS gmail doesn't do.


What specifically doesn't Gmail do? I imagine it can't mail merge, but my secretary does that anyway. I think it does everything I do with my email day to day (meeting invites and messages)

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IAFG
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:04 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:I don't understand how lawyers can use gmail etc without violating client confidentiality.

And I strongly suspect schools using google apps are running afoul of FERPA, but DoE hasn't come out and said it.


I assume that google doesn't have access to paid gmail corporate accounts. Making it safer than sending a file via Fed Ex.

I don't know why you assume that


Because corporate customers aren't retarded. No corporation is going to buy a service that spys on them. It's the reason they are paying for it instead of just using the version with ads.

Pick up a TOS. The privacy protections are underwhelming.

09042014
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:05 pm

IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
I assume that google doesn't have access to paid gmail corporate accounts. Making it safer than sending a file via Fed Ex.

I don't know why you assume that


Because corporate customers aren't retarded. No corporation is going to buy a service that spys on them. It's the reason they are paying for it instead of just using the version with ads.

Pick up a TOS. The privacy protections are underwhelming.


No surprise companies don't care about your privacy. But they do care about their own. And TOS doesn't cover that.

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IAFG
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:07 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
No surprise companies don't care about your privacy. But they do care about their own. And TOS doesn't cover that.

DF. the TOS between the corporate user and google.

09042014
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:09 pm

exitoptions wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Outlook >> gmail for professional emails. I agree message threading is nice, but it's not worth all the other BS gmail doesn't do.


What specifically doesn't Gmail do? I imagine it can't mail merge, but my secretary does that anyway. I think it does everything I do with my email day to day (meeting invites and messages)


office integration, and third party software that manage security are ones I use. Firms use those Metadata filters on outlook. Not sure if gmail has it. It better handles copy and paste.

It's got a million tiny features, that you really only appreciate if you need it. But in a business situation, it comes up.

09042014
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:09 pm

IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
No surprise companies don't care about your privacy. But they do care about their own. And TOS doesn't cover that.

DF. the TOS between the corporate user and google.


Have you actually read it?

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atcushman
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby atcushman » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:13 pm

hole lot of this goin on itt

Image

09042014
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:14 pm

atcushman wrote:hole lot of this goin on itt

Image


viewtopic.php?f=10&t=191530

exitoptions
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby exitoptions » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:16 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
exitoptions wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Outlook >> gmail for professional emails. I agree message threading is nice, but it's not worth all the other BS gmail doesn't do.


What specifically doesn't Gmail do? I imagine it can't mail merge, but my secretary does that anyway. I think it does everything I do with my email day to day (meeting invites and messages)


office integration, and third party software that manage security are ones I use. Firms use those Metadata filters on outlook. Not sure if gmail has it. It better handles copy and paste.

It's got a million tiny features, that you really only appreciate if you need it. But in a business situation, it comes up.


The office integration is underwhelming, IMO. Google docs works just as well. We us a DM system from circa 1995, so that may be my firm's problem. Google docs is light years ahead in that department.

09042014
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:17 pm

exitoptions wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
exitoptions wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Outlook >> gmail for professional emails. I agree message threading is nice, but it's not worth all the other BS gmail doesn't do.


What specifically doesn't Gmail do? I imagine it can't mail merge, but my secretary does that anyway. I think it does everything I do with my email day to day (meeting invites and messages)


office integration, and third party software that manage security are ones I use. Firms use those Metadata filters on outlook. Not sure if gmail has it. It better handles copy and paste.

It's got a million tiny features, that you really only appreciate if you need it. But in a business situation, it comes up.


The office integration is underwhelming, IMO. Google docs works just as well. We us a DM system from circa 1995, so that may be my firm's problem. Google docs is light years ahead in that department.


Google docs itself blows. Gmail is a good product. But Google docs is just shit pure shit.

exitoptions
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby exitoptions » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:29 pm

[quote="Desert Fox]Google docs itself blows. Gmail is a good product. But Google docs is just shit pure shit.[/quote]

I have used it for some collaborative projects and it worked way better than the system of "checking out" the doc and working on off-line versions. It's a simple sweet of tools, but not shit. Also, you can get upgraded word processing for a small monthly fee. I can't think of much I do as a lawyer on a regular basis that can't be done in google docs...

09042014
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:30 pm

exitoptions wrote:[


Its fucked up the formatting on literally every document I've ever used.

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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby exitoptions » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:32 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
exitoptions wrote:[


Its fucked up the formatting on literally every document I've ever used.


Hmm. I think the styles options are far more intuitive than Word's options. Nearly every time I draft a pleading I have to send it to a para to go through and fix my styles... (I could just be lazy).

bdubs
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby bdubs » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:12 pm

dingbat wrote:
exitoptions wrote:I have never ever heard of a firm using google apps and gmail although I wish they did. Outlook is completely ridiculous, we're constantly searching for old e-mails and unless you follow a strict filing system it is nearly impossible to find them. Firms are incredibly conservative and it is nearly impossible to get them to switch to more efficient technology. THat makes sense, though, since efficiency is the enemy of the billable hour afterall.

Having a good filing system is a habit you want to get into anyway. Nothing worse than dealing with someone and that person is unable to find an email, or spends significant time (while on the phone) searching for it.
Not only that, an email trail is an easily available CYA


Learn how to search

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/42 ... ays-study/

lawschoolfiasco
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby lawschoolfiasco » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:30 pm

exitoptions wrote:I have never ever heard of a firm using google apps and gmail although I wish they did. Outlook is completely ridiculous, we're constantly searching for old e-mails and unless you follow a strict filing system it is nearly impossible to find them. Firms are incredibly conservative and it is nearly impossible to get them to switch to more efficient technology. THat makes sense, though, since efficiency is the enemy of the billable hour afterall.


I thought a more tech-friendly firm may have adopted Google Apps (e.g., MoFo -- especially given their HQ being located in San Francisco). My firm certainly doesn't use it, but I wish they did. Was hoping to hear of at least one or two firms that do use it.

IMHO, it's not crazy to think Google Apps may be adopted. Google does not search Google Apps email accounts like they do for free Gmail accounts. I'm not an IT expert, but it seems relatively secure. Many government entities have even begun adopting Google Apps.

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dingbat
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby dingbat » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:43 pm

bdubs wrote:
dingbat wrote:
exitoptions wrote:I have never ever heard of a firm using google apps and gmail although I wish they did. Outlook is completely ridiculous, we're constantly searching for old e-mails and unless you follow a strict filing system it is nearly impossible to find them. Firms are incredibly conservative and it is nearly impossible to get them to switch to more efficient technology. THat makes sense, though, since efficiency is the enemy of the billable hour afterall.

Having a good filing system is a habit you want to get into anyway. Nothing worse than dealing with someone and that person is unable to find an email, or spends significant time (while on the phone) searching for it.
Not only that, an email trail is an easily available CYA


Learn how to search

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/42 ... ays-study/

That's a really small sample size. I also wonder what kind of business / complexity was involved. I know from having searched through ex-colleagues' files how much easier it was when their emails were filed vs a big hodgepodge and I don't believe the results of that study to be representative

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dingbat
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby dingbat » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:44 pm

As a simple tool it has its uses but its only real advantage is for collaboration. In just about every other aspect Office blows it out of the water.

Besides, when the rest of the professional world works in Word, that is what you should be using

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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby bhan87 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:13 am

dingbat wrote:As a simple tool it has its uses but its only real advantage is for collaboration. In just about every other aspect Office blows it out of the water.

Besides, when the rest of the professional world works in Word, that is what you should be using


90% of the time those "other aspects" are unnecessary. Google Docs works like a charm for collaboration when writing a document. Even basic version tracking can be a nightmare if more than two people are working on the same document. Once all the text is written, you can just export to Word and clean things up with whatever specialized formatting needs you have.

Whether it's safe to use Google services for storing sensitive client information is really a question of whether you can trust Google with private data. The security that Google can provide for electronic data is light-years ahead of any in-house solution you can concoct due to scalability. I also don't think they'd be stupid enough to infringe on privacy if they're serious about bringing in more corporate customers. Just imagine, one bad story will lead to their services being dead in the water for corporations that handle sensitive data.
Last edited by bhan87 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby laxbrah420 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:16 am

Desert Fox wrote:Outlook >> gmail for professional emails. I agree message threading is nice, but it's not worth all the other BS gmail doesn't do.

outlook on mac does message threading.

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dingbat
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby dingbat » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:21 am

bhan87 wrote:
dingbat wrote:As a simple tool it has its uses but its only real advantage is for collaboration. In just about every other aspect Office blows it out of the water.

Besides, when the rest of the professional world works in Word, that is what you should be using


90% of the time those "other aspects" are unnecessary. Google Docs works like a charm for collaboration when writing a document. Even basic version tracking can be a nightmare if more than two people are working on the same document. Once all the text is written, you can just export to Word and clean things up with whatever specialized formatting needs you have.
If all you want to do is type up a document and print it out, a 1985 computer running Word 2.0 works perfectly fine and "other aspects" are unnecessary.

Sure, 90% of users don't use 90% of what word can do, but if you want to use it for anything beyond the basics, (e.g. formatting, numbering) Word does it better than Google Docs (except online collaboration) and when it comes to spreadsheets or powerpoint presentations, Google Docs shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Excel or PowerPoint (I know, lawyers don't really use them, but clients often do - and getting Office as a bundle just makes more sense). Also, why on earth would I want to write the entire document without formatting, then export and have to clean it up? (this is especially true when dealing with paragraphs and numbering - do you have any idea what a bitch it is to have to clean that up if it isn't done right the first time?)

bhan87 wrote:The security that Google can provide for electronic data is light-years ahead of any in-house solution you can concoct due to scalability.

Then how come there are stories every so often about gmail, yahoo mail, hotmail, etc. getting hacked, but you never hear about a law firm getting hacked? Keep in mind that big names are big targets and outside of the legal world no one has heard of Skadden, MoFo, Bingham, or any other law firm

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presh
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby presh » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:40 am

exitoptions wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
exitoptions wrote:[


Its fucked up the formatting on literally every document I've ever used.


Hmm. I think the styles options are far more intuitive than Word's options. Nearly every time I draft a pleading I have to send it to a para to go through and fix my styles... (I could just be lazy).


Why would you need a para for that? Doesn't your office have macros set up for common pleadings? We use the shit out of Word macros in our office.

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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby bhan87 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:50 am

dingbat wrote:
bhan87 wrote:
dingbat wrote:As a simple tool it has its uses but its only real advantage is for collaboration. In just about every other aspect Office blows it out of the water.

Besides, when the rest of the professional world works in Word, that is what you should be using


90% of the time those "other aspects" are unnecessary. Google Docs works like a charm for collaboration when writing a document. Even basic version tracking can be a nightmare if more than two people are working on the same document. Once all the text is written, you can just export to Word and clean things up with whatever specialized formatting needs you have.
If all you want to do is type up a document and print it out, a 1985 computer running Word 2.0 works perfectly fine and "other aspects" are unnecessary.

Sure, 90% of users don't use 90% of what word can do, but if you want to use it for anything beyond the basics, (e.g. formatting, numbering) Word does it better than Google Docs (except online collaboration) and when it comes to spreadsheets or powerpoint presentations, Google Docs shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Excel or PowerPoint (I know, lawyers don't really use them, but clients often do - and getting Office as a bundle just makes more sense). Also, why on earth would I want to write the entire document without formatting, then export and have to clean it up? (this is especially true when dealing with paragraphs and numbering - do you have any idea what a bitch it is to have to clean that up if it isn't done right the first time?)

bhan87 wrote:The security that Google can provide for electronic data is light-years ahead of any in-house solution you can concoct due to scalability.

Then how come there are stories every so often about gmail, yahoo mail, hotmail, etc. getting hacked, but you never hear about a law firm getting hacked? Keep in mind that big names are big targets and outside of the legal world no one has heard of Skadden, MoFo, Bingham, or any other law firm


Formatting and numbering does get exported when you convert to Word... Docs actually does have a pretty flushed out formatting system for most basic document types. This includes, setting attributable headers, properly formatting footnotes, etc. Most of that stuff will get converted automatically and it takes a few clicks to convert headers to a proper Word-style table of contents post-conversion. It's only at the fringes with power features where it falls short (i.e. creating a table of references is still lacking). And even then, most of those features are best utilized at the end of the project. For instance, why you would bother updating a table of references before a near complete draft is beyond me when entire sections of briefs can get axed easily.

Excel / Powerpoint is a different story and I make no attempt to defend the Google offerings. But seeing as how we're talking about attorneys, I'm guessing a vast majority of their time will be editing documents that will be looked at and edited by multiple attorneys.

Also, are you referring Gmail personal accounts being hacked or the actual Gmail servers being hacked? The two are extremely different. Personal accounts are hacked all the time through rudimentary means (password bombs, type-stroke logging, etc.). I don't recall ever reading a story that someone was able to hack into a Gmail server directly, which is what you would be referring to because I'm pretty sure corporations that worry about password theft would have stringent password requirements anyway making the former a moot point.

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dingbat
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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby dingbat » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:00 am

I'm still sticking with the question: if you create it in Google Doc, but have to convert to Word to clean it up, why not just create it in word the first time? Why bother having two sets of software that effectively do the same thing?
Not only that, if you ever need to collaborate with in-house attorneys, you could be sending documents back and forth between each other hundreds of times. If everyone else works in Word, you would have to convert it to Google Docs, work on it, then convert it back to Word, each and every time. I don't see the logic in that.
Again, the only advantage google docs has is in online collaboration, which is great, but there are a lot of disadvantages that you take on in doing so. I don't see the point.

As for the hacking thing, I don't know a lot about cybersecurity, I just know that mass hacking (e.g. obtaining lists of passwords for a plethora of users) happens quite frequently to big firms, so your argument that scaling makes for better security because it's bigger doesn't make sense. Besides, most law firms pay good money to have top-notch security, so I don't see how it'd be any worse

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Re: Which biglaw firms, if any, use Google Apps?

Postby TTRansfer » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:37 am

exitoptions wrote:[


Working on the offline edition of a checked out document isn't that bad at all. The only thing that's a pain in the ass is when people forget to check shit in and you have to email someone in the firm without sounding annoyed that they were too lazy to click "return" when prompted.

That is brutally annoying.




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