"Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

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SuperCerealBrah
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:55 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:Here's a nice summary of the clip:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... tant_says/

It's not surprising in the least that large-firm partners aren't terribly business-savvy, and seriously lack common sense and basic reasoning ability. Law schools set the bar so low that even the "superstars" of the industry are intellectual lightweights compared to Wall Streeters and corporate types. It's why a small town doctor who got his medical degree offshore has 10,000X the lay prestige of a SCOTUS justice. Medicine requires brains, law requires only bale upon bale of silly paper churning.


LOL at this post :lol:


By the way sadsituation, I did a BS in biochem and also have a masters. It does not require you to be an "intellectual powerhouse". And lmao even more at the notion of the corporate types being such intellectual heavyweights. Seriously bro, get out of la la land.
Last edited by SuperCerealBrah on Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SuperCerealBrah
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Agreed, but the comparison to medicine is faulty. Medicine requires a true advanced degree. The problem is a JD is essentially a second bachelor's degree. That's what it started out as, and only the name has changed. That's not the same as law being somehow intellectually inferior to medicine. Law is most comparable with a B.S. in Chemistry.

The point about excessive compensation is credited, however. The business model of the big 4 would actually make a lot more sense for law than the current big firm model does. Basically, if you want to go to law school, you should be able to get a JD at 18 and then start working 80 hours/week for $50,000/year. Either you do your time and move on to better paying "exit options," or you stay on and eventually earn $800,000+ compensation as a partner. There's no way in hell that anybody fresh out of law school deserves $160,000/year. It's just absurd.

The absurdity is that in most careers, you get paid more as you gain more responsibility. In law, the vast majority of lawyers who get the top jobs (big law) make more $ their first year out of law school than they ever will again, or ever will for a long time, because in-house--and most exit options--pay much less. In what kind of career is it common to peak at 26? Gymnastics?


I agree with pretty much everything in this post. I don't think law should be any different than accounting.

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glitched
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby glitched » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:05 pm

genpres wrote:
glitched wrote:Chemistry, esp. organic chemistry, is among the most difficult subjects in all of academia. Comparing it to legalese nonsense like offer-acceptance and Civ. Pro makework hogwash is patently absurd. The stupidest MD from an offshore school is an intellectual powerhouse compared to ANY lawyer.


Former chemist here, and my SO is in med school. I'd agree that chemistry was harder than law in general, but to call it "among the most difficult subjects in all of academia" is ridiculous. The idea that the stupidest MD is smarter than any lawyer is also ridiculous. I tutored med students in biochemistry for awhile, and let me tell you... medicine has its own fair share of idiots. The truth is, you can get through much of the basic science curriculum (e.g. anatomy, physiology, microbiology, biochemistry) with just a halfway decent mind for memorization and an understanding of how to use flashcards. Even in subjects like orgo, it's not like you need a genius IQ to memorize the process for halogenation. The hero worship of doctors on tls is bizarre to me.


ummm... i did not write that - misquote is misquoted. please quote correctly next time.

btw i took orgo, biochem, and biophysical chem. my grades were A+, A, and A respectively at a very competitive school with just as strict a curve. I got a B in civ pro. They're just way too different and require different sets of skills.

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vanwinkle
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:13 pm

sadsituationJD wrote: It's plainly obvious that the "average" biglaw firm is a business model that will likely vanish within the next 5 years. Fortune 500 companies use these firms ONLY because the major partners have the political clout & "juice" to grease thru shady deals that, for the most part, are not in the public interest. That's what corporate clients are interested in, not the squads of makework drone paper-pushers that are called "associates." The work of associates only had value (from a partner's perspective) when clients were foolish enough to pay a rate high enough for the partner to "mark up" that work and essentially "re-sell" it at a huge profit, not because the work itself had any value in its own right. You could replace these "associates" with the anchormen from Cooley and it would make absolutely no difference in terms of the "deal" going thru, since their only role is to push bales of needless makework.

I love the complete lack of understanding about the BigLaw business model present in the above post. It's entertaining.

genpres
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby genpres » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:24 pm

ehshornet wrote:
Bigbub75 wrote:
sadsituationJD wrote:
Law is most comparable with a B.S. in Chemistry.


Um, no. Chemistry, esp. organic chemistry, is among the most difficult subjects in all of academia. Comparing it to legalese nonsense like offer-acceptance and Civ. Pro makework hogwash is patently absurd. The stupidest MD from an offshore school is an intellectual powerhouse compared to ANY lawyer.


I kinda disagree with the notion that MD = intellectual powerhouse. My two best friends are both physicians (Vascular surgeon & ER Doc). The surgeon is far from an intellectual. He is a very hard worker, and can lock himself in the room and study for hours. He's pretty good at memorization, but not even he would consider himself an intellectual. When he discusses anything outside of medicine this is very apparent.


As a joint degree candidate (J.D./M.S. in chemistry) with a B.S. in chemistry, it is absolutely absured to equate law with a B.S. in chemistry. Law and chemistry require two types of thinking. And, I can assure you, my B.S. in chemistry was much harder than law school. Law school is a joke compared to getting a B.S. in chemistry.

And for those commenting on tutoring the pre-med students, how many of those students actually made it through the pre-med track and committed to applying to med school and becoming a doctor? The population you have selected does not add any significance to the argument unless you can vouch that they all went onto to become doctors. Because trust me...I have tutored a lot of pre-med kids in chem that ended up not following through the pre-med track or ended up not getting in because their grades were too low because of the rigors of the pre-med track. A lot of the people that I knew that went to med school were ones that did not seek out a tutor and worked independtly, in study groups, or sought out the professor.

While I do not agree that MD = intellectual powerhouse, I am much more impressed with someone who has gone through med school as compared to law school. Even though a doctor may not be able to engage in a political debate or discuss a literary work, there is no way that he could have gotten through his/her pre-med requirements, taken the MCAT, and gone through med school through rote memorization. Memorization only gets someone so far. Advanced science undergrad classes, the MCAT, and med school exams require the application of those memorized details.


Eh, my SO is a 3rd year, and so far it's been mostly rote memorization. Have you looked at a med school exam? Mostly multiple-choice or matching, and mostly memorized facts (e.g. The following picture shows a cell from which type of tissue? or Which set of symptoms indicates a diagnosis of X?). Pharmacology is obviously chem-heavy, but anyone who did okay in pre-med chemistry courses can handle the stuff they cover. My SO openly admits this. Law is obviously not the most intellectually stimulating field in the world, but neither is medicine. You don't need to be brilliant to get either degree.

Getting your MS is definitely more difficult because you actually write an original thesis, but even then I don't think it's anything a reasonable intelligent person couldn't handle. Unless your curriculum is somehow completely different than my school's, I guess.

09042014
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby 09042014 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:25 pm

As long as the American justice system has huge verdicts there will be someone willing to pay a lot for good lawyers.

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vanwinkle
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:47 pm

Desert Fox wrote:As long as the American justice system has huge verdicts there will be someone willing to pay a lot for good lawyers.

This, and not just for the litigation side. The transactional side of the BigLaw business model is partly driven by this too. There are plenty of shareholders and counterparties out there who might turn litigious, and it's to the corporation's advantage to pay outside counsel to handle matters because doing so reduces their potential liability in future lawsuits. So long as we have litigation system that recognizes the business judgment rule, we'll have corporations shelling out big money to top law firms.

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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:13 pm

I didn't read all the posts here, but I think law does take brains. I go to a T-30 of good reputation, and I wouldn't want a friend to hire a number of my classmates for legal services. Being a good lawyer takes analytical ability, good writing, hard work, and maturity, and a lot of people don't have that. Medical schools churn out of lots of people who probably shouldn't be doctors either, but it still takes intelligence to be a good doctor.

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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:22 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:
Law is most comparable with a B.S. in Chemistry.


Um, no. Chemistry, esp. organic chemistry, is among the most difficult subjects in all of academia. Comparing it to legalese nonsense like offer-acceptance and Civ. Pro makework hogwash is patently absurd. The stupidest MD from an offshore school is an intellectual powerhouse compared to ANY lawyer.

trolololol

sadsituationJD
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby sadsituationJD » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:38 pm

I think that, if the biglaw model survived (survives?) the recent crash, it's safe to say it's not going anywhere anytime soon. If there was going to be a massive restructuring, it would have happened already. There have been some structural shifts, but not a total tear-down-and-rebuild. Market SA's are harder and more competitive, not nonexistent.



It won't survive the next crash, which is coming (and coming fast, BTW). The very fact that you aspire and "dream" of being a "drone" pusher of bales of makework cut n' paste legalese pigslop shows how utterly out of touch with the coming reality you are:

--LinkRemoved--

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beachbum
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby beachbum » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:43 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:
I think that, if the biglaw model survived (survives?) the recent crash, it's safe to say it's not going anywhere anytime soon. If there was going to be a massive restructuring, it would have happened already. There have been some structural shifts, but not a total tear-down-and-rebuild. Market SA's are harder and more competitive, not nonexistent.



It won't survive the next crash, which is coming (and coming fast, BTW). The very fact that you aspire and "dream" of being a "drone" pusher of bales of makework cut n' paste legalese pigslop shows how utterly out of touch with the coming reality you are:

--LinkRemoved--


Meh, I wouldn't worry too much about this. I mean, none of us are even going to live past December 21st.

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dingbat
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby dingbat » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:07 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:
I think that, if the biglaw model survived (survives?) the recent crash, it's safe to say it's not going anywhere anytime soon. If there was going to be a massive restructuring, it would have happened already. There have been some structural shifts, but not a total tear-down-and-rebuild. Market SA's are harder and more competitive, not nonexistent.



It won't survive the next crash, which is coming (and coming fast, BTW).

This is such bullshit.
Tell me why you think it won't survive and I will refute your arguments.

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androstan
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby androstan » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:11 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:As long as the American justice system has huge verdicts there will be someone willing to pay a lot for good lawyers.

This, and not just for the litigation side. The transactional side of the BigLaw business model is partly driven by this too. There are plenty of shareholders and counterparties out there who might turn litigious, and it's to the corporation's advantage to pay outside counsel to handle matters because doing so reduces their potential liability in future lawsuits. So long as we have litigation system that recognizes the business judgment rule, we'll have corporations shelling out big money to top law firms.


+1

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IAFG
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:17 pm

dingbat wrote:
sadsituationJD wrote:
I think that, if the biglaw model survived (survives?) the recent crash, it's safe to say it's not going anywhere anytime soon. If there was going to be a massive restructuring, it would have happened already. There have been some structural shifts, but not a total tear-down-and-rebuild. Market SA's are harder and more competitive, not nonexistent.



It won't survive the next crash, which is coming (and coming fast, BTW).

This is such bullshit.
Tell me why you think it won't survive and I will refute your arguments.

He provided a link with some arguments that you can find in 1980s commentary on the same subjects.

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homestyle28
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby homestyle28 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:19 pm

sadsituationJD wrote: --LinkRemoved--


Holy shitturds, how can a person pack so many over-the-top adjectives into one article while at the same time not including a single fact? I'm surprised that page even rendered correctly.

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dingbat
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby dingbat » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:26 pm

IAFG wrote:
dingbat wrote:
sadsituationJD wrote:
I think that, if the biglaw model survived (survives?) the recent crash, it's safe to say it's not going anywhere anytime soon. If there was going to be a massive restructuring, it would have happened already. There have been some structural shifts, but not a total tear-down-and-rebuild. Market SA's are harder and more competitive, not nonexistent.



It won't survive the next crash, which is coming (and coming fast, BTW).

This is such bullshit.
Tell me why you think it won't survive and I will refute your arguments.

He provided a link with some arguments that you can find in 1980s commentary on the same subjects.

I didn't see any arguments, just ravings and platitutes (nope, couldn't even find platitutes)
I actually feel dumber for having read that shit

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stewie27
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby stewie27 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:27 pm

beachbum wrote:
sadsituationJD wrote:
I think that, if the biglaw model survived (survives?) the recent crash, it's safe to say it's not going anywhere anytime soon. If there was going to be a massive restructuring, it would have happened already. There have been some structural shifts, but not a total tear-down-and-rebuild. Market SA's are harder and more competitive, not nonexistent.



It won't survive the next crash, which is coming (and coming fast, BTW). The very fact that you aspire and "dream" of being a "drone" pusher of bales of makework cut n' paste legalese pigslop shows how utterly out of touch with the coming reality you are:

--LinkRemoved--


Meh, I wouldn't worry too much about this. I mean, none of us are even going to live past December 21st.

That's my plan. Joke's on you student loan debt. (If the end of the world doesn't come, I'm going to be the most bummed out person on Dec. 22nd.)

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androstan
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby androstan » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:28 pm

IAFG wrote:
dingbat wrote:
sadsituationJD wrote:
I think that, if the biglaw model survived (survives?) the recent crash, it's safe to say it's not going anywhere anytime soon. If there was going to be a massive restructuring, it would have happened already. There have been some structural shifts, but not a total tear-down-and-rebuild. Market SA's are harder and more competitive, not nonexistent.



It won't survive the next crash, which is coming (and coming fast, BTW).

This is such bullshit.
Tell me why you think it won't survive and I will refute your arguments.

He provided a link with some arguments that you can find in 1980s commentary on the same subjects.


Glad to hear this, cuz "lol didn't read."

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Bronte
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby Bronte » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:31 pm

I love bales of makework cut n' paste legalese pigslop. Love 'em.

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androstan
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby androstan » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:34 pm

Bronte wrote:I love bales of makework cut n' paste legalese pigslop. Love 'em.


Couldn't care less as long as I get paid.

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IAFG
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:35 pm

androstan wrote:
Bronte wrote:I love bales of makework cut n' paste legalese pigslop. Love 'em.


Couldn't care less as long as I get paid.

Yes, well, the criticism is coming from someone who didn't and isn't getting paid.

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dingbat
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby dingbat » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:37 pm

androstan wrote:
Bronte wrote:I love bales of makework cut n' paste legalese pigslop. Love 'em.


Couldn't care less as long as I get paid.

Nobody's paying biglaw prices for cut n' paste legalese pigslop.
But if you want a shitlaw partner billing for less than an electrician, then you're golden

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androstan
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby androstan » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:44 pm

dingbat wrote:
androstan wrote:
Bronte wrote:I love bales of makework cut n' paste legalese pigslop. Love 'em.


Couldn't care less as long as I get paid.

Nobody's paying biglaw prices for cut n' paste legalese pigslop.
But if you want a shitlaw partner billing for less than an electrician, then you're golden


Not sure what your point is. I just don't care if I have to do tedious, boring, or rote work as long as it pays. Perhaps I was unclear.

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Tanicius
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby Tanicius » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:49 pm

The stupidest MD from an offshore school is an intellectual powerhouse compared to ANY lawyer.


You guys really suck at trolling.

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glitched
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Re: "Suicide Pricing" & the coming law firm crisis

Postby glitched » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:51 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:
I think that, if the biglaw model survived (survives?) the recent crash, it's safe to say it's not going anywhere anytime soon. If there was going to be a massive restructuring, it would have happened already. There have been some structural shifts, but not a total tear-down-and-rebuild. Market SA's are harder and more competitive, not nonexistent.



It won't survive the next crash, which is coming (and coming fast, BTW). The very fact that you aspire and "dream" of being a "drone" pusher of bales of makework cut n' paste legalese pigslop shows how utterly out of touch with the coming reality you are:

--LinkRemoved--


this guy has to be a troll. either that or he's just not an intellectual powerhouse.




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