2L SA and fall grades

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

2L SA and fall grades

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:26 pm

Paranoid 2L here. Anecdotally, does anyone here know of an SA (large NY firm) w/drawing a summer offer based on fall grades? I'm starting to freak out about finals and wonder if anyone can assuage my fears. Being a transfer student I may already be on thin ice b/c I have no idea how my grades will stand up to my peers. I know there's nothing I can do about it now except do great on my exams, but would still like to hear some input.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:34 pm

It depends on the firm. Some firms, like Cahill, don't give a shit. But some V10 firms do care with varying levels.

Agent
Posts: 340
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:03 pm

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby Agent » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:11 pm


Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:12 pm

I'm at a biglaw in NYC and they absolutely did not care that I went from all A's to mostly A's and a couple B/B+. I lost all of my drive after I got my offer, and it didn't matter.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Paranoid 2L here. Anecdotally, does anyone here know of an SA (large NY firm) w/drawing a summer offer based on fall grades? I'm starting to freak out about finals and wonder if anyone can assuage my fears. Being a transfer student I may already be on thin ice b/c I have no idea how my grades will stand up to my peers. I know there's nothing I can do about it now except do great on my exams, but would still like to hear some input.


Do not be paranoid... but work hard. ITE anything can happen, so you always want good grades to fall back upon if things do not work out the way you wanted. I am shocked at the number of people who seem not to care about grades post 1L, when 1) it is easier to get good GPA 2L+3L, and 2) Latham, Winston, Dewey, Paul Hastings(?) have screwed plenty of people in last few years.

imchuckbass58
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:56 pm

I have literally never heard of a firm withdrawing an SA offer based on fall grades. I've heard of people getting no-offered after SAs and implying it might have been partially due to grades (no idea how they'd know), but even then you're talking about a massive drop. Not going from A- to Bs and B+s - more like getting Cs and B-s.

You will be fine unless you totally shit the bed. Even then, you may still be fine.

MinEMorris
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:26 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby MinEMorris » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:41 pm

From skimming similar threads, it sounds like only GDC (gibson dunn) and MTO (munger tolles) have a reputation for putting significant weight on grade drops-- feel free to correct me or add to this list if anyone knows better. Also, I think most firms don't request your grades until after your summer, when they're putting everything together to make their decision.

Like others have said, though, letting your grades drop is a risky decision regardless of how heavily firms weight it. You may spill your coffee on a partner and be looking for a job at the end of the summer regardless of how they weight grades, in which case having good grades would be very helpful. Also, people involved in recruiting on the board have said that even if their firms don't put heavy weight on grades, it's always an easy tiebreaker when you've got two close candidates and only want one.
Last edited by MinEMorris on Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

imchuckbass58
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Paranoid 2L here. Anecdotally, does anyone here know of an SA (large NY firm) w/drawing a summer offer based on fall grades? I'm starting to freak out about finals and wonder if anyone can assuage my fears. Being a transfer student I may already be on thin ice b/c I have no idea how my grades will stand up to my peers. I know there's nothing I can do about it now except do great on my exams, but would still like to hear some input.


I'd also add you're probably being paranoid. Compared to 1L, everyone 2L feels like they're ridiculously underprepared then ends up doing much better than they expected (remember, the curve bumps up, and many people work significantly less).

User avatar
somewhatwayward
Posts: 1446
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:10 pm

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:53 pm

Generally firms don't no-offer based on grades. My V5 had a 100% offer rate this year, and there is no way that not a single person had a substantial drop. I bet there were a bunch of substantial drops.

However, the situation I have sometimes heard this can happen in is with a transfer. The context I am thinking of is when a transfer is hired but then doesn't make the grade cut off at the new school that the firm would look for (like you are top 1% at your T25, transfer to CLS, get an offer from Cravath, and then land at median at CLS; even then, though, I don't think that happens much - grades often seem to be a pretext to no offer someone for something else). What caliber of firm are we talking about here?

Cram your ass off between now and the final, and if this semester doesn't go well, structure next semester so that you can bring your grades up a little. Take seminars with easier curves or do independent research and writing for a grade or a clinic or whatever is known to be easy to get A/A-s in at your school.

A couple of the experienced attorneys (well, experienced relative to more TLSers, anyway) have mentioned that grades can matter later on down the line when you are lateraling, so I think it is worth maintaining them as a 2L and 3L although I know most people disagree with me. I get that you are where you are now, but for next semester, I would recommend stepping on the gas. Try to get some type of honors on your resume from your new school.

User avatar
ph14
Posts: 3225
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby ph14 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:55 pm

MinEMorris wrote:From skimming similar threads, it sounds like only GDC (gibson dunn) and MTO (munger tolles) have a reputation for putting significant weight on grade drops-- feel free to correct me or add to this list if anyone knows better. Also, I think most firms don't request your grades until after your summer, when they're putting everything together to make their decision.

Like others have said, though, letting your grades drop is a risky decision regardless of how heavily firms weight it. You may spill your coffee on a partner and be looking for a job at the end of the summer regardless of how they weight grades, in which case having good grades would be very helpful. Also, people involved in recruiting on the board have said that even if their firms don't put heavy weight on grades, it's always an easy tiebreaker when you've got two close candidates and only want one.

I feel your pain, though, OP. My performance hasn't been up to par this semester and I'm also worried about how it might reflect on me.


I'm not sure that their reputation accurately reflects reality, though, given the high offer rates at both firms (over 90% at each). Does anyone have more concrete evidence than this?

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby 09042014 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:55 pm

MinEMorris wrote:From skimming similar threads, it sounds like only GDC (gibson dunn) and MTO (munger tolles) have a reputation for putting significant weight on grade drops-- feel free to correct me or add to this list if anyone knows better. Also, I think most firms don't request your grades until after your summer, when they're putting everything together to make their decision.

Like others have said, though, letting your grades drop is a risky decision regardless of how heavily firms weight it. You may spill your coffee on a partner and be looking for a job at the end of the summer regardless of how they weight grades, in which case having good grades would be very helpful. Also, people involved in recruiting on the board have said that even if their firms don't put heavy weight on grades, it's always an easy tiebreaker when you've got two close candidates and only want one.

I feel your pain, though, OP. My performance hasn't been up to par this semester and I'm also worried about how it might reflect on me.


Someone told me that GDC didn't even ask for a transcript bro.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:22 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
MinEMorris wrote:From skimming similar threads, it sounds like only GDC (gibson dunn) and MTO (munger tolles) have a reputation for putting significant weight on grade drops-- feel free to correct me or add to this list if anyone knows better. Also, I think most firms don't request your grades until after your summer, when they're putting everything together to make their decision.

Like others have said, though, letting your grades drop is a risky decision regardless of how heavily firms weight it. You may spill your coffee on a partner and be looking for a job at the end of the summer regardless of how they weight grades, in which case having good grades would be very helpful. Also, people involved in recruiting on the board have said that even if their firms don't put heavy weight on grades, it's always an easy tiebreaker when you've got two close candidates and only want one.

I feel your pain, though, OP. My performance hasn't been up to par this semester and I'm also worried about how it might reflect on me.


Someone told me that GDC didn't even ask for a transcript bro.


GDC makes you sign something that allows them to request a transcript. Not sure if they ever actually asked for it.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MinEMorris
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:26 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby MinEMorris » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:24 pm

Yeah, my research was quite shallow so I'm happy to stand corrected. I googled it and although there are other threads where people cite GDC as the prime example of a firm that cares about grades, there are plenty of posts of people saying that they can personally confirm that GDC does not no-offer based on grades. I saw MTO brought up in one thread and someone supported the assertion, but I couldn't tell if they were trolling or being serious.

And yeah, it's pretty hard to find a firm that doesn't have a 90% offer rate, so the grade thing must primarily be a pretext issue during the economic downturn.

shock259
Posts: 1737
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:30 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby shock259 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:38 pm

somewhatwayward wrote: However, the situation I have sometimes heard this can happen in is with a transfer. The context I am thinking of is when a transfer is hired but then doesn't make the grade cut off at the new school that the firm would look for (like you are top 1% at your T25, transfer to CLS, get an offer from Cravath, and then land at median at CLS; even then, though, I don't think that happens much - grades often seem to be a pretext to no offer someone for something else). What caliber of firm are we talking about here?


Is this really a thing? I just assumed that median would be fine for a CLS transfer regardless of the firm they ended up at. I don't know how firms can even pretend to predict that a T1 top 5% person will be at least X% CLS median person. Eeek.

I'm going to a V50 that usually hires a very low % of honors students (so presumably mostly median CLS students). As a transfer, hopefully this means I can be at the median and be fine. ... right?!

Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:12 pm

In speaking with people it generally seems that you will not be no offered for poor grades alone (obviously there is a line where they are just too terrible). Usually its poor grades + fit or work product issue.

User avatar
ExBiglawAssociate
Posts: 2092
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:06 pm

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:13 pm

Your work product is by far the most important factor in your getting an offer.

User avatar
Renne Walker
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:12 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby Renne Walker » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:32 pm

It is well recognized that grade slippage will not banish you and LS should only be two years, that said, should the day come when you want to lateral (perhaps you never want to see snow, hail a cab or ride a subway) maintaining stellar grades will/might prove invaluable. . . just saying.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:48 am

is it usually only the v10 firms that are selective or does this also apply to those closer to the bottom 100?

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby 09042014 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:is it usually only the v10 firms that are selective or does this also apply to those closer to the bottom 100?


Its the opposite. Most V10 don't no offer people, or no offer very very few.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:36 am

so does that mean that a v100 is more likely than a v10 to no-offer for grades? (or just a flat no offer in general)

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18422
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby bk1 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:so does that mean that a v100 is more likely than a v10 to no-offer for grades? (or just a flat no offer in general)

Lower ranked Vault firms are more likely to no offer in general. Whether they are more likely to do so due to grades I do not know.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:08 pm

Yeah, I just came to this thread to ask about this. My NY lower V100 has a relatively large class size and a 100% offer rate historically, but if anyone here has summered/works at NY lower V100s, I'd be interested to hear if/when you were asked for grades, whether it affected your offer, etc.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273366
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:23 pm

also curious as to timing?

anon168
Posts: 920
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby anon168 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:06 pm

I can't think of any firm that would renege on an offer simply because your 2L/3L grades dipped, even dramatically.

They might use your poor grades as an excuse to pull the offer for reasons unrelated to grades (e.g. over-subscribed incoming class, etc.), but not simply because your grades dropped.

Even firms like W&C, MTO, KVN or Bartlit Beck don't have a track record of doing something like that, but then again, historically those firms attract and hire SA that are gunners, and who actually want to maintain their grades for other reasons (e.g. clerkships) than simply maintaining a job offer.

arizonairish
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:21 am

Re: 2L SA and fall grades

Postby arizonairish » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:33 pm

I have what may be a really dumb question.

But I noticed this is labeled "Fall Grades." My understanding is that they will ask for a transcript once both Spring and Fall grades are in together, or request a fall grade ahead of time?




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.