W&C or Kirkland (DC)

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Anonymous User
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W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:53 am

There is no doubt I want litigation. I know Kirkland has above market bonuses and W&C has higher salary and no bonuses.

I am interested in the comparative quality of life (hours, culture etc) and overall compensation (does W&C's higher salary fall short of Kirkland's total comp?).

bdubs
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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby bdubs » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:06 pm

Do you want to do white collar? W&C seems like the obvious choice for lifestyle, but the work will probably be different than K&E. Think about what kind of lit you want to do. If you don't care that much about the specific type then W&C is the way to go.

KidStuddi
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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby KidStuddi » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:56 pm

OP, you should probably be able to answer your own questions regarding QoL (especially "culture") after doing callbacks at both firms. If you didn't see enough while you were there to make your decision, just go back and visit again.

The associates at W&C told me they bill more hours (i heard 2400-2600 from associates) than Kirkland associates (mostly around 2100), but FWIW the W&C associates I met seemed happier.

You should also keep in mind that your chances of making partner at W&C are dramatically higher than they are at Kirkland.

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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:02 pm

OP here.

Thanks a lot for the input. I liked everyone I met at both firms.

The comment above about the hours comparison is surprising. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information about this. I keep hearing about Kirkland's "sweatshop" mentality and W&C's #1 Best Place to Work ranking. It also seems like the bonus structure at K&E might incentivize more hours than the fixed comp at W&C. Does anyone else have any experience, insight on the hour requirements, expectations, and norms?

Thanks.

Pokemon
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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby Pokemon » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:16 pm

W&C, unless by that you mean White & Case. :lol:

KidStuddi
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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby KidStuddi » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The comment above about the hours comparison is surprising. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information about this. I keep hearing about Kirkland's "sweatshop" mentality and W&C's #1 Best Place to Work ranking. It also seems like the bonus structure at K&E might incentivize more hours than the fixed comp at W&C. Does anyone else have any experience, insight on the hour requirements, expectations, and norms?

Thanks.


I don't think there's much conflicting information on this. Where have you ever heard that associates at W&C don't bust their asses? I think your confusion comes from conflating being a great place to work with having to work a lot work to do. Vault even has a separate ranking specifically for hours, and you'll notice that W&C is not mentioned on that list.

W&C builds a lot of loyalty and morale with theirs perks (a free quality healthy lunch is worth easily a couple thousand dollars a year) and by providing real opportunities for advancement. They're way, way less leveraged than a firm like Kirkland and that almost necessarily means associates get substantive work earlier in their careers. It also means partners can't get away with abusing associates because there's not an endless pool of associates to go through. Things like that contribute a lot to the general happiness of their associates.

I also disagree about your take on the bonus structure. I think it actually works the other way. At Kirkland, if you don't meet your hours you're worried that you won't get a great bonus. If you don't meet them at W&C you're worried that you're going to be fired. Which one is really more motivating?

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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:29 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The comment above about the hours comparison is surprising. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information about this. I keep hearing about Kirkland's "sweatshop" mentality and W&C's #1 Best Place to Work ranking. It also seems like the bonus structure at K&E might incentivize more hours than the fixed comp at W&C. Does anyone else have any experience, insight on the hour requirements, expectations, and norms?

Thanks.


I don't think there's much conflicting information on this. Where have you ever heard that associates at W&C don't bust their asses? I think your confusion comes from conflating being a great place to work with having to work a lot work to do. Vault even has a separate ranking specifically for hours, and you'll notice that W&C is not mentioned on that list.

W&C builds a lot of loyalty and morale with theirs perks (a free quality healthy lunch is worth easily a couple thousand dollars a year) and by providing real opportunities for advancement. They're way, way less leveraged than a firm like Kirkland and that almost necessarily means associates get substantive work earlier in their careers. It also means partners can't get away with abusing associates because there's not an endless pool of associates to go through. Things like that contribute a lot to the general happiness of their associates.

I also disagree about your take on the bonus structure. I think it actually works the other way. At Kirkland, if you don't meet your hours you're worried that you won't get a great bonus. If you don't meet them at W&C you're worried that you're going to be fired. Which one is really more motivating?


That's helpful. Thanks.

Can anyone else chime in on whether the hours estimates above are accurate (2100 at K&E vs. 24-2600 at W&C)?

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Bronte
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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby Bronte » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:11 pm

KidStuddi wrote:They're way, way less leveraged than a firm like Kirkland and that almost necessarily means associates get substantive work earlier in their careers.


Are you sure? Kirkland's leverage in DC looks to be just over one-to-one.

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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:29 pm

Bronte wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:They're way, way less leveraged than a firm like Kirkland and that almost necessarily means associates get substantive work earlier in their careers.


Are you sure? Kirkland's leverage in DC looks to be just over one-to-one.


Not accurate, since the calculation counts non-equity partners as partners. Then again, the firm does often treat NSPs as SPs in terms of respnsibilties...

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rayiner
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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby rayiner » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Bronte wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:They're way, way less leveraged than a firm like Kirkland and that almost necessarily means associates get substantive work earlier in their careers.


Are you sure? Kirkland's leverage in DC looks to be just over one-to-one.


Not accurate, since the calculation counts non-equity partners as partners. Then again, the firm does often treat NSPs as SPs in terms of respnsibilties...


I'd go with W&C, but I don't think the NSP versus SP distinction is relevant to this specific point. I don't think a junior partner at W&C is going to get more responsibility than an NSP at K&E. Nor are they going to get paid anymore, since W&C has a very wide spread. I think they have more job security, though, since there is a a semi-formal NSP up-or-out track at K&E for years 7-10.

newbienew
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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby newbienew » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:59 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The comment above about the hours comparison is surprising. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information about this. I keep hearing about Kirkland's "sweatshop" mentality and W&C's #1 Best Place to Work ranking. It also seems like the bonus structure at K&E might incentivize more hours than the fixed comp at W&C. Does anyone else have any experience, insight on the hour requirements, expectations, and norms?

Thanks.


I don't think there's much conflicting information on this. Where have you ever heard that associates at W&C don't bust their asses? I think your confusion comes from conflating being a great place to work with having to work a lot work to do. Vault even has a separate ranking specifically for hours, and you'll notice that W&C is not mentioned on that list.


W&C is actually 5th on the "Best Hours" list to which you linked. Check it out yourself.

Anonymous User
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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:15 pm

newbienew wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The comment above about the hours comparison is surprising. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information about this. I keep hearing about Kirkland's "sweatshop" mentality and W&C's #1 Best Place to Work ranking. It also seems like the bonus structure at K&E might incentivize more hours than the fixed comp at W&C. Does anyone else have any experience, insight on the hour requirements, expectations, and norms?

Thanks.


I don't think there's much conflicting information on this. Where have you ever heard that associates at W&C don't bust their asses? I think your confusion comes from conflating being a great place to work with having to work a lot work to do. Vault even has a separate ranking specifically for hours, and you'll notice that W&C is not mentioned on that list.


W&C is actually 5th on the "Best Hours" list to which you linked. Check it out yourself.


OP here. That's an excellent observation and doesn't seem at all consistent with W&C associates billing 24-2600 hours.

abcgu09
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Re: W&C or Kirkland (DC)

Postby abcgu09 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:34 am

OP, PM me.




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