2013 Presidential Management Fellows

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2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:26 am

Anyone else considering applying? I was reading that they did away with both the nominations process and letters of rec, but, I can't wrap my head around it. Anyone know the deal there?

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:09 pm

basically that. you still do the assessments, have a limited amount of time to submit an application, and do the PMF finalist fair in the spring.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:30 pm

Original poster here: thanks for that. Also, how important are grades to the process? Is this one of those situations where experiences, in say, government, matter?

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Teoeo
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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Teoeo » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:37 pm

I am also curious about this program. Anyone have any info?

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snowpeach06
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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby snowpeach06 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:43 pm

Teoeo wrote:I am also curious about this program. Anyone have any info?


Ditto. I met one of these fellows at an internship, and thought it might be a cool program, but, I didn't really know it was "legal." Now that its back on my radar though, it might be worth while.

All I really know about it is that you rotate jobs and its very prestigious.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:41 pm

Current PMF here. There are some "legal" PMF positions, but very few and they're generally not advertised on the main PMF jobs website. They reach out to you themselves. Many of the positions are "JD preferred" types. It can be a great program depending on the agency you get an offer from. Grades don't matter until you're a finalist, and even then it depends on the agency.

snowpeach06 wrote:
Teoeo wrote:I am also curious about this program. Anyone have any info?


Ditto. I met one of these fellows at an internship, and thought it might be a cool program, but, I didn't really know it was "legal." Now that its back on my radar though, it might be worth while.

All I really know about it is that you rotate jobs and its very prestigious.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Current PMF here. There are some "legal" PMF positions, but very few and they're generally not advertised on the main PMF jobs website. They reach out to you themselves. Many of the positions are "JD preferred" types. It can be a great program depending on the agency you get an offer from. Grades don't matter until you're a finalist, and even then it depends on the agency.

snowpeach06 wrote:
Teoeo wrote:I am also curious about this program. Anyone have any info?


Ditto. I met one of these fellows at an internship, and thought it might be a cool program, but, I didn't really know it was "legal." Now that its back on my radar though, it might be worth while.

All I really know about it is that you rotate jobs and its very prestigious.



Could you possibly give a ballpark on how many positions are typically available outside of the DC metro area at the finalist job fair? I'm not really interested in living in DC and am curious if it's worth it to apply.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:36 pm

It's hard to predict because the agency hiring changes yearly. The vast majority of the jobs law students want are in DC, including all of the (very few) truly legal jobs. However, last year the DOL had an opening in the NYC area, the CDC had several openings in Atlanta for policy related positions, and the CFPB had openings in NYC and Chicago for bank examiners. Veterans Affairs had openings all over the country, but I'm not sure how well those jobs would work for law students since they were barely policy related. It's definitely worth it to apply though, especially if you have nothing else lined up.

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Current PMF here. There are some "legal" PMF positions, but very few and they're generally not advertised on the main PMF jobs website. They reach out to you themselves. Many of the positions are "JD preferred" types. It can be a great program depending on the agency you get an offer from. Grades don't matter until you're a finalist, and even then it depends on the agency.

snowpeach06 wrote:
Teoeo wrote:I am also curious about this program. Anyone have any info?


Ditto. I met one of these fellows at an internship, and thought it might be a cool program, but, I didn't really know it was "legal." Now that its back on my radar though, it might be worth while.

All I really know about it is that you rotate jobs and its very prestigious.



Could you possibly give a ballpark on how many positions are typically available outside of the DC metro area at the finalist job fair? I'm not really interested in living in DC and am curious if it's worth it to apply.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:45 pm

Like most said, most of the positions will end up being not legal related. Personally know 3 PMFs, none are doing work requiring bar passage.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby snowpeach06 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:51 pm

[quote="Anonymous User"]It's hard to predict because the agency hiring changes yearly. The vast majority of the jobs law students want are in DC, including all of the (very few) truly legal jobs. However, last year the DOL had an opening in the NYC area, the CDC had several openings in Atlanta for policy related positions, and the CFPB had openings in NYC and Chicago for bank examiners. Veterans Affairs had openings all over the country, but I'm not sure how well those jobs would work for law students since they were barely policy related. It's definitely worth it to apply though, especially if you have nothing else lined up.

So is it mostly policy jobs? That's what I'm primarily interested in anyway, so, that would be great. Did you take the bar? Do they allow you time for that? And what is the likely situation about a job after the fellowship is over?

Also, what do you think they are looking for in semi-finalists? Do you think there was a particular reason you were chosen?

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:04 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It's hard to predict because the agency hiring changes yearly. The vast majority of the jobs law students want are in DC, including all of the (very few) truly legal jobs. However, last year the DOL had an opening in the NYC area, the CDC had several openings in Atlanta for policy related positions, and the CFPB had openings in NYC and Chicago for bank examiners. Veterans Affairs had openings all over the country, but I'm not sure how well those jobs would work for law students since they were barely policy related. It's definitely worth it to apply though, especially if you have nothing else lined up.

So is it mostly policy jobs? That's what I'm primarily interested in anyway, so, that would be great. Did you take the bar? Do they allow you time for that? And what is the likely situation about a job after the fellowship is over?

Also, what do you think they are looking for in semi-finalists? Do you think there was a particular reason you were chosen?


I'm in one of the few PMF jobs that needs bar passage, so I had no problem with that and of course took the bar. I don't want to say what agency or how that ended up happening, but basically some agencies have less experience with the PMF program than others and don't realize it isn't designed for legal postions. Most of the positions I interviewed for were policy based, but understood you were a law grad and needed to take the bar for your own development. You will definitely be able to get a start date after the bar at most agencies.

The semi-finalist process was completely different last year than it will be this year. Last year it was this wierd personality test and essay. Then the finalist process was a behavioral interview. What helped me get offers though was a strong school, and lots of relevant federal government internships. Commitment to public service is very important to show for law grads, since most agencies might think you're doing PMF because you couldn't find a legal job (which may be true) and will be hesitant to hire you. You need to show them that this actually this fits in to what you wanted to do all along.

PMFs convert non-competetively into a permanent position after the fellowship. There's some complications with that for legal positions (like in my case), but basically as long as you perform well you can be doing the same job you were as a fellow but permanently.

the lantern
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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby the lantern » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:55 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It's hard to predict because the agency hiring changes yearly. The vast majority of the jobs law students want are in DC, including all of the (very few) truly legal jobs. However, last year the DOL had an opening in the NYC area, the CDC had several openings in Atlanta for policy related positions, and the CFPB had openings in NYC and Chicago for bank examiners. Veterans Affairs had openings all over the country, but I'm not sure how well those jobs would work for law students since they were barely policy related. It's definitely worth it to apply though, especially if you have nothing else lined up.

So is it mostly policy jobs? That's what I'm primarily interested in anyway, so, that would be great. Did you take the bar? Do they allow you time for that? And what is the likely situation about a job after the fellowship is over?

Also, what do you think they are looking for in semi-finalists? Do you think there was a particular reason you were chosen?


per the PMF recruiter that visited our school, semifinalists are chosen 100% based on the weird personality test they give. It will ask a bunch of questions like "If you were in this situation, what would you be most likely to do?" and stuff like that.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby westbayguy » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:PMFs convert non-competetively into a permanent position after the fellowship. [b]There's some complications with that for legal positions [/b](like in my case), but basically as long as you perform well you can be doing the same job you were as a fellow but permanently.


Could you elaborate on this?

augusta1985
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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby augusta1985 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:49 pm

I am a 2011 law grad and am currently clerking for a judge. Am I eligible to apply for 2013 PMF? The website seems to say that graduates who've obtained their degrees up to 2 years prior to 2013 can apply.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:58 pm

Bump.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:11 am

I know your position and saw your linkedin (not trying to be a stalker, I am genuinely impressed). I also got one of the "law jobs" out there. They key for law students is to be lucky, but also blanket the agencies. Usually the lesser known ones will pick up someone in the legal department.

Anonymous User wrote:
snowpeach06 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:It's hard to predict because the agency hiring changes yearly. The vast majority of the jobs law students want are in DC, including all of the (very few) truly legal jobs. However, last year the DOL had an opening in the NYC area, the CDC had several openings in Atlanta for policy related positions, and the CFPB had openings in NYC and Chicago for bank examiners. Veterans Affairs had openings all over the country, but I'm not sure how well those jobs would work for law students since they were barely policy related. It's definitely worth it to apply though, especially if you have nothing else lined up.

So is it mostly policy jobs? That's what I'm primarily interested in anyway, so, that would be great. Did you take the bar? Do they allow you time for that? And what is the likely situation about a job after the fellowship is over?

Also, what do you think they are looking for in semi-finalists? Do you think there was a particular reason you were chosen?


I'm in one of the few PMF jobs that needs bar passage, so I had no problem with that and of course took the bar. I don't want to say what agency or how that ended up happening, but basically some agencies have less experience with the PMF program than others and don't realize it isn't designed for legal postions. Most of the positions I interviewed for were policy based, but understood you were a law grad and needed to take the bar for your own development. You will definitely be able to get a start date after the bar at most agencies.

The semi-finalist process was completely different last year than it will be this year. Last year it was this wierd personality test and essay. Then the finalist process was a behavioral interview. What helped me get offers though was a strong school, and lots of relevant federal government internships. Commitment to public service is very important to show for law grads, since most agencies might think you're doing PMF because you couldn't find a legal job (which may be true) and will be hesitant to hire you. You need to show them that this actually this fits in to what you wanted to do all along.

PMFs convert non-competetively into a permanent position after the fellowship. There's some complications with that for legal positions (like in my case), but basically as long as you perform well you can be doing the same job you were as a fellow but permanently.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:05 pm

assuming one becomes a finalist, how difficult is it to then get a PMF position at an agency?

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:assuming one becomes a finalist, how difficult is it to then get a PMF position at an agency?


Odds are similar to getting biglaw through OCI at a lower T14 school. But if you're a veteran you're pretty much guaranteed to get something.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:assuming one becomes a finalist, how difficult is it to then get a PMF position at an agency?


Odds are similar to getting biglaw through OCI at a lower T14 school. But if you're a veteran you're pretty much guaranteed to get something.


As a veteran, this intrgues me. Is veterans preference that valuable for this application??

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:08 pm

Basically, all PMFs are considered equally qualified. So if a veteran wants a position, it has to go to the veteran over any interested non-veteran. If it doesn't, agencies have to write a justification letter about why the veteran didn't get the appointment. So this increases the possibility of appointment for veterans significantly.

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:assuming one becomes a finalist, how difficult is it to then get a PMF position at an agency?


Odds are similar to getting biglaw through OCI at a lower T14 school. But if you're a veteran you're pretty much guaranteed to get something.


As a veteran, this intrgues me. Is veterans preference that valuable for this application??

Anonymous User
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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:45 pm

Does anyone know when we should expect to hear if we have been selected as semi-finalists?

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know when we should expect to hear if we have been selected as semi-finalists?

There's a timeline on the webpage that says "mid-December," whatever that means exactly.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know when we should expect to hear if we have been selected as semi-finalists?

There's a timeline on the webpage that says "mid-December," whatever that means exactly.


True but that date was set before the application period was extended, so selections could be delayed.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know when we should expect to hear if we have been selected as semi-finalists?

There's a timeline on the webpage that says "mid-December," whatever that means exactly.


True but that date was set before the application period was extended, so selections could be delayed.

Yeah, but probably no more than the week it was extended. Plus the schedule on the webpage was updated to the extended due date, so if they had intended to change the notification timeline, they could have.

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Re: 2013 Presidential Management Fellows

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:00 pm

Current PMF in policy position. A few observations. As other have pointed out, it's important to demonstrate your genuine interest in fed govt work. I was fortunate to get my top agency choice because I was committed to the agency's overall mission and the office's subj matter and it showed during the interview.

There are ways to get legal experience through the PMF program. Every fed govt agency has a GC's office. Not only that, you can work at any USAO's office in the country (including Puerto Rico, and U.S. territories). You can also work for state/local govt or non-profits too, but have to get conflict checked first to ensure the entity's work will not conflict with fed govt. Basically, you can offer your legal services for free as part of PMF rotation for a number of months and you'd be hard pressed for an agency to turn you down.

A buddy of mine did AUSA in DC for 6 months in the civil litigation division as a PMF. I know of several PMFs who have done a rotation at their own agency's GC for a few months. And have heard of others who have done USAO at regional offices around the country. I have a legal rotation scheduled at one of my agency's regional offices. I was discussing the possibility of an overseas legal rotation at a different agency and the agency seemed open to it, but I withdrew after my domestic rotation became available. Depends on your interests, flexibility, and the office involved. That's probably the easiest route to get actual practice experience that requires bar passage. This experience can lead to full-time legal positions down the road. PMF is certainly not ideal if practicing law full-time is the ultimate goal, but the perfect is the enemy of the good.




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