Hanging your own shingles? Forum
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- northwood
- Posts: 5036
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
its the lacking of the ability to know what to do, and how each specific judge and courtroom likes things done in a particular manner that frightens me.
actuallly, i really just want to open up a hamburger, fries, and ice cream parlor that also sells beer.... and name it Tils
actuallly, i really just want to open up a hamburger, fries, and ice cream parlor that also sells beer.... and name it Tils
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
That's fair, but I don't think it's irrational fear.anon168 wrote:I'll put you down as "Fear".dixiecupdrinking wrote:[x] Desire not to commit malpractice
[x] Belief that there are too few people willing to pay for legal services even to sustain established attorneys' practices
I'd like to work for myself, but not in lieu of a guaranteed six-figure paycheck when I've got loans to pay. Obviously I'm fortunate to be in the position where that's the choice.
ETA: Also, endlessly chasing down clients for payment sounds really unpleasant.
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
You think this doesn't go on in biglaw (or even midlaw or small-law when you "exit" biglaw)?dixiecupdrinking wrote:That's fair, but I don't think it's irrational fear.anon168 wrote:I'll put you down as "Fear".dixiecupdrinking wrote:[x] Desire not to commit malpractice
[x] Belief that there are too few people willing to pay for legal services even to sustain established attorneys' practices
I'd like to work for myself, but not in lieu of a guaranteed six-figure paycheck when I've got loans to pay. Obviously I'm fortunate to be in the position where that's the choice.
ETA: Also, endlessly chasing down clients for payment sounds really unpleasant.
Absent working in government, this is systemic in our profession.
- 2014
- Posts: 6028
- Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:53 pm
Re: Hanging your own shingles?
I worked for a solo during UG who probably grossed around 120k in a relatively inexpensive college town. She took out no ads and even turned down quite a bit of business she thought was below her. Basically drummed up all her clients by going to local bar and business association events and joining a couple of committees and did whatever business or property things they needed done.
The idea of hanging a shingle scares me shitless, but it's more feasible than I think people give credit for. It just takes social and entrepreneurial competency imo.
The idea of hanging a shingle scares me shitless, but it's more feasible than I think people give credit for. It just takes social and entrepreneurial competency imo.
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
Fear/lack of capital/lack of know-how really go hand in hand if you're a K-JD deep in debt.
You don't know if you're going to be a good lawyer until you really get out there and try. I applaud those who have the guts to go solo right off the bat, but you don't have to be an anti-social aspie to be scared shitless by the idea. Most people would probably feel differently if lawl skool actually taught practical skills.
You don't know if you're going to be a good lawyer until you really get out there and try. I applaud those who have the guts to go solo right off the bat, but you don't have to be an anti-social aspie to be scared shitless by the idea. Most people would probably feel differently if lawl skool actually taught practical skills.
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
Not disagreeing with you, but if you look at the poll question, it's really geared towards those who are considering dropping out because they struck out at OCI (either as a 2L or 3L).HeavenWood wrote:Fear/lack of capital/lack of know-how really go hand in hand if you're a K-JD deep in debt.
You don't know if you're going to be a good lawyer until you really get out there and try. I applaud those who have the guts to go solo right off the bat, but you don't have to be an anti-social aspie to be scared shitless by the idea. Most people would probably feel differently if lawl skool actually taught practical skills.
Sure, the common sense approach is to take a job with a firm (or government) if you have such an offer unless of course you just have a burning desire to be the next great solo practitioner.
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
Yeah, I hear you. It's the nature of being in a service role (and one that people especially hate paying for). But as a biglaw associate this isn't something I expect to have to worry about. I suppose if I stick around in some form of private practice long enough it'll be my responsibility, but not in the near future.anon168 wrote:You think this doesn't go on in biglaw (or even midlaw or small-law when you "exit" biglaw)?dixiecupdrinking wrote:That's fair, but I don't think it's irrational fear.anon168 wrote:I'll put you down as "Fear".dixiecupdrinking wrote:[x] Desire not to commit malpractice
[x] Belief that there are too few people willing to pay for legal services even to sustain established attorneys' practices
I'd like to work for myself, but not in lieu of a guaranteed six-figure paycheck when I've got loans to pay. Obviously I'm fortunate to be in the position where that's the choice.
ETA: Also, endlessly chasing down clients for payment sounds really unpleasant.
Absent working in government, this is systemic in our profession.
Anyway – just read your most recent update – you're right that you're not really asking about people in my position.
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
That's only in offices where newbies get arraignment calendar ie horizontal representation places, which I think is the exception rather than the rule. Most places you start handling misdo clients and do trials within year 1-2.anon168 wrote:No. Menial shit like IAs and arraignments. All day long. Every day. For weeks on end.Borhas wrote:menial shit like trials?anon168 wrote: Working with another solo is good, no doubt, but nothing is quite like doing it on your own.
PD would be ok if you wanted to do criminal work but so much of what a PD does (at least at the junior level in a state or local office) is such menial shit that it doesn't really amount to much practical experience in terms of private practice.
And when you're not doing that, you're in prison or jail.
Last edited by Borhas on Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Displeased
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:10 am
Re: Hanging your own shingles?
I don't understand why anybody would think a private attorney just starting out gets more real court experience than a PD. A private attorney has to do all the "menial" court appearances too.Borhas wrote:That's only in offices where newbies get arraignment calendar ie horizontal representation places, which I think is the exception rather than the rule. Most places you start handling misdo clients and do trials within year 1-2.anon168 wrote:No. Menial shit like IAs and arraignments. All day long. Every day. For weeks on end.Borhas wrote:menial shit like trials?anon168 wrote: Working with another solo is good, no doubt, but nothing is quite like doing it on your own.
PD would be ok if you wanted to do criminal work but so much of what a PD does (at least at the junior level in a state or local office) is such menial shit that it doesn't really amount to much practical experience in terms of private practice.
And when you're not doing that, you're in prison or jail.
If anything, a private attorney has to do more menial work, since a PD will have interns and secretaries to handle the really trivial stuff.
That's not even counting all the work a private attorney has to do just to get a client and force them to pay. PDs get to focus on pure representation, private attorneys have dozens of other things they have to do just to keep the lights on at the office.
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
That is practical legal experience.Displeased wrote:
I don't understand why anybody would think a private attorney just starting out gets more real court experience than a PD. A private attorney has to do all the "menial" court appearances too.
If anything, a private attorney has to do more menial work, since a PD will have interns and secretaries to handle the really trivial stuff.
That's not even counting all the work a private attorney has to do just to get a client and force them to pay. PDs get to focus on pure representation, private attorneys have dozens of other things they have to do just to keep the lights on at the office.
(And the original question wasn't about "real court experience", but rather "practical legal experience." See http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 8#p5954495. What is that term they use when people re-frame the question when they don't like the answer they're getting ...?)
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
I meant practical legal experience as in the legal side of things, not the business/entrepreneurial side of things (since you already had a box for "lack of entrepreneurial know-how").anon168 wrote:That is practical legal experience.
(And the original question wasn't about "real court experience", but rather "practical legal experience." See http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 8#p5954495. What is that term they use when people re-frame the question when they don't like the answer they're getting ...?)
- Displeased
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:10 am
Re: Hanging your own shingles?
I didn't re-frame the question, you're the one who brought up initial appearances and arraignments, with the clear implication that solo practitioner's time in court is somehow more practical and less menial than a PDs.anon168 wrote:That is practical legal experience.Displeased wrote:
I don't understand why anybody would think a private attorney just starting out gets more real court experience than a PD. A private attorney has to do all the "menial" court appearances too.
If anything, a private attorney has to do more menial work, since a PD will have interns and secretaries to handle the really trivial stuff.
That's not even counting all the work a private attorney has to do just to get a client and force them to pay. PDs get to focus on pure representation, private attorneys have dozens of other things they have to do just to keep the lights on at the office.
(And the original question wasn't about "real court experience", but rather "practical legal experience." See http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 8#p5954495. What is that term they use when people re-frame the question when they don't like the answer they're getting ...?)
And you aren't "giving me an answer" here, we're both offering perspectives. I've worked in enough PDs offices and talked to enough solo practictioners/people in small firms to have my own "answer" on this question.
Its extremely misleading for you to say that a solo practictioner's time spent billing clients, paying office bills, chasing ambulances, and sorting files is more "practical legal experience" than a PDs time in court.
EDIT: I reread your posts. Its possible you are suggesting that being a solo practictioner makes you better at being a solo practitioner. As in, a person who is a solo practictioner for five years will be a better solo practitioner than a person who was a PD for five years and then switches to solo. I actually doubt that's even true, since a solo practictioner will develop bad habits and make mistakes, but with no boss or coworkers to correct them, continue to make those mistakes. Meanwhile, the PD has gotten to hone their skills under the guidance of other lawyers.
Yea, a solo practictioner will have "practical" entrepreneurial skills that a PD doesn't, but those skills are 1) non-legal and 2) only needed if you want to go solo/start a non-law private business.
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
Clients are everywhere. Clients that have decent cases and who aren't unreasonable/crazy and who actually have money to pay you are a little bit harder to find.kalvano wrote:I think it's funny you guys worry abou getting clients. That, there is no shortage of. A regular Joe who needs a lawyer doesn't even know what Baker Botts or Akin Gump is. Those firms never even enter their minds.
I worked for a medium size firm this summer, and my dad is a solo. Clients are everywhere. It's the ability to know what to do and how to do it that a new solo should be worried about.
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- kalvano
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
rad lulz wrote:Clients are everywhere. Clients that have decent cases and who aren't unreasonable/crazy and who actually have money to pay you are a little bit harder to find.kalvano wrote:I think it's funny you guys worry abou getting clients. That, there is no shortage of. A regular Joe who needs a lawyer doesn't even know what Baker Botts or Akin Gump is. Those firms never even enter their minds.
I worked for a medium size firm this summer, and my dad is a solo. Clients are everywhere. It's the ability to know what to do and how to do it that a new solo should be worried about.
True. But there's still not a shortage of them.
- tedalbany
- Posts: 1700
- Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:15 pm
Re: Hanging your own shingles?
What about opening up a non-litigation shop? Like incorporations, small biz services, contracts/licensing/franchising, etc
- kalvano
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
You'll have a far more limited customer base. A lot of solo work is someone who is having a disagreement with someone else.tedalbany wrote:What about opening up a non-litigation shop? Like incorporations, small biz services, contracts/licensing/franchising, etc
- tedalbany
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
But it's also less crowded with competition so iono how it balances out. I just don't know if there's any money in it. I heard you can make pretty sweet money doing evictions and shit, you just have to know someone with lots of properties.kalvano wrote:You'll have a far more limited customer base. A lot of solo work is someone who is having a disagreement with someone else.tedalbany wrote:What about opening up a non-litigation shop? Like incorporations, small biz services, contracts/licensing/franchising, etc
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- kalvano
- Posts: 11951
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
tedalbany wrote:But it's also less crowded with competition so iono how it balances out. I just don't know if there's any money in it. I heard you can make pretty sweet money doing evictions and shit, you just have to know someone with lots of properties.kalvano wrote:You'll have a far more limited customer base. A lot of solo work is someone who is having a disagreement with someone else.tedalbany wrote:What about opening up a non-litigation shop? Like incorporations, small biz services, contracts/licensing/franchising, etc
Beggars can't be choosers. If you can focus your practice a way you like, do it, but if you're going solo without a book of business, you'll need the everyday cases to make money.
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
You can prob make decent money doing evictions and real estate closings. But you also need to know people in real estate. And know what you're doing. You can also make decent money in family law probably, but that is one tough field in terms of dealing with emotions...tedalbany wrote:But it's also less crowded with competition so iono how it balances out. I just don't know if there's any money in it. I heard you can make pretty sweet money doing evictions and shit, you just have to know someone with lots of properties.kalvano wrote:You'll have a far more limited customer base. A lot of solo work is someone who is having a disagreement with someone else.tedalbany wrote:What about opening up a non-litigation shop? Like incorporations, small biz services, contracts/licensing/franchising, etc
- rouser
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
I would think family law is the norm for new solos..yellow page divorce ad. curious as to what else you could market towards? DUI's or something?
- EvilClinton
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
general criminal lawrouser wrote:I would think family law is the norm for new solos..yellow page divorce ad. curious as to what else you could market towards? DUI's or something?
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- rouser
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
yeah maybe try to focus on stuff that has no chance of going to trial but is seen as big deal in client's eyes.EvilClinton wrote:general criminal lawrouser wrote:I would think family law is the norm for new solos..yellow page divorce ad. curious as to what else you could market towards? DUI's or something?
- dr123
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
I know a number of small town solos and most of them seem to do a mix of court appointed/PD conflict cases, DUI's/Gen criminal stuff, family law, and probate/estate planningEvilClinton wrote:general criminal lawrouser wrote:I would think family law is the norm for new solos..yellow page divorce ad. curious as to what else you could market towards? DUI's or something?
- kalvano
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
My dad handles a lot of homeowner disputes. Contractor did a shoddy job on a home build and now won't fix it, that sort of thing.
- 2014
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Re: Hanging your own shingles?
The solo I worked for that I referenced earlier in the thread did almost exclusively this. The extent of her "litigation" was attempts to collect unpaid rent for a couple property managers. So it definitely works, it just requires the ability to network since you need to be in with business owners and entrepreneur types to draw that kind of business instead of average joes opening up the phone book.tedalbany wrote:What about opening up a non-litigation shop? Like incorporations, small biz services, contracts/licensing/franchising, etc
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
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