Richmond VA Legal Market

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Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:21 pm

How is it?

Typical salaries for associates in years 1 through 5?

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How is it?

Typical salaries for associates in years 1 through 5?


They like UVa/W&L/W&M/T14. I'm pretty sure starting salaries are ~110. Big firms are McGuireWoods, LeClair Ryan, Williams Mullen, Hunton & Williams, and Troutman Sanders. I haven't heard that the workload is suffocating or anything like that.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby 005618502 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How is it?

Typical salaries for associates in years 1 through 5?


They like UVa/W&L/W&M/T14. I'm pretty sure starting salaries are ~110. Big firms are McGuireWoods, LeClair Ryan, Williams Mullen, Hunton & Williams, and Troutman Sanders. I haven't heard that the workload is suffocating or anything like that.


Hard to get for UVA students who do not have ties to Richmond or even VA (besides school)?

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:57 pm

richmond firms want strong ties

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:01 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How is it?

Typical salaries for associates in years 1 through 5?


They like UVa/W&L/W&M/T14. I'm pretty sure starting salaries are ~110. Big firms are McGuireWoods, LeClair Ryan, Williams Mullen, Hunton & Williams, and Troutman Sanders. I haven't heard that the workload is suffocating or anything like that.


Hard to get for UVA students who do not have ties to Richmond or even VA (besides school)?


(poster from first response) My friends who have worked for the firms I mentioned are 50/50 students with Richmond ties and students that go to VA schools with no Richmond (or Virginia) ties.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How is it?

Typical salaries for associates in years 1 through 5?


They like UVa/W&L/W&M/T14. I'm pretty sure starting salaries are ~110. Big firms are McGuireWoods, LeClair Ryan, Williams Mullen, Hunton & Williams, and Troutman Sanders. I haven't heard that the workload is suffocating or anything like that.


Hunton and McGuireWoods are $145k starting. I've heard that Hunton is 2000+ billables/year.

Troutman is $135k starting. Williams Mullen is $115k. No idea about LeClair. Sizeable mid-law firms include Hirschler Fleischer and Christian & Barton.

From what I have heard, it tends to be a somewhat insular market. That said, I know non-Virginians who have gotten jobs with Hunton and McGuireWoods.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:09 pm

What is considered to be the "top" or most "prestigious" firm? McGuire Woods? Hunton? Any differences in culture between those two?

Any insight as to how the salary scale progresses? Are third and fourth years around $160,000?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:09 am

McGuireWoods and Hunton & Williams are definitely the top. McGuire is more politically conservative in general, but I've heard the hours and Hunton are insane and more people aren't happy. Both pay i think 145. Williams Mullen/Troutman Sanders are the next and then Vandeventer/Woods Rogers/Hirschler Fliescher.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:14 pm

McGuire and Hunton are both at the top, and are somewhat similar. Perhaps Hunton is slightly more established (it's much older, was Justice Powell's firm, etc.), but both are peers. Both are politically conservative. Hunton's hours are, from what I've heard, similar to major-market Vault firms. 2100-2200 hours is expected, which is somewhat unusual for firms in secondary markets. I haven't heard the same complaints about McGuire. You don't necessarily need "ties" to get hired by Richmond firms, but you do need a good reason for wanting to work there. My classmate from NYC was married and wanted to own a house; he didn't have any problem convincing firms that he was serious about working in Richmond even though he had never been there.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby tony2167 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:01 pm

Is no preference for University of Richmond grads in the RVA market? I'm about to wrap up my undergrad at VCU and hoping for UofR law with a scholarship. Am I going to have trouble standing out among UVA/W&M/W&L grads?

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby 005618502 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:14 pm

tony2167 wrote:Is no preference for University of Richmond grads in the RVA market? I'm about to wrap up my undergrad at VCU and hoping for UofR law with a scholarship. Am I going to have trouble standing out among UVA/W&M/W&L grads?


To be blunt, yes.

I mean if you do well at URichmond you will be fine. But you and someone at a better school in the state competing will only hurt you. I think this is with any market though

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:39 pm

tony2167 wrote:Is no preference for University of Richmond grads in the RVA market? I'm about to wrap up my undergrad at VCU and hoping for UofR law with a scholarship. Am I going to have trouble standing out among UVA/W&M/W&L grads?


The guy who first responded to you is correct. But to be honest, it isn't like they aren't selective at UVA. Hunton and McGuire mainly hire from the top 10% at UVA down to top 1/3. When you think about it, that really isn't all that different than what you'll need from Richmond (probably something like top 5 percent + law review).

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby thesealocust » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:49 pm

tony2167 wrote:Is no preference for University of Richmond grads in the RVA market? I'm about to wrap up my undergrad at VCU and hoping for UofR law with a scholarship. Am I going to have trouble standing out among UVA/W&M/W&L grads?


Empiricism, ho!

Hunton & Williams lets you search for lawyers based on school attended.

Lawyers in the Richmond office of Hunton Williams:

U of Richmond: 29
W&M: 33
UVA: 57

So it's pretty clear that they hire from U of R, and probably substantially relative to big firms in other cities. Having said that, based on overall placement in large law firms, it's pretty clear that you have to do very well at Richmond relative to a school like UVA to have a shot at getting such a job - and you'll almost certainly face more competition in the market (roughly 2/3 of UVA's grads head to DC or NYC).

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:52 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
tony2167 wrote:Is no preference for University of Richmond grads in the RVA market? I'm about to wrap up my undergrad at VCU and hoping for UofR law with a scholarship. Am I going to have trouble standing out among UVA/W&M/W&L grads?


The guy who first responded to you is correct. But to be honest, it isn't like they aren't selective at UVA. Hunton and McGuire mainly hire from the top 10% at UVA down to top 1/3. When you think about it, that really isn't all that different than what you'll need from Richmond (probably something like top 5 percent + law review).


pretty much. pre-great recession, uva actually published a lot more data about firms and their hiring practices. the average student interviewing with Hunton & Williams had a 3.41, and only 15% of students interviewing with H&W had bottom third GPAs.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:51 pm

thesealocust wrote:
tony2167 wrote:Is no preference for University of Richmond grads in the RVA market? I'm about to wrap up my undergrad at VCU and hoping for UofR law with a scholarship. Am I going to have trouble standing out among UVA/W&M/W&L grads?


Empiricism, ho!

Hunton & Williams lets you search for lawyers based on school attended.

Lawyers in the Richmond office of Hunton Williams:

U of Richmond: 29
W&M: 33
UVA: 57

So it's pretty clear that they hire from U of R, and probably substantially relative to big firms in other cities. Having said that, based on overall placement in large law firms, it's pretty clear that you have to do very well at Richmond relative to a school like UVA to have a shot at getting such a job - and you'll almost certainly face more competition in the market (roughly 2/3 of UVA's grads head to DC or NYC).


Not really, see my above quote about the grades required from UVA to land those jobs (i.e top 10 no worse than top 1/3 of the class). This line of thinking is quite common on this website and I had it at one time as well. But when you actually start looking at the real hiring data you start realizing that outside of NYC it's often inaccurate. The reality is that outside of NY many markets really don't go that much deeper into the class at top 14 schools (excluding HYS) than they do at the local respected regional. Particularly when you take into account the level of competition at the top 14's. Having to be top 10 at worst top 1/3 from UVA is in truth, awful. You're talking about having to beat out at least 70 percent of a class filled with ivy and comparable phi beta kappa 170 LSAT students.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby thesealocust » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:03 pm

It's just semantics. I said "it's pretty clear that you have to do very well at Richmond relative to a school like UVA to have a shot at getting such a job" - UofR places less than 10% of its class in large law firms like Hunton & Williams, and you yourself said UVA students would be competitive there with grades top third and up (and the school as a whole is still generally placing somewhere like 50%+ of students in large firm jobs).

So you and I can disagree about the significance of that difference in hiring between the two schools, but we're talking about the exact same difference. I'm not suggesting you need to be #1 at U of R or could swing it at median from UVA.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:28 pm

thesealocust wrote:It's just semantics. I said "it's pretty clear that you have to do very well at Richmond relative to a school like UVA to have a shot at getting such a job" - UofR places less than 10% of its class in large law firms like Hunton & Williams, and you yourself said UVA students would be competitive there with grades top third and up (and the school as a whole is still generally placing somewhere like 50%+ of students in large firm jobs).

So you and I can disagree about the significance of that difference in hiring between the two schools, but we're talking about the exact same difference. I'm not suggesting you need to be #1 at U of R or could swing it at median from UVA.


This guy's talking about getting a job in Richmond, so that's all I'm talking about. You're now talking about how UVA places overall vs. Richmond. That's another issue. And just so I'm clear for the OP's sake--top 1/3 was during the boom. Right now it seems that the average UVA hire at Mcguire and Hunton is top 10 percent. I threw in the top 1/3 info to be somewhat positive.

Also UVA sure is hell isn't placing 50+ % in large firm jobs. At least assuming we're talking about 2012 and not 2007.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby thesealocust » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:09 am

Here's data from UVA for the class of 2011: http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm

Here's data from U of R for the class of 2011: http://law.richmond.edu/career/outcomes.html

I wrote out a bunch of stuff, then I realized this point can be made very easily:

In the class of 2011, one student from the University of Richmond obtained employment at a firm with over 500 attorneys.

Hunton & Williams has over 800 attorneys.

McGuire Woods has over 900 attorneys.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby 005618502 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:16 am

BruceWayne wrote:
thesealocust wrote:It's just semantics. I said "it's pretty clear that you have to do very well at Richmond relative to a school like UVA to have a shot at getting such a job" - UofR places less than 10% of its class in large law firms like Hunton & Williams, and you yourself said UVA students would be competitive there with grades top third and up (and the school as a whole is still generally placing somewhere like 50%+ of students in large firm jobs).

So you and I can disagree about the significance of that difference in hiring between the two schools, but we're talking about the exact same difference. I'm not suggesting you need to be #1 at U of R or could swing it at median from UVA.


This guy's talking about getting a job in Richmond, so that's all I'm talking about. You're now talking about how UVA places overall vs. Richmond. That's another issue. And just so I'm clear for the OP's sake--top 1/3 was during the boom. Right now it seems that the average UVA hire at Mcguire and Hunton is top 10 percent. I threw in the top 1/3 info to be somewhat positive.

Also UVA sure is hell isn't placing 50+ % in large firm jobs. At least assuming we're talking about 2012 and not 2007.


I get that you are trying to be realistic, but I feel like all your posts are overly filled with "doom and gloom" even when dealing with a school like UVA.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby uvabro » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:49 am

Sure would suck having to be top 10 at UVa. Everyone is pretty smart and most work hard. I tutored many people at TT's. It really is a head and shoulders diff even outside the LSAT performance - just memory, applying law, etc. it is easier to be top 10 percent at richmond than top 3rd at uva - not even close.

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby 005618502 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:00 am

uvabro wrote:Sure would suck having to be top 10 at UVa. Everyone is pretty smart and most work hard. I tutored many people at TT's. It really is a head and shoulders diff even outside the LSAT performance - just memory, applying law, etc. it is easier to be top 10 percent at richmond than top 3rd at uva - not even close.


Everyone always said this was not true. I visited a friend at Pepperdine, and it sure felt true....

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:45 pm

While it's true that HW and MW have floors around top 1/3, I was able to get callbacks with a couple others from around median. That being said, the process is crazy because there are tons of people from UVA with ties and there are only a few SA spots so tons of other factors go into it. I really think the biggest thing holding back UVA employment wise is that, with a 360 person class and with 40% of the class having an instate tie, too many people end up only having ties to VA/DC w/o the grades or otherwise impressive profile/interviewing ability to make it tenable.

Edited for clarity

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Re: Richmond VA Legal Market

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:43 pm

I think the previous point is on to something. Too many people at UVA only have ties to places where ties don't matter (i.e. DC and NY). That really hurts during the job search process. The only thing worse than that is having below median grades--which obviously 50 percent of the class has. Throw in below median grades with only having ties to DC and NY and you have a perfect recipe for unemployment or a "fellowship".




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