Lying about landing big law?

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09042014
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:37 pm

lol at engineers

portaprokoss
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby portaprokoss » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:37 pm

Discussing religion, politics, or *work* is rude, unless you're among close friends.

That being said, lying under pressure and lying to save face are shady characteristics, especially in an aspiring lawyer.

uvabro
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby uvabro » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:42 pm

Regarding LSAT score and big law, I'd make the argument that it this site is unrepresentative so I do buy it, the former even more so. About 1/2 of people that take the LSAT don't study more than a couple of weeks. Nobody talks about the LSAT in their free time in online forums if they're not serious about the LSAT. Jerbs are less of a if study -> prob a good score kind of thing.

Pokemon
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby Pokemon » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:25 pm

No point to lying about LSAT score on an anonymous forum unless you want to be a flame.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:33 pm

On the thread topic: lying seems like a bad idea. Down the road I think a lot of ppl who didn't get big law will end up being grateful when they realize what a crappy lifestyle it tends to be.

On the debate of what to ask and what not to ask: context matters. If you know someone and have a history of discussing jobs, applications, and interviews with them I think it is perfectly appropriate to ask how things have worked out, even if it ends up being uncomfortable for the other person if things didn't work out as hoped. But tact is needed, and obviously people disagree on appropriate lines.

I don't think there is a simple right/wrong way to handle this stuff, except perhaps at the extremes (e.g. lying about jobs or bragging to someone you don't know at all--who may have struck out--how awesome it is that you got a job and that it was because how well you interview etc). For instance, I think at least one of the ppl ITT most vocal about being polite to the point of never asking anyone about job outcomes has posted plenty on this site making it obvious that he/she got an SA and follow-up offer (IIRC), including starting threads that probably make people without offers less than comfortable.

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IAFG
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby IAFG » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:48 pm

Lawquacious wrote:On the thread topic: lying seems like a bad idea. Down the road I think a lot of ppl who didn't get big law will end up being grateful when they realize what a crappy lifestyle it tends to be.

On the debate of what to ask and what not to ask: context matters. If you know someone and have a history of discussing jobs, applications, and interviews with them I think it is perfectly appropriate to ask how things have worked out, even if it ends up being uncomfortable for the other person if things didn't work out as hoped. But tact is needed, and obviously people disagree on appropriate lines.

I don't think there is a simple right/wrong way to handle this stuff, except perhaps at the extremes (e.g. lying about jobs or bragging to someone you don't know at all--who may have struck out--how awesome it is that you got a job and that it was because how well you interview etc). For instance, I think at least one of the ppl ITT most vocal about being polite to the point of never asking anyone about job outcomes has posted plenty on this site making it obvious that he/she got an SA and follow-up offer (IIRC), including starting threads that probably make people without offers less than comfortable.

If you're still on about this shit I guess you never read the follow up.

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby uvabro » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:29 pm

I don't think it's a maturity thing, as much as it's a dishonesty thing. i guess it depends how you define maturity, but lying isn't really related to maturity. i don't think you'll define jerry sandusky as immature. you'd probably label him as a dishonest pedophile.

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:16 pm

uvabro wrote:I don't think it's a maturity thing, as much as it's a dishonesty thing. i guess it depends how you define maturity, but lying isn't really related to maturity. i don't think you'll define jerry sandusky as immature. you'd probably label him as a dishonest pedophile.



Dishonest? Not really, no one should have to reveal their work info. The way that the law school dynamic is built however, refusal to disclose often equates with NO SA in people's mind.
Immature, yes, cause it shows serious self-esteem issues. In the students defense however, law school students tend to be prone to gossip and asking inappropriate questions, and while I do not do it, you can see why someone would lie. Twice I have been asked in very public environments about where I am SAing even though those people do not know my grades or have built a close enough rapport with me to be asking such questions. Among friends however with you have shared info. in the past, I expected the question or even told them about my frustration before they asked.

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby jcojd » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:21 pm

r6_philly wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:This. I congratulated a couple people I'm on friendly terms with when I heard they had offers, and the ensuing conversation was generally very brief. If you feel comfortable talking in detail about things like jobs and grades with more than a handful of people, you're way too open a book.


so I am both an ass and an open book? :wink:

I asked everyone I recognize where they are going, I suppose I just don't know any manners!


it doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you an asshole


But that would be very far from the truth. Just goes to show these categorical statements don't work.


Edited at third party's request
Last edited by jcojd on Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:01 pm

jcojd wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:
r6_philly wrote:so I am both an ass and an open book? :wink:

I asked everyone I recognize where they are going, I suppose I just don't know any manners!


it doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you an asshole


But that would be very far from the truth. Just goes to show these categorical statements don't work.


Actually, a lot of your peers would disagree with you on that.

Image

uvabro
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby uvabro » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
uvabro wrote:I don't think it's a maturity thing, as much as it's a dishonesty thing. i guess it depends how you define maturity, but lying isn't really related to maturity. i don't think you'll define jerry sandusky as immature. you'd probably label him as a dishonest pedophile.



Dishonest? Not really, no one should have to reveal their work info. The way that the law school dynamic is built however, refusal to disclose often equates with NO SA in people's mind.
Immature, yes, cause it shows serious self-esteem issues. In the students defense however, law school students tend to be prone to gossip and asking inappropriate questions, and while I do not do it, you can see why someone would lie. Twice I have been asked in very public environments about where I am SAing even though those people do not know my grades or have built a close enough rapport with me to be asking such questions. Among friends however with you have shared info. in the past, I expected the question or even told them about my frustration before they asked.

i think it's a syntax thing, but maturity and security are separate things in my opinion.

it's tough to say if it's inappropriate to ask these questions. there's a line between friendship and the professional dynamic of law school. if people take care of each other when they're drunk and discuss dating details, it's not that inappropriate to ask about their jerbs. context is really a big deal. i'm a 1l, but it would be very wrong in my opinion to ask only because u want to show off about your gig and very different than asking because you're interested in your friend's career.

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:42 pm

.

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:45 pm

Sometimes, asking about jobs is the "law school" version of small talk. When you can't think of anything better to say, people alternate between "So what did you think of that Baylor game last night?" and "so where did you end up this summer?"

Of course, as someone who struck out, I am probably not going to initiate these conversations, although I might be more open to talking about jobs now that I landed a good one. But I certainly understand where they're coming from. I was never offended when people asked. Yes, of course, it might be rude to ask things like this to a stranger on the street. However, law school is its own culture, and this is pretty widely accepted form of small talk in the law school context. Social norms are not determined by logic - but by majority consensus, and at least in the law school context, the majority has determined that these types of questions are socially acceptable while, perhaps, talking about Law Review and grades are not.

On the other hand, only 1/3rd get big law at my school, so the social dynamic might be different at a place like Cornell or Penn where people just go there to do big law and where the firm hiring timeline is stricter (hell, we have a "spring OCI" where a lot of big firms recruit 2L's in March). At my school, there are people on law review still looking for jobs as 3L's, including one who just accepted a position with the NYC DA's office. Not all legal jobs operate on the same timeline.

At least one of the posters pushing the "it's always rude" line goes to Northwestern where just about everybody is there to make money in big law. What's rude at Northwestern is not necessarily rude at Stanford. Hell, World Bank and IMF applications don't open for another month. I'm sure there are definitely top students "still looking" at Stanford, and it's not rude to ask ... "so what are your plans for next summer?" when you're trying to decide between the State Department, FTC Honors, and the IMF.

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cinephile
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby cinephile » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:02 pm

uvabro wrote:I don't think it's a maturity thing, as much as it's a dishonesty thing. i guess it depends how you define maturity, but lying isn't really related to maturity. i don't think you'll define jerry sandusky as immature. you'd probably label him as a dishonest pedophile.


It's pretty shocking that you equate lying to your peers about about a job with being a pedophile.

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presh
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby presh » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:09 pm

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Last edited by presh on Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:18 pm

Not sure why the discussion continues. The dynamic in September-December at a T-14 is as follows. 2/3 get an offer and they are very, very happy. 1/3 do not get an offer and they are very unhappy.

Now imagine I invite you to a party, and I tell you that there are going to be 9 people at this party. I also tell you that 6 of them are making six figures and living the fancy life in NYC, while 3 of them are heavily indebted, unemployed and maybe slightly depressed.

Do you go and ask people at such a party what they are doing? I would hope not.


Sure, things change at Yale because maybe the likelihood of coming across that unlucky soul is so low. Or at a lower-ranked school because getting BigLaw is a surprise and you expect the I do not know, but in places where the split is 1/2 and 1/2 or something close to that, it is uncomfortable and against social conventions to ask about it, unless you know them well.

At a minimum, law school students can probe; Example, you might say that you will be in X city, wait if the other party says with a BIG smile: oh awesome, I will be in Y city. Then, you have probed a little bit and can ask. But not, hey X, what you doin this summer?
My interest in sociology is spilling out of me, but basically, knowing that 1/3 or 1/2 is very unhappy, you want to give the other party the opportunity to be vague or not disclose without making them sound weird. IF you ask directly, then they either must admit, tell a lie, or sound weird in an attempt to be vague...

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20160810
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby 20160810 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:10 pm

I know a few people who struck out at OCI but fibbed about turning down gets to pursue their lifelong passion for public interest work. It's a weird profession

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby dresden doll » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:32 pm

This thread reminds me of why I detest people who feverishly ask other people how they did at OCI under the guise of 'we're friends, I just want to know how you're doing!'. I'm not justifying lying, but it's that kind of mentality which encourages people to feel ashamed and fib about their summer employment.

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby dresden doll » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:39 pm

uvabro wrote:I don't think it's a maturity thing, as much as it's a dishonesty thing. i guess it depends how you define maturity, but lying isn't really related to maturity. i don't think you'll define jerry sandusky as immature. you'd probably label him as a dishonest pedophile.


[/quote]

Part of being mature is not pressing people for info that's none of your business in the first place. Honesty usually counts in the context of a situation where, for whatever reason, you owe it to whoever you're dealing with to be forthright.

Lying about employment is stupid but I can hardly see it as unethical when the fact of the matter is that your classmates don't owe it to you to tell you where they're working.

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby jcojd » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:05 pm

dresden doll wrote:This thread reminds me of why I detest people who feverishly ask other people how they did at OCI under the guise of 'we're friends, I just want to know how you're doing!'. I'm not justifying lying, but it's that kind of mentality which encourages people to feel ashamed and fib about their summer employment.


This, completely. I think if it were in the context of good friends talking and employment came up in a natural way, people would not be so inclined to lie. I also think it has to do with the environment of law school overall - there are a lot of people that gossip, and unemployment inevitably becomes part of that. I don't necessarily think lying about employment is the right thing to do, but after going through OCI - which turns some really decent people into people on a "must avoid" list, I can understand why some people do lie.

Also, I personally never ask someone what they're doing unless they have offered to me in conversation that they have at one offer - and then I really only ask people I'm well acquainted with, in a "have you decided?" kind of way.

09042014
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:39 pm

dresden doll wrote:
uvabro wrote:I don't think it's a maturity thing, as much as it's a dishonesty thing. i guess it depends how you define maturity, but lying isn't really related to maturity. i don't think you'll define jerry sandusky as immature. you'd probably label him as a dishonest pedophile.




Part of being mature is not pressing people for info that's none of your business in the first place. Honesty usually counts in the context of a situation where, for whatever reason, you owe it to whoever you're dealing with to be forthright.

Lying about employment is stupid but I can hardly see it as unethical when the fact of the matter is that your classmates don't owe it to you to tell you where they're working.


Yep, you have no right to honesty in a response to a question you have no right to ask.

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby IAFG » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:03 am

dresden doll wrote:This thread reminds me of why I detest people who feverishly ask other people how they did at OCI under the guise of 'we're friends, I just want to know how you're doing!'. I'm not justifying lying, but it's that kind of mentality which encourages people to feel ashamed and fib about their summer employment.

Real friends are happy for each other.

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby quiver » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:08 pm

romothesavior wrote:I see both sides of this discussion. On the one hand, jobs are obviously a very sensitive, very stressful situation for a lot of law students ITE, and people should tread lightly when talking about jerbs. But at the same time, work is one of the most basic and common topics to discuss in a conversation in general, so it is bound to come up. To draw this categorical rule that you're just an asshole to even talk to someone about jobs is way too touchy.

Like most sensitive topics in life, its all about context. Prying with people right after OCI is bad form, but I think asking someone in the spring "What are you doing this summer?" is pretty standard. It was also a very common question after people got back in the fall of 3L year (i.e., "How was your summer?" ---> "Where were you at?") There's also a real difference between asking it in a "Where are you working this summer so that I can judge your worth as a law student?" way vs. asking the "What are you up to this summer?" question because you're a normal person having a normal conversation and genuinely interested in the other person.
Completely agree with this.

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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby slider » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:21 pm

8)
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uvabro
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Re: Lying about landing big law?

Postby uvabro » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:02 pm

It is dishonest. I just wouldn't say anything personally. I also wouldn't ask my friends how they did esp if I had a big law job. I asked some 2l and 3l's about it because I was legitimately curious about how the stuff worked when I started. When I saw the question greatly offended 1 person I asked, I realized it was a personal thing. I just asked how OCI was going, and he looked deadpan at me and said, "Terrible. Thank you for bringing that up". I wasn't actually interested in how he did. I just wanted to know how the process works.




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