Bet the Farm or Drop out

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dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:14 pm

If all you want is biglaw, drop out.

keg411
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby keg411 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:09 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:If all you want is biglaw, drop out.


+1. And those numbers are nowhere near good enough for a federal clerkship absent massive connections.

Anonymous User
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:28 pm

What about if above median at a t-14, but without a 2L SA. Worth staying? Paying sticker but any job above 80k would make law school a worthy investment.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:What about if above median at a t-14, but without a 2L SA. Worth staying? Paying sticker but any job above 80k would make law school a worthy investment.

Probably not, unless you actually want to practice law. Do you want to practice law? If you're "$80k starting salary or bust," you should drop out. You'll be in decent shape to find something, if you actually want to be a lawyer, but it's likely to pay more like $45-50k. Look up bimodal salary distribution for lawyers.

The talk of whether it's a "worthy investment" makes me think you are looking at this primarily in financial cost/benefit terms, and if that's the case, you should drop out because it isn't going to be.

(As a side note, it's remarkable how little anyone discusses whether they actually WANT TO BE A LAWYER. There are people out there getting graduate degrees in poetry and shit, and they'll work for peanuts, at least for a few years, because they really want to do the THING THEY WENT TO GRADUATE SCHOOL TO DO. What a concept.

I know that the legal profession is in the shitter and all, but I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far from the "wide-eyed wannabe Atticus Finch 0L" stereotype toward the "jaded Paul Campos worshipping struck-out-at-OCI 3L" stereotype.)

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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:40 am

Deleted.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

keg411
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby keg411 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:11 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:(As a side note, it's remarkable how little anyone discusses whether they actually WANT TO BE A LAWYER. There are people out there getting graduate degrees in poetry and shit, and they'll work for peanuts, at least for a few years, because they really want to do the THING THEY WENT TO GRADUATE SCHOOL TO DO. What a concept.

I know that the legal profession is in the shitter and all, but I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far from the "wide-eyed wannabe Atticus Finch 0L" stereotype toward the "jaded Paul Campos worshipping struck-out-at-OCI 3L" stereotype.)


+1

Anonymous User
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:47 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:What about if above median at a t-14, but without a 2L SA. Worth staying? Paying sticker but any job above 80k would make law school a worthy investment.

Probably not, unless you actually want to practice law. Do you want to practice law? If you're "$80k starting salary or bust," you should drop out. You'll be in decent shape to find something, if you actually want to be a lawyer, but it's likely to pay more like $45-50k. Look up bimodal salary distribution for lawyers.

The talk of whether it's a "worthy investment" makes me think you are looking at this primarily in financial cost/benefit terms, and if that's the case, you should drop out because it isn't going to be.

(As a side note, it's remarkable how little anyone discusses whether they actually WANT TO BE A LAWYER. There are people out there getting graduate degrees in poetry and shit, and they'll work for peanuts, at least for a few years, because they really want to do the THING THEY WENT TO GRADUATE SCHOOL TO DO. What a concept.


I know that the legal profession is in the shitter and all, but I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far from the "wide-eyed wannabe Atticus Finch 0L" stereotype toward the "jaded Paul Campos worshipping struck-out-at-OCI 3L" stereotype.)



This. Other than those at the very elite law schools and the top 5 to 10% of all the others, the reality is for the vast majority of students, it will be difficult to find a legal job where you will learn useful skills and be paid much more than $ 50,000.

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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:13 am

I'm a 3L with pretty much the same exact stats except top 25% and law review at t20, and I also had a finance undergrad degree. If it wasn't from a shit-tastic school that no one respects, I would have dropped out and gotten a job in finance after striking out. However, if you want a job in law and stay and bet the farm, you still have IBR to fall back on. People on here talk about IBR like it's the worst thing ever, but if you get into the program at 10% for 20 years, you won't ever even pay back the principal amount (if you owe 150K+) over those years, let alone interest. If you do, you're swimming in money anyways. Yes, I'm aware they can get rid of IBR, but if you're not grandfathered in, then there's a good chance that the economy/world is in the toilet anyways if they actually cancel the program.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm a 3L with pretty much the same exact stats except top 25% and law review at t20, and I also had a finance undergrad degree. If it wasn't from a shit-tastic school that no one respects, I would have dropped out and gotten a job in finance after striking out. However, if you want a job in law and stay and bet the farm, you still have IBR to fall back on. People on here talk about IBR like it's the worst thing ever, but if you get into the program at 10% for 20 years, you won't ever even pay back the principal amount (if you owe 150K+) over those years, let alone interest. If you do, you're swimming in money anyways. Yes, I'm aware they can get rid of IBR, but if you're not grandfathered in, then there's a good chance that the economy/world is in the toilet anyways if they actually cancel the program.


You must be at George Washington or Minnesota.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby TatteredDignity » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:35 am

Desert Fox wrote:Friends don't let friends stay at WASHU. Drop it like's it a newborn.

Appreciate the obligatory WUSTL insult, but we dropped out of T20 last year. So make fun of us for that, instead.

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dood
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby dood » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:38 am

keg411 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:(As a side note, it's remarkable how little anyone discusses whether they actually WANT TO BE A LAWYER. There are people out there getting graduate degrees in poetry and shit, and they'll work for peanuts, at least for a few years, because they really want to do the THING THEY WENT TO GRADUATE SCHOOL TO DO. What a concept.

I know that the legal profession is in the shitter and all, but I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far from the "wide-eyed wannabe Atticus Finch 0L" stereotype toward the "jaded Paul Campos worshipping struck-out-at-OCI 3L" stereotype.)


+1


+2

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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:42 am

bizzybone1313 wrote:You must be at George Washington or Minnesota.


wusTTTl, we were t20 at the time of my OCI, no clue what we are now. There were also 3 other students in top 10% on LR that didn't find anything. My friendly PSA to any 0L's reading this: if you're a white male with no hard science background, don't go to wustl unless it's free - the competition (going off lsat scores) is just as hard as any similarly ranked school, but with half (at best) as good job prospects.

Anonymous User
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:You must be at George Washington or Minnesota.


wusTTTl, we were t20 at the time of my OCI, no clue what we are now. There were also 3 other students in top 10% on LR that didn't find anything. My friendly PSA to any 0L's reading this: if you're a white male with no hard science background, don't go to wustl unless it's free - the competition (going off lsat scores) is just as hard as any similarly ranked school, but with half (at best) as good job prospects.



Yep, St. Louis market is thin. Only about 30 biglaw jobs a year with several local schools to compete with.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby TatteredDignity » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:You must be at George Washington or Minnesota.


wusTTTl, we were t20 at the time of my OCI, no clue what we are now. There were also 3 other students in top 10% on LR that didn't find anything. My friendly PSA to any 0L's reading this: if you're a white male with no hard science background, don't go to wustl unless it's free - the competition (going off lsat scores) is just as hard as any similarly ranked school, but with half (at best) as good job prospects.


Ah, I figured you were a 2L. Also didn't think wustl because we don't have a 4 point scale. By the time my class went through OCI a couple of months ago, we'd already dropped to 24 or something.

Really sorry to hear about your striking out. Apparently top 20% isn't all it used to be... Couple of my friends either struck out there or got a very late offer.

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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:31 pm

Thought Romo would weigh in on this one.

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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:33 pm

(As a side note, it's remarkable how little anyone discusses whether they actually WANT TO BE A LAWYER. There are people out there getting graduate degrees in poetry and shit, and they'll work for peanuts, at least for a few years, because they really want to do the THING THEY WENT TO GRADUATE SCHOOL TO DO. What a concept.

I know that the legal profession is in the shitter and all, but I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far from the "wide-eyed wannabe Atticus Finch 0L" stereotype toward the "jaded Paul Campos worshipping struck-out-at-OCI 3L" stereotype.)[/quote]

OP here. I like law school and legal work in general but not enough to be poor for the rest of my life. In fact, there's nothing that I like that much, be it studying poetry or becoming a professional horseshoes player.

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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:05 pm

dood wrote:
keg411 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:(As a side note, it's remarkable how little anyone discusses whether they actually WANT TO BE A LAWYER. There are people out there getting graduate degrees in poetry and shit, and they'll work for peanuts, at least for a few years, because they really want to do the THING THEY WENT TO GRADUATE SCHOOL TO DO. What a concept.

I know that the legal profession is in the shitter and all, but I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far from the "wide-eyed wannabe Atticus Finch 0L" stereotype toward the "jaded Paul Campos worshipping struck-out-at-OCI 3L" stereotype.)


+1


+2



Hmmm? What does it mean to like being a lawyer? Sounds to me as simple as saying "I like law because I like arguing."
Let's assume in a hypothetical world that the so-called "shitlaw" paid as much as biglaw, and let's assume that prestige does not matter.
For someone who absolutely loves law, will they be equally happy doing DUI's as they would be doing biglaw work in DC or another major market?? If anything, someone can argue that loving law makes it even more painful when you strike out. Not only are you out of money, but you will basically forever be on a lower level than your biglaw peers when it comes to complexity and importance of cases.

keg411
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby keg411 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:20 pm

Not everyone can work in BigLaw doing complex work. If you're not willing to do something else within the legal industry, then if you can't get BigLaw, you should drop out. If you went to a non-T14 (or even a lower T14) without a back-up plan of something to do besides BigLaw, then that's on you. If you think that type of work is somehow "below" you, that is your own problem.

If you take away the disgusting amount of debt (which is the biggest problem, IMO), then you should be able to make a comfortable living even working in "shitlaw". The people who are truly fucked are those who get stuck in doc review/contract work or end up at total bottom-dweller small firms with really bad people running them (and the latter isn't that difficult to spot if you're smart about your job search).

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DildaMan
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby DildaMan » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:24 pm

Drop it like it's hot.

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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:33 pm

TatteredDignity wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:You must be at George Washington or Minnesota.


wusTTTl, we were t20 at the time of my OCI, no clue what we are now. There were also 3 other students in top 10% on LR that didn't find anything. My friendly PSA to any 0L's reading this: if you're a white male with no hard science background, don't go to wustl unless it's free - the competition (going off lsat scores) is just as hard as any similarly ranked school, but with half (at best) as good job prospects.


Ah, I figured you were a 2L. Also didn't think wustl because we don't have a 4 point scale. By the time my class went through OCI a couple of months ago, we'd already dropped to 24 or something.

Really sorry to hear about your striking out. Apparently top 20% isn't all it used to be... Couple of my friends either struck out there or got a very late offer.


Sorry, not the op, just offering what I would have done if I was able to get a job in finance.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby somewhatwayward » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not to hijack this thread, but what about my situation?

Lower T-14, no journal, moot court, below median. No debt, but family taking out loans on mortgage to pay for the tuition. liberal arts major undergrad, but could potentially go back to job pre-law school in an industry that pays 50k/year entry.


Not to kick you while you are down (I feel for you, and I believe that big law hiring at T-14 schools has a large luck component that you apparently ended up on the wrong side of, assuming your grades are not absolute bottom of the barrel), but if you fail to get a high enough paying job to cover your loans, can your parents afford to pay the loans back? If not, you are potentially saddling them with huge debt that they can't cover as (I am guessing) they near retirement. If you do decide to stay in school, I would strongly recommend taking out your own loans from the government and, if necessary, private lenders.

if you actually like the law and want to practice, striking out at 2L OCI is not the be-all and end-all. Reach out to the poster 'timbs' - his name has some numbers at the end but I don't remember what they are. If you go to member search and search for 'timbs*' he should come up. He struck out at 2L OCI but ended up getting several decent job offers by the time he graduated last May. He exhausted every possibility and should have lots of suggestions for you.

Also, you should really try to get your grades up. It is 2L, so it is easier to get As by taking classes with easier curves (usually seminars or small classes) or just because many people have job offers and are coasting and not trying as hard as 1L year. Plus LLMs sometimes make the curve easier, too. Since you are definitely going to finish this semester, give it your all this finals period. If you are in any classes where you have to write a paper, look into getting it published (you can send it to lots of legal journals using expresso which is a service your law school library should subscribe to). The point is to do things that will boost your resume if you do decide to stay....you need to improve on below median with no journal. I have some more thoughts but have to run. I will come back later or you can PM me. Good luck!

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androstan
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby androstan » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:26 pm

OP: I'd "bet the farm." Mass mail hard, pound the pavement for a 2L summer judicial internship, preferably for a federal court, and work hard on exams to bump your GPA up some more. If you work it hard enough and spread a wide net, you can get a solid job through 3L OCI or a district court clerkship.

And there's always IBR. I wouldn't throw in the towel, your numbers are good enough for something. Assuming you actually want to be a lawyer. If you just went to LS to get a high paying biglaw gig, with no interest in the work whatsoever, you should probably drop out.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
dood wrote:
keg411 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:(As a side note, it's remarkable how little anyone discusses whether they actually WANT TO BE A LAWYER. There are people out there getting graduate degrees in poetry and shit, and they'll work for peanuts, at least for a few years, because they really want to do the THING THEY WENT TO GRADUATE SCHOOL TO DO. What a concept.

I know that the legal profession is in the shitter and all, but I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far from the "wide-eyed wannabe Atticus Finch 0L" stereotype toward the "jaded Paul Campos worshipping struck-out-at-OCI 3L" stereotype.)


+1


+2



Hmmm? What does it mean to like being a lawyer? Sounds to me as simple as saying "I like law because I like arguing."
Let's assume in a hypothetical world that the so-called "shitlaw" paid as much as biglaw, and let's assume that prestige does not matter.
For someone who absolutely loves law, will they be equally happy doing DUI's as they would be doing biglaw work in DC or another major market?? If anything, someone can argue that loving law makes it even more painful when you strike out. Not only are you out of money, but you will basically forever be on a lower level than your biglaw peers when it comes to complexity and importance of cases.

They might be, yeah. If you promised me I'd make $160,000 a year, I think I would happily work for a small firm doing plaintiff side work, helping small businesses draft agreements, doing wills, family law, etc. over working in Biglaw. I don't think I'm alone. There's a lot to be said for having responsibility over the direction of your own work, and for being able to see the tangible results when you help someone.

I'm not saying you have to "love the law." Most people who say shit like that are insufferable. But if you're considering being a litigator, for instance, you should have some sense of whether or not you get pleasure out of piecing together factual narratives from small, disjointed bits of evidence, or from finding a nuance in the law that supports your theory of a case, or writing persuasively, or taking depositions. Or from doing any of the above well to help a person or entity achieve something.

A lot of people really don't think about it, which I just find strange, and makes me question their odds of being professionally satisfied, Biglaw or no.

Anonymous User
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Re: Bet the Farm or Drop out

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:05 pm

androstan wrote:OP: I'd "bet the farm." Mass mail hard, pound the pavement for a 2L summer judicial internship, preferably for a federal court, and work hard on exams to bump your GPA up some more. If you work it hard enough and spread a wide net, you can get a solid job through 3L OCI or a district court clerkship.



What? That sounds like a terrible idea and will get you nowhere. You would be way better off working as a law clerk somewhere that would 1) pay you and 2) potentially be able to hire you after graduation.




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