Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

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Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:06 pm

Curious what the current perspective is on these prospects. A sampling of ABA 2011 stats would seem to indicate that not many are getting law firm jobs with firms of more than 10 attorneys.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby thesealocust » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:42 pm

The prospects are abysmal.

Have you considered hustling or networking?

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby Gorki » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:21 pm

Not to be a doom and gloom, but excepting a few people who are going into business with a family member, its pretty bad. The "success" stories are people I know working regulatory/legal compliance and other borderline-"law" work. Even these folks are working alongside BAs w/few years of work experience, so while its a paycheck its an ego-check too.

There are people applying to work for legal aide organizations full time absolutely free... These are not bottom of the bucket grads from TTTTs by any means.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:26 pm

Well if the government is cutting or having limited hiring then that does not leave a whole lot for a large number of T2 soon to be graduates.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Dean Mitchell at Case Western would beg to differ.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:40 am

I believe it is generally correct that most T2 students outside the top 10% are scrambling for a relatively small number of good firm jobs outside of biglaw. After that, clerkships and the few good public jobs. A few corporate positions here and there are worthwhile as well. Unfortunately, there will be many without legal positions and many more with legal positions they did not want but had to settle for to get some legal experience (shit law and doc review). I cannot even begin to guess about TTT and TTTT.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby delusional » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:51 am

I don't think that no one will get a job or that the available jobs are all abysmal, but it does depend on what you're looking for along with a lot of outside factors. I know someone who graduated a decent school in an area with lots of them, and makes a living somewhere in low six figures doing closings, traffic tickets, divorces, etc. TLS would call it shitlaw, but it's not the low end of shitlaw in any case.
The thing is, lots of things have to be right for it to work. This guy had another business he was involved with until he could get his practice rolling, and he also had family money, and he also lives in a town that is in a long period of revitalization, which means lots of real estate transactions, business setup, etc.
Another guy I know did a similar thing, but he had the advantage of being able to work for his brother in small town legal work for a few years, to learn the ropes. Once he did that, he had the skills to set up his own place a few towns over.
The point is, there are careers in law that don't involve the kind of hustling that areyouinsane describes, but they require certain circumstances, certain types of thinking, and a certain amount of luck.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby 2LsAPlenty » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:17 am

I think the point was the prospects were abysmal, not the jobs themselves. I would tend to agree that the prospects are daunting. Can't tell you how many times I have heard from those lucky enough to have something lined up after graduation that they are "grateful" or "thankful" to have a decent legal job.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby SHANbangs » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:43 pm

What's wrong with compliance jobs? They sound pretty good to me. Much better than shit law.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby 20160810 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:53 pm

All depends on which T2 and what grades we're talking.

IMO, top-20% from Santa Clara or Loyola could still get you an OK firm job with a little hustle. Top-50% less so.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby Void » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:00 pm

3L at a T2 here. Some of you have it right, some of you (Gorki) are being a little dramatic. The top kids at my school end up at the local "mid-law" firms, starting at around $120k. Then there are a number of smaller firms with 10-20 attorneys who recruit out of the remaining folks. Some end up at state govt, some at random nonprofits, some at tiny firms. Biglaw is basically out of the question, but if you're at a T2 you already know this. Lots of people from my school end up with real jobs as lawyers- it just takes a lot longer to get hired and we don't make as much money. That ends up not being a huge deal anyway, thanks to resident tuition at a state school and a low CoL...

Still- would I recommend going to my school to a 0L? Nope. I'd much rather be somewhere where the prospect of unemployment wasn't quite as realistic.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby 20160810 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:08 pm

Void wrote:3L at a T2 here. Some of you have it right, some of you (Gorki) are being a little dramatic. The top kids at my school end up at the local "mid-law" firms, starting at around $120k. Then there are a number of smaller firms with 10-20 attorneys who recruit out of the remaining folks. Some end up at state govt, some at random nonprofits, some at tiny firms. Biglaw is basically out of the question, but if you're at a T2 you already know this. Lots of people from my school end up with real jobs as lawyers- it just takes a lot longer to get hired and we don't make as much money. That ends up not being a huge deal anyway, thanks to resident tuition at a state school and a low CoL...

Still- would I recommend going to my school to a 0L? Nope. I'd much rather be somewhere where the prospect of unemployment wasn't quite as realistic.

My school was T25 and this describes things pretty accurately for us.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby Void » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:14 pm

SBL wrote:
Void wrote:3L at a T2 here. Some of you have it right, some of you (Gorki) are being a little dramatic. The top kids at my school end up at the local "mid-law" firms, starting at around $120k. Then there are a number of smaller firms with 10-20 attorneys who recruit out of the remaining folks. Some end up at state govt, some at random nonprofits, some at tiny firms. Biglaw is basically out of the question, but if you're at a T2 you already know this. Lots of people from my school end up with real jobs as lawyers- it just takes a lot longer to get hired and we don't make as much money. That ends up not being a huge deal anyway, thanks to resident tuition at a state school and a low CoL...

Still- would I recommend going to my school to a 0L? Nope. I'd much rather be somewhere where the prospect of unemployment wasn't quite as realistic.

My school was T25 and this describes things pretty accurately for us.


Cool- we're in similar boats. Maybe you shouldn't have tried so hard on the LSAT!

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby 20160810 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:27 pm

Void wrote:
SBL wrote:
Void wrote:3L at a T2 here. Some of you have it right, some of you (Gorki) are being a little dramatic. The top kids at my school end up at the local "mid-law" firms, starting at around $120k. Then there are a number of smaller firms with 10-20 attorneys who recruit out of the remaining folks. Some end up at state govt, some at random nonprofits, some at tiny firms. Biglaw is basically out of the question, but if you're at a T2 you already know this. Lots of people from my school end up with real jobs as lawyers- it just takes a lot longer to get hired and we don't make as much money. That ends up not being a huge deal anyway, thanks to resident tuition at a state school and a low CoL...

Still- would I recommend going to my school to a 0L? Nope. I'd much rather be somewhere where the prospect of unemployment wasn't quite as realistic.

My school was T25 and this describes things pretty accurately for us.


Cool- we're in similar boats. Maybe you shouldn't have tried so hard on the LSAT!

My LSAT score was a travesty bro

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby spleenworship » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:09 pm

Void wrote:3L at a T2 here. Some of you have it right, some of you (Gorki) are being a little dramatic. The top kids at my school end up at the local "mid-law" firms, starting at around $120k. Then there are a number of smaller firms with 10-20 attorneys who recruit out of the remaining folks. Some end up at state govt, some at random nonprofits, some at tiny firms. Biglaw is basically out of the question, but if you're at a T2 you already know this. Lots of people from my school end up with real jobs as lawyers- it just takes a lot longer to get hired and we don't make as much money. That ends up not being a huge deal anyway, thanks to resident tuition at a state school and a low CoL...

Still- would I recommend going to my school to a 0L? Nope. I'd much rather be somewhere where the prospect of unemployment wasn't quite as realistic.


2L at a T2. This sounds exactly right to me from what I have seen two sets of 3Ls going through.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby 2LsAPlenty » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:04 pm

spleenworship wrote:
Void wrote:3L at a T2 here. Some of you have it right, some of you (Gorki) are being a little dramatic. The top kids at my school end up at the local "mid-law" firms, starting at around $120k. Then there are a number of smaller firms with 10-20 attorneys who recruit out of the remaining folks. Some end up at state govt, some at random nonprofits, some at tiny firms. Biglaw is basically out of the question, but if you're at a T2 you already know this. Lots of people from my school end up with real jobs as lawyers- it just takes a lot longer to get hired and we don't make as much money. That ends up not being a huge deal anyway, thanks to resident tuition at a state school and a low CoL...

Still- would I recommend going to my school to a 0L? Nope. I'd much rather be somewhere where the prospect of unemployment wasn't quite as realistic.


2L at a T2. This sounds exactly right to me from what I have seen two sets of 3Ls going through.


Many "mid-law" in the midwest start anywhere from $ 90-125,000. Smaller firms with good practices pay from $ 50-80,000. Goes down from their. Way too many candidates for all of these jobs. Some on law review have nothing lined up yet.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby Void » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:18 pm

A bunch of people on Law Review here don't have anything lined up yet either. That's because small firms don't hire like big firms. Imagine running a fairly small law firm, and thinking to yourself "hmmm... I think I want to hire an entry-level attorney, but I want to extend him/her an offer months before s/he could start here, and start paying him/her before s/he passes the bar."

This is why I said it takes a lot longer for T2 grads to find work. We won't have fancy job offers thrust into our faces and be guaranteed a paycheck the second we graduate, but most of us (at my school at least) will eventually get jobs as lawyers, if we still want them. BTW, $50-$80k sounds freaking great to me. I'd happily accept a job paying far less than that. You have to start somewhere, man.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby Void » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:20 pm

SBL wrote:
Void wrote:
SBL wrote:
Void wrote:3L at a T2 here. Some of you have it right, some of you (Gorki) are being a little dramatic. The top kids at my school end up at the local "mid-law" firms, starting at around $120k. Then there are a number of smaller firms with 10-20 attorneys who recruit out of the remaining folks. Some end up at state govt, some at random nonprofits, some at tiny firms. Biglaw is basically out of the question, but if you're at a T2 you already know this. Lots of people from my school end up with real jobs as lawyers- it just takes a lot longer to get hired and we don't make as much money. That ends up not being a huge deal anyway, thanks to resident tuition at a state school and a low CoL...

Still- would I recommend going to my school to a 0L? Nope. I'd much rather be somewhere where the prospect of unemployment wasn't quite as realistic.

My school was T25 and this describes things pretty accurately for us.


Cool- we're in similar boats. Maybe you shouldn't have tried so hard on the LSAT!

My LSAT score was a travesty bro


Obviously a lesser travesty than mine! Signed, T60ish

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby crazycanuck » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:18 am

Void wrote:A bunch of people on Law Review here don't have anything lined up yet either. That's because small firms don't hire like big firms. Imagine running a fairly small law firm, and thinking to yourself "hmmm... I think I want to hire an entry-level attorney, but I want to extend him/her an offer months before s/he could start here, and start paying him/her before s/he passes the bar."

This is why I said it takes a lot longer for T2 grads to find work. We won't have fancy job offers thrust into our faces and be guaranteed a paycheck the second we graduate, but most of us (at my school at least) will eventually get jobs as lawyers, if we still want them. BTW, $50-$80k sounds freaking great to me. I'd happily accept a job paying far less than that. You have to start somewhere, man.


Dean Mitchell? is that you?

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby 2LsAPlenty » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:19 am

It certainly sounds like Dean Mitchell - kind of sugar coated and makes you feel good. :lol:

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby studebaker07 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:37 am

I graduated in May from a T30 school (some might consider my school a T2 because the rankings were "worked" this year, but whatever). I was Top-12%, but am still underemployed. My title is officially "law clerk" but I suppose I am doing the same kind of work an attorney would do since my boss gives me the same work that he would farm out to another attorney (I work in-house).

Can't find any jobs to save my life. Send out letters, meet people at networking events, nothing seems to be panning out. I may actually have more luck making a go of it on my own. I am in the process of doing that with a buddy of mine as soon as I get my license. I know hanging your own shingle has somewhat of a bad rap because people are worried about getting meaningful experience and not being incompetent, but for me it seems like a viable alternative because I have guaranteed cash flow from potential clients of at least $5000 a month starting out. If it's just me sharing expenses with fellow attorneys, this seems like a viable set-up.

Yet I hear that like 70% of my classmates have jobs and that they are at mid-sized or smaller firms. Color me skeptical but this just sounds too good to be true.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby 2LsAPlenty » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:50 pm

studebaker07 wrote:I graduated in May from a T30 school (some might consider my school a T2 because the rankings were "worked" this year, but whatever). I was Top-12%, but am still underemployed. My title is officially "law clerk" but I suppose I am doing the same kind of work an attorney would do since my boss gives me the same work that he would farm out to another attorney (I work in-house).

Can't find any jobs to save my life. Send out letters, meet people at networking events, nothing seems to be panning out. I may actually have more luck making a go of it on my own. I am in the process of doing that with a buddy of mine as soon as I get my license. I know hanging your own shingle has somewhat of a bad rap because people are worried about getting meaningful experience and not being incompetent, but for me it seems like a viable alternative because I have guaranteed cash flow from potential clients of at least $5000 a month starting out. If it's just me sharing expenses with fellow attorneys, this seems like a viable set-up.

Yet I hear that like 70% of my classmates have jobs and that they are at mid-sized or smaller firms. Color me skeptical but this just sounds too good to be true.



70% at a T2. That is too good to be true because it is not true. I would guess maybe 30%.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby Void » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:04 pm

studebaker07 wrote:I graduated in May from a T30 school (some might consider my school a T2 because the rankings were "worked" this year, but whatever). I was Top-12%, but am still underemployed. My title is officially "law clerk" but I suppose I am doing the same kind of work an attorney would do since my boss gives me the same work that he would farm out to another attorney (I work in-house).

Can't find any jobs to save my life. Send out letters, meet people at networking events, nothing seems to be panning out. I may actually have more luck making a go of it on my own. I am in the process of doing that with a buddy of mine as soon as I get my license. I know hanging your own shingle has somewhat of a bad rap because people are worried about getting meaningful experience and not being incompetent, but for me it seems like a viable alternative because I have guaranteed cash flow from potential clients of at least $5000 a month starting out. If it's just me sharing expenses with fellow attorneys, this seems like a viable set-up.

Yet I hear that like 70% of my classmates have jobs and that they are at mid-sized or smaller firms. Color me skeptical but this just sounds too good to be true.


Wait, just so I'm clear: You're upset that you're still a law clerk, as opposed to an attorney, but you still don't have a license?

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby spleenworship » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:21 pm

2LsAPlenty wrote:
studebaker07 wrote:I graduated in May from a T30 school (some might consider my school a T2 because the rankings were "worked" this year, but whatever). I was Top-12%, but am still underemployed. My title is officially "law clerk" but I suppose I am doing the same kind of work an attorney would do since my boss gives me the same work that he would farm out to another attorney (I work in-house).

Can't find any jobs to save my life. Send out letters, meet people at networking events, nothing seems to be panning out. I may actually have more luck making a go of it on my own. I am in the process of doing that with a buddy of mine as soon as I get my license. I know hanging your own shingle has somewhat of a bad rap because people are worried about getting meaningful experience and not being incompetent, but for me it seems like a viable alternative because I have guaranteed cash flow from potential clients of at least $5000 a month starting out. If it's just me sharing expenses with fellow attorneys, this seems like a viable set-up.

Yet I hear that like 70% of my classmates have jobs and that they are at mid-sized or smaller firms. Color me skeptical but this just sounds too good to be true.



70% at a T2. That is too good to be true because it is not true. I would guess maybe 30%.


I'd actually believe 70% at T2 in mid to small firms (and government) if he indicated they had licenses. Some T2s do OK in their local markets if they are the only law schools. However, most small firms and local/state gov't don't hire till you have a license... so that number seems unrealistic.

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Re: Non-S--t Law Prospects for 3Ls Tier 2 outside the top 10-15%

Postby 20160810 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:43 pm

2LsAPlenty wrote:Many "mid-law" in the midwest start anywhere from $ 90-125,000. Smaller firms with good practices pay from $ 50-80,000. Goes down from their. Way too many candidates for all of these jobs. Some on law review have nothing lined up yet.

Midlaw firms in my CA market don't pay that much. By "Midwest" do you mean Chicago? I was under the impression big firms with midwest offices usually paid about 120.




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