V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

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MBB or V10?

MBB
8
57%
V10
6
43%
 
Total votes: 14

Anonymous User
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V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:42 pm

My friend is facing this choice and he has asked for my help with choosing.

He's not much of a forum person and I know there are people around here who are knowledgeable about these two tracks so please give me your opinions and I'll show him this thread. Please share your source of knowledge as you do.

His end goal coming out of either of these places is to have a stable corporate job (40-50hrs/wk) so that he can focus on family. He also wants the flexibility to move countries down the road.

IMO, I'm leaning towards him taking MBB because of the greater exit opportunities available to him. Both a V10 and MBB should give him solid exit opps into industry, however, he will come out of the V10 only being able to go into the legal department of a US company (as I understand it). On the other hand, a few years in consulting + the MBB brand will allow him to come out with a more general set of business skills that are marketable to corporations around the world.

The only upside for law is that is that the V10 is offering more $. I think in the long term though, given what he's shooting for, MBB is TCR. Thoughts?

Anonymous User
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:29 pm

People are going to give you answers but, truthfully, the information you gave is not enough to distinguish the two. The exit options from each result in about the same hours/pay from a given level. For instance, a mid-level exiting in-house ends up in a similar position as a case-leader from MBB going to a company (most likely VP/Director of marketing/strategy depending on the company setup) and both usually pay like $110-$200k depending on the major company. Likewise, ability to travel overseas will depend a lot on the country and/or language skills. If you have the language skills (or want to be in London) it isn't all that difficult to go overseas at some biglaw firms and the same holds for MBB.

Anonymous User
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:16 pm

OP Here.

Anonymous User wrote:People are going to give you answers but, truthfully, the information you gave is not enough to distinguish the two. The exit options from each result in about the same hours/pay from a given level. For instance, a mid-level exiting in-house ends up in a similar position as a case-leader from MBB going to a company (most likely VP/Director of marketing/strategy depending on the company setup) and both usually pay like $110-$200k depending on the major company. Likewise, ability to travel overseas will depend a lot on the country and/or language skills. If you have the language skills (or want to be in London) it isn't all that difficult to go overseas at some biglaw firms and the same holds for MBB.


Thanks for the response. Yep London would be the ideal destination. What happens to a mid year law associate who finds themselves in London ready to exit? Can they go in-house in London?

Regarding MBB exits, it was my understanding that with MBB you can go to different parts of a company such as strategy/corp development/operations (the skills required here are applicable in any country) whereas with law you usually go to the legal department, and not only that, but because you practice US law it could only be a company based in the US. In my experience, US companies with operations overseas usually hire domestic lawyers for their in-house counsel.

Also, I forgot to add in the opening post that my friend doesn't have any student loans.

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thesealocust
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby thesealocust » Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:13 pm

Life is not ordinal. One is a business job and one is a law job. Your friend should take the law job if your friend wants a law job and the business job if your friend wants a business job. Even this is to say nothing of the differences between various practice areas, the V10 firms, etc.

Undoubtedly the biggest difference between these jobs will boil down to which a person thinks they would prefer. You can't just count dollars and titles and come to a conclusion. Plus it's absurd to say that a V10 job would "limit" you to a company's legal department like that's some kind of revelation... I mean, no shit Sherlock. MDs also "limit" you to the healthcare or research field. Joining the army "limits" you to army jobs for a while. Breaking news: making choices involves choosing. More at 11.

Anyway, there ARE a lot of executives who have JDs and people who become high level corporate officials after starting at law firms, but it's not common and clearly not the best first set of steps to take if you know it's your goal. Your friend wouldn't need to worry that choosing a legal job would foreclose the possibility of working on the business side - every year some number of people, largely due to self selection, move from law firms to business end jobs. Starting from a V10 will make it especially possible were it to be desired relative to other firms, especially form a transactional as opposed to litigation practice.

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bk1
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby bk1 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:18 pm

thesealocust wrote:Breaking news: making choices involves choosing. More at 11.

:lol:

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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:39 pm

OP Here.

thesealocust wrote:Life is not ordinal. One is a business job and one is a law job. Your friend should take the law job if your friend wants a law job and the business job if your friend wants a business job. Even this is to say nothing of the differences between various practice areas, the V10 firms, etc.

Undoubtedly the biggest difference between these jobs will boil down to which a person thinks they would prefer. You can't just count dollars and titles and come to a conclusion. Plus it's absurd to say that a V10 job would "limit" you to a company's legal department like that's some kind of revelation... I mean, no shit Sherlock. MDs also "limit" you to the healthcare or research field. Joining the army "limits" you to army jobs for a while. Breaking news: making choices involves choosing. More at 11.

Anyway, there ARE a lot of executives who have JDs and people who become high level corporate officials after starting at law firms, but it's not common and clearly not the best first set of steps to take if you know it's your goal. Your friend wouldn't need to worry that choosing a legal job would foreclose the possibility of working on the business side - every year some number of people, largely due to self selection, move from law firms to business end jobs. Starting from a V10 will make it especially possible were it to be desired relative to other firms, especially form a transactional as opposed to litigation practice.


1) Thanks for the input, you raise good points.
2) Take it easy on the unprovoked aggression. Just trying to find some different perspectives here bro.
3) The limiting point is quite important because it likely carries geographic consequences.

Anonymous User
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP Here.

Anonymous User wrote:People are going to give you answers but, truthfully, the information you gave is not enough to distinguish the two. The exit options from each result in about the same hours/pay from a given level. For instance, a mid-level exiting in-house ends up in a similar position as a case-leader from MBB going to a company (most likely VP/Director of marketing/strategy depending on the company setup) and both usually pay like $110-$200k depending on the major company. Likewise, ability to travel overseas will depend a lot on the country and/or language skills. If you have the language skills (or want to be in London) it isn't all that difficult to go overseas at some biglaw firms and the same holds for MBB.


Thanks for the response. Yep London would be the ideal destination. What happens to a mid year law associate who finds themselves in London ready to exit? Can they go in-house in London?

Regarding MBB exits, it was my understanding that with MBB you can go to different parts of a company such as strategy/corp development/operations (the skills required here are applicable in any country) whereas with law you usually go to the legal department, and not only that, but because you practice US law it could only be a company based in the US. In my experience, US companies with operations overseas usually hire domestic lawyers for their in-house counsel.

Also, I forgot to add in the opening post that my friend doesn't have any student loans.


I was at a F500 company and every single former MBB person was in some form of strategy/marketing position. TBH, at a F500 company at the VP/Director level I am not sure why someone would really put a giant amount of value on being in different parts of the company beyond strategy/marketing/corp development (which are all basically similar groups at most companies). [One exception may be if they were in financial services or some highly regulated industry.. Idk much about those] I also dont get what you are going for with distinguishing btn US-based companies and foreign based company hiring. What you said is just as true of management. The vast majority of major European companies hire mainly European middle managers. Sure, they might have American C-level people.

What people need to realize is that neither one of these choices open up all doors worldwide forever. There are a ton of variables and exceptions to every rule. As a rule however, everything you have brought up is bad criteria for choosing between V10 and MBB. It would be better to think about type of work they want to do. What type of work they would do long term. Etc.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:01 pm

It always amazes me that people who are smart enough to get these kinds of jobs (and who have presumably put in years and years of effort to get them) come to the Internet for career advice when they can't make basic decisions about what general field they want to spend a substantial part of their life in.

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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby laxbrah420 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:16 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:It always amazes me that people who are smart enough to get these kinds of jobs (and who have presumably put in years and years of effort to get them) come to the Internet for career advice when they can't make basic decisions about what general field they want to spend a substantial part of their life in.

They come here for different perspectives homeboy. I hope that helps resolve your disrespect. If so, please vote laxbrah420 as most helpful tlser on NYE when the poll comes out

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:26 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:It always amazes me that people who are smart enough to get these kinds of jobs (and who have presumably put in years and years of effort to get them) come to the Internet for career advice when they can't make basic decisions about what general field they want to spend a substantial part of their life in.

They come here for different perspectives homeboy. I hope that helps resolve your disrespect. If so, please vote laxbrah420 as most helpful tlser on NYE when the poll comes out


Couple of points:

1) I like your schtick.
2) You can read about different perspectives all over the Internet and on this site using the search function. You don't need to make a new thread. Also, choosing between a career in business and a career in law is something your 3rd-grade guidance counselor talks to you about and something that most people have already made up their minds about when they're still in college. I think it's safe to say that every reasonably intelligent person knows the basic differences between the two career fields.

delusional
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby delusional » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:49 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:It always amazes me that people who are smart enough to get these kinds of jobs (and who have presumably put in years and years of effort to get them) come to the Internet for career advice when they can't make basic decisions about what general field they want to spend a substantial part of their life in.
"The Internet" is not a Magic 8 Ball. People come to a gathering of others who have undertaken similar effort and perhaps have faced similar choices. That gathering happens to be an online gathering. It would be silly to post it on Reddit, I'll grant you.

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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The only upside for law is that is that the V10 is offering more $. I think in the long term though, given what he's shooting for, MBB is TCR. Thoughts?


Are you sure the V10 is actually offering more? Standard MBB packages are roughly the same or arguably slightly better than "market" for law firms.

Anonymous User
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:50 pm

Does your friend know what type of industry and function he is interested in in consulting? The average tenure at MBB is pretty short (maybe 2 years, seems like possibly less). That means that he would need to settle into something pretty quickly to figure out where he wants to go. There can be great options if you know what you want to do though.

Law is a bit more predictable and you're more likely to be able to stick around for 4-5 years with pretty stable and rapid income increases. If corporate law is your friend's focus, then he will have in house exit options that pay decently and have reasonable hours. They will certainly be narrower in focus than the business roles but could be just as rewarding.

Bottom line is that you can't keep all doors open all the time, eventually you have to choose a career path. They all come with a collection of risks and rewards. MBB will keep more doors open but for a potentially very short period of time.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gunner3
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby gunner3 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:50 pm

This really just comes down to what your friend wants. I don't think in any way, however, that if your friend chooses V10 then they will be stuck with a law job in a corporation if they lateral in. I know plenty of people in PE/HF/Corporate executives who were lawyers. Does your friend have a business background?

gunner3
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby gunner3 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:53 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The only upside for law is that is that the V10 is offering more $. I think in the long term though, given what he's shooting for, MBB is TCR. Thoughts?


Are you sure the V10 is actually offering more? Standard MBB packages are roughly the same or arguably slightly better than "market" for law firms.


This isn't even close to being true. A V10 starts out at about 160K, MBB for undergrads starts at 75-80K and for grads at about 110K.

bdubs
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby bdubs » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:10 pm

gunner3 wrote:
imchuckbass58 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The only upside for law is that is that the V10 is offering more $. I think in the long term though, given what he's shooting for, MBB is TCR. Thoughts?


Are you sure the V10 is actually offering more? Standard MBB packages are roughly the same or arguably slightly better than "market" for law firms.


This isn't even close to being true. A V10 starts out at about 160K, MBB for undergrads starts at 75-80K and for grads at about 110K.


There are some inconsistencies here in that all of the bonuses are "up to XX" but then the maximum bonus is included in the total compensation calculation. Overall though chuckbass is right for MBA grads (which I assume is the level this guy's friend would enter at).

http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... -post-mba/

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EijiMiyake
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby EijiMiyake » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:11 pm

Actually it nets out pretty close because of bigger signing and performance bonuses. Total comp is probably within 10k of each other.

imchuckbass58
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:57 pm

gunner3 wrote:
imchuckbass58 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The only upside for law is that is that the V10 is offering more $. I think in the long term though, given what he's shooting for, MBB is TCR. Thoughts?


Are you sure the V10 is actually offering more? Standard MBB packages are roughly the same or arguably slightly better than "market" for law firms.


This isn't even close to being true. A V10 starts out at about 160K, MBB for undergrads starts at 75-80K and for grads at about 110K.


From first-hand experience, the package for a post-MBA or post-JD is:

$140k base
$25k signing
Up to $40k performance bonus (median probably somewhere around $20k for an average performer in an average year)
5% of base + bonus in retirement contribution (i.e., minimum $7k, maximum $9k)

If you exclude signing bonuses (even though that arguably is part of first-year comp), you're looking at $147k minimum, $200k maximum, with median somewhere around $165k. With signing bonus, it's $172k minimum, $225k maximum, median around $190k. Raises are also faster (though average tenure tends to be shorter).

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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:07 pm

To throw in my two cents, I actually made this decision and chose MBB. But it's really a personal choice: do you want to do law or business. You can also think about whether you want to do deal-related work or operational work.

If you'd rather do business, particularly the management / operational side, I think it's pretty clear consulting is better. Yes, I'm sure we can all name lawyers who became CEOs, execs, etc., but I've been told by multiple lawyers at V10s that it's extremely hard to land a business role straight out of a firm. You'll come in as in-house counsel and then find a way to work your way into a business role after proving yourself for several years. Even then, it's not clear you have an advantage over people who have been doing management jobs the entire time.

I think it's more of a toss-up if you want to do deal work. Lawyers can have valuable skills that are translatable to IB, PE or corp. dev. roles. But even then I don't think it's clear-cut - you can get different but arguably equally valuable experience through consulting (i.e., corp. dev. strategy, strategic due diligence, post-merger integration work).

If you want to practice law, then it's a no-brainer.

Anonymous User
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:45 am

OP Here.

Thanks for the responses guys, I think you fleshed out the major issues surrounding this decision and brought in some new points that my friend and I hadn't considered.

Cheers!

igo2northwestern
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Re: V10 vs. MBB - Which would you choose?

Postby igo2northwestern » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:43 am

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:choosing between a career in business and a career in law is something your 3rd-grade guidance counselor talks to you about and something that most people have already made up their minds about when they're still in college. I think it's safe to say that every reasonably intelligent person knows the basic differences between the two career fields.

:roll:




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