Lying about landing big law?

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delusional
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby delusional » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:29 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Do you also ask your classmates what their grades were? Cause that is a polite interest in their future career potential. Not asking them would be akin to showing them grace cause you are assuming they did not do too well.

As someone who struck out, it is absolutely not a source of shame. I have reached out for advice to many older students, and students in my year who I consider close friends. But, I get annoyed when a person who I do not know too well, makes that their first question... and they do it quite often.

Striking out is often an unfortunate turn of events for a student. It is worse to strike out, than to be at the very bottom of the class and get a job. There are students who get depressed about it... so yes, it is a territory that you must be careful around. In the same way that you must be careful with grades during 1L.


I don't think your analogy is apt. First of all, we're talking about social conventions here. Grades are much more personal than where you work or just about anything else. Even on the most public stage imaginable we often don't see grades. Have you ever seen Obama's or Romney's transcripts from HLS? They're running for president and we've seen their tax returns (well some of them) and birth certificates before we've gotten a peak at their grades. That's not even close to being as socially acceptable as talking about work experience.

Just look how many splatter their job information across LinkedIn and other professional sites.

Yes, striking out may suck if you're BigLaw or bust, but it doesn't change the fact that asking people about their career plans remains a perfectly acceptable thing to do in polite conversation.

I have a friend who's from the south and is self-conscious about her accent. She gets furious when people ask her where she's from. Does that make them assholes for asking a socially acceptable question?

You guys remind me of egg-shell plaintiffs from torts.
FWIW, we've seen Kagan's grades.

HeavenWood
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:31 pm

IAFG wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Your friend's a cunt, although regardless of her reaction, jobs are generally way too touchy a subject to make for good "small talk."


Yes, the friend's reaction makes them a cunt, but what planet are you from where work isn't an acceptable topic for small talk? Work is like the second or third thing you ask someone when you meet them. After "What's your name" and "Where are you from," you ask people what they do / where they work.
Not to mention you can't go 2 feet in law school without someone screaming at you to "network." How can you network with people without finding out what they're going to be doing?
It might be embarrassing if you don't have a good answer, but it's definitely not a faux pas to ask.

No it is not a faux pas to ask what someone does over casual conversation. But it's absolutely a faux pas to ask where someone will be this summer unless you somehow know for sure they didn't strike out. I would have thought this wasn't even a particularly contentious point, but I guess there is always an asshole.

This. I congratulated a couple people I'm on friendly terms with when I heard they had offers, and the ensuing conversation was generally very brief. If you feel comfortable talking in detail about things like jobs and grades with more than a handful of people, you're way too open a book.

Anonymous User
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:33 pm

I kinda look at it like the kids who talked about specific questions after the test. Yeah we all went through it and some people probably did better than others but most of the people who asked pretty much just do it for some kind of self assurance. At my school it seems like this was like the hot question for a week and then no one cared. Its something that were I go to school kinda sucks for, ie if enough people are asking something then even though it seems really uncool everyone just starts asking it.

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wiseowl
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby wiseowl » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:35 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:What? How would you ever know for sure without asking someone? Gossiping about people behind their back isn't really my style and seems far less socially acceptable than asking someone what their career plans are.
It seems awfully pretentious to assume that everyone who didn't land BigLaw is going to be embarrassed to talk about what they're doing 2L summer / what their career plans are. But I guess there are always assholes who'd rather pity everyone who doesn't make as much money as they do.

Or, you know, you could mind your own business about the subject entirely.


Sounds like a good way to network. Keep your head down and never give a fuck about anyone else.
And all those assholes who carry around business cards telling people where they work? Who the fuck do they think they are broadcasting it to the world like anyone cares?


Why are you incapable of separating people in the working world and 2Ls?

There is zero need to "network" in a serious sense with your current classmates. It's called getting a beer and hanging out and being a normal person and not talking about your prestige or lack there of all the damn time.

You must be a riot at parties.

HeavenWood
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I kinda look at it like the kids who talked about specific questions after the test. Yeah we all went through it and some people probably did better than others but most of the people who asked pretty much just do it for some kind of self assurance. At my school it seems like this was like the hot question for a week and then no one cared. Its something that were I go to school kinda sucks for, ie if enough people are asking something then even though it seems really uncool everyone just starts asking it.

Seeking self-assurance after an exam would be far more analogous to seeking self-assurance after a screener or callback, since you don't know what the result is yet.

KidStuddi
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby KidStuddi » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:I'm not ignoring a social convention, I'm telling you what the social convention is. People talk about where they work and what they do.
I have been asked the question by at least two dozen people this fall. Including three of my professors from 1L. Are they all assholes for showing a polite interest in what I'll be doing with my life?
This is an absurd conversation.

Edit: I called you pretentious because you think you're doing them a favor by not asking them the question. And you clearly affirmed that. You actually think you're showing "grace" by not asking them a question because you're presuming they're going to be embarrassed by the answer. This is the logical equivalent of not asking someone where they're going to law school because you're not 100% sure they got into a t14 school. Believe it or not, this isn't a source of shame for everybody.


Do you also ask your classmates what their grades were? Cause that is a polite interest in their future career potential. Not asking them would be akin to showing them grace cause you are assuming they did not do too well.

As someone who struck out, it is absolutely not a source of shame. I have reached out for advice to many older students, and students in my year who I consider close friends. But, I get annoyed when a person who I do not know too well, makes that their first question... and they do it quite often.

Striking out is often an unfortunate turn of events for a student. It is worse to strike out, than to be at the very bottom of the class and get a job. There are students who get depressed about it... so yes, it is a territory that you must be careful around. In the same way that you must be careful with grades during 1L.

PS: your point about not asking which law school to go to because you know they are not at a t-14 also makes 0 sense imho. A student chooses to go to BC, Brooklyn, Temple, Hastings, Cooley or whatever non-T14 school out there. That is something that they can be proud of. They have the choice of not attending school all together. I did not choose to strike out. Strike out is not a second option like a lower ranked school might be to some people.


Uh, you do know that striking out at OCI isn't the end of all legal employment ever, right? The question isn't "how many offers did you get out of OCI," it's "Have plans for next summer?" Unless you drop out of law school, you're going to be doing something next summer, even if it is your second option.

Anonymous User
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:42 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:I'm not ignoring a social convention, I'm telling you what the social convention is. People talk about where they work and what they do.
I have been asked the question by at least two dozen people this fall. Including three of my professors from 1L. Are they all assholes for showing a polite interest in what I'll be doing with my life?
This is an absurd conversation.

Edit: I called you pretentious because you think you're doing them a favor by not asking them the question. And you clearly affirmed that. You actually think you're showing "grace" by not asking them a question because you're presuming they're going to be embarrassed by the answer. This is the logical equivalent of not asking someone where they're going to law school because you're not 100% sure they got into a t14 school. Believe it or not, this isn't a source of shame for everybody.


Do you also ask your classmates what their grades were? Cause that is a polite interest in their future career potential. Not asking them would be akin to showing them grace cause you are assuming they did not do too well.

As someone who struck out, it is absolutely not a source of shame. I have reached out for advice to many older students, and students in my year who I consider close friends. But, I get annoyed when a person who I do not know too well, makes that their first question... and they do it quite often.

Striking out is often an unfortunate turn of events for a student. It is worse to strike out, than to be at the very bottom of the class and get a job. There are students who get depressed about it... so yes, it is a territory that you must be careful around. In the same way that you must be careful with grades during 1L.

PS: your point about not asking which law school to go to because you know they are not at a t-14 also makes 0 sense imho. A student chooses to go to BC, Brooklyn, Temple, Hastings, Cooley or whatever non-T14 school out there. That is something that they can be proud of. They have the choice of not attending school all together. I did not choose to strike out. Strike out is not a second option like a lower ranked school might be to some people.


Uh, you do know that striking out at OCI isn't the end of all legal employment ever, right? The question isn't "how many offers did you get out of OCI," it's "Have plans for next summer?" Unless you drop out of law school, you're going to be doing something next summer, even if it is your second option.


people not working at large law firms will have no idea where they are working next summer, the hiring schedule is completely different.

igo2northwestern
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby igo2northwestern » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:42 pm

KidStuddi wrote:Have you ever seen Obama's or Romney's transcripts from HLS? They're running for president and we've seen their tax returns (well some of them) and birth certificates before we've gotten a peek at their grades. That's not even close to being as socially acceptable as talking about work experience.

don't know if this helps, but..
We do know that Obama graduated ~top10% (magna) from HLS, and Romney graduated top 1/3 (cum laude) from HLS & top5% (baker) from HBS

keg411
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby keg411 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:43 pm

Right now pretty much anyone who has something lined up got it through OCI/is working in BigLawl. So it's the equivalent of "DID YOU GET A SA?!".

Look, it's an awkward question, and the "are you going back?" 3L question is just as awkward. But people do it anyway, and law students are pretty much all awkward as fuck about everything, so whatever.

KidStuddi
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby KidStuddi » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:45 pm

wiseowl wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Or, you know, you could mind your own business about the subject entirely.


Sounds like a good way to network. Keep your head down and never give a fuck about anyone else.
And all those assholes who carry around business cards telling people where they work? Who the fuck do they think they are broadcasting it to the world like anyone cares?


Why are you incapable of separating people in the working world and 2Ls?

There is zero need to "network" in a serious sense with your current classmates. It's called getting a beer and hanging out and being a normal person and not talking about your prestige or lack there of all the damn time.

You must be a riot at parties.


Why do you think 2Ls are some special subspecies of humans with tissue paper egos?
Talking about my prestige? What? I'm about the furthest thing from a prestige whore there is. This is about being an approachable human being who doesn't hate people who ask them questions.

KidStuddi
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby KidStuddi » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
Uh, you do know that striking out at OCI isn't the end of all legal employment ever, right? The question isn't "how many offers did you get out of OCI," it's "Have plans for next summer?" Unless you drop out of law school, you're going to be doing something next summer, even if it is your second option.


people not working at large law firms will have no idea where they are working next summer, the hiring schedule is completely different.


I know three people who have lined up jobs in small (<20 attorney local firms and two who have jobs lined up in PI organizations for next summer.
You see how much you can learn when you aren't afraid to talk about jobs?

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dr123
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby dr123 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:52 pm

Seems kinda odd to ask about summer plans in October, IMO

HeavenWood
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:52 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
Uh, you do know that striking out at OCI isn't the end of all legal employment ever, right? The question isn't "how many offers did you get out of OCI," it's "Have plans for next summer?" Unless you drop out of law school, you're going to be doing something next summer, even if it is your second option.


people not working at large law firms will have no idea where they are working next summer, the hiring schedule is completely different.


I know three people who have lined up jobs in small (<20 attorney local firms and two who have jobs lined up in PI organizations for next summer.
You see how much you can learn when you aren't afraid to talk about jobs?

Why do you place so much stake in what other people are doing?

09042014
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:05 pm

dr123 wrote:Seems kinda odd to ask about summer plans in October, IMO


Yep. It's less weird if you ask in June or after summer ends.

But it's not at all like networking IRL. Because IRL you aren't competing with them for jobs. It's more like asking what do you do, at a job fair.

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IAFG
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:06 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
IAFG wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:What? How would you ever know for sure without asking someone? Gossiping about people behind their back isn't really my style and seems far less socially acceptable than asking someone what their career plans are.
It seems awfully pretentious to assume that everyone who didn't land BigLaw is going to be embarrassed to talk about what they're doing 2L summer / what their career plans are. But I guess there are always assholes who'd rather pity everyone who doesn't make as much money as they do.

Well, I knew for sure my friend didn't strike out because I knew she had at least one offer. Fine to ask where she ended up.

The rest of your post was beyond stupid. I must pity people who make less than me? Why, because I have enough grace not to corner them about what might have been a failed attempt to get a certain kind of job? It doesn't really matter what I think about asking though. I don't decide what the faux pas are, convention does, and ignoring it because you have some idiotic rationalization is what makes you an asshole.


I'm not ignoring a social convention, I'm telling you what the social convention is. People talk about where they work and what they do.
I have been asked the question by at least two dozen people this fall. Including three of my professors from 1L. Are they all assholes for showing a polite interest in what I'll be doing with my life?
This is an absurd conversation.

Edit: I called you pretentious because you think you're doing them a favor by not asking them the question. And you clearly affirmed that. You actually think you're showing "grace" by not asking them a question because you're presuming they're going to be embarrassed by the answer. This is the logical equivalent of not asking someone where they're going to law school because you're not 100% sure they got into a t14 school. Believe it or not, this isn't a source of shame for everybody.

And I am telling you that you are mistaken about what the social convention is.

People touch my pregnant belly without asking. Their action does not establish a new social convention about belly rubbing.

Professors are a different matter obviously. For one thing, they may be able to help you if your outcome was bad. But more importantly, they are not your peer.

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beachbum
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby beachbum » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:09 pm

wiseowl wrote:Why are you incapable of separating people in the working world and 2Ls?

There is zero need to "network" in a serious sense with your current classmates. It's called getting a beer and hanging out and being a normal person and not talking about your prestige or lack there of all the damn time.

You must be a riot at parties.


Yessir. This KidStuddi dude is awkward/nosy as fuck, and is the reason why law schools need to start offering classes on how to function in basic social situations. Finding out someone's summer plans is not the magical key to "networking." Broaching the subject out of the blue is not ok, particularly around this time when kids are striking out/losing sleep over their lack of job success. And "networking" with classmates is completely unnecessary and more than a little weird. Just relax, dude. It's like you're trying to gun social interaction.

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jessuf
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby jessuf » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:17 pm

I struck out at OCI and am doing govt instead next summer. Only 1 person asked, and it was embarrassing to talk about. However, I found people are more prone to talking about their offers than asking others about theirs.

Anonymous User
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:19 pm

beachbum wrote:
wiseowl wrote:Why are you incapable of separating people in the working world and 2Ls?

There is zero need to "network" in a serious sense with your current classmates. It's called getting a beer and hanging out and being a normal person and not talking about your prestige or lack there of all the damn time.

You must be a riot at parties.


Yessir. This KidStuddi dude is awkward/nosy as fuck, and is the reason why law schools need to start offering classes on how to function in basic social situations. Finding out someone's summer plans is not the magical key to "networking." Broaching the subject out of the blue is not ok, particularly around this time when kids are striking out/losing sleep over their lack of job success. And "networking" with classmates is completely unnecessary and more than a little weird. Just relax, dude. It's like you're trying to gun social interaction.


I'm pretty sure the KidStuddi type is the reason that people have to lie about landing biglaw in the first place.

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IAFG
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby IAFG » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I'm pretty sure the KidStuddi type is the reason that people have to lie about landing biglaw in the first place.

Good job bringing it full circle.
Last edited by IAFG on Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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presh
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby presh » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:28 pm

.
Last edited by presh on Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jessuf
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby jessuf » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:31 pm

presh wrote:
Jessuf wrote:I struck out at OCI and am doing govt instead next summer. Only 1 person asked, and it was embarrassing to talk about. However, I found people are more prone to talking about their offers than asking others about theirs.


Why? Govt is hard as fuck to get right now.

I just meant embarrassed to talk about striking out (this was before my govt offer).

Anonymous User
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:41 pm

beachbum wrote:
Yessir. This KidStuddi dude is awkward/nosy as fuck, and is the reason why law schools need to start offering classes on how to function in basic social situations.


If this class were graded and offered for credit, I would gladly take it. It pisses me off how many useless classes I have to take and I still have two more years of this. If I'm wasting my time anyway, might as well learn something useful.

09042014
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:55 pm

presh wrote:
Jessuf wrote:I struck out at OCI and am doing govt instead next summer. Only 1 person asked, and it was embarrassing to talk about. However, I found people are more prone to talking about their offers than asking others about theirs.


Why? Govt is hard as fuck to get right now.


Even for people who did their 2L summer there.

shock259
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby shock259 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I'm pretty sure the KidStuddi type is the reason that people have to lie about landing biglaw in the first place.


/thread

Anonymous User
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
beachbum wrote:
Yessir. This KidStuddi dude is awkward/nosy as fuck, and is the reason why law schools need to start offering classes on how to function in basic social situations.


If this class were graded and offered for credit, I would gladly take it. It pisses me off how many useless classes I have to take and I still have two more years of this. If I'm wasting my time anyway, might as well learn something useful.


Law schools should require an alum interview in a field of the applicant's choice (or select from among 3: PI, private practice, or government) as a gateway to admission. The school could award interviews to 200% of those they plan to admit. I think Northwestern does something similar already, and they punch way above their weight in employment placement, despite the disadvantage of being in Chicago.




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